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what is the deal with cannabis flavanoids?
- Thread starter imachavel
- Start date
they're actually terpenes. there are many derivatives of isoprene, each having unique properties
well, amazingly diverse terpenes then.
in all honesty this plant is genetically amazing. Most plants have smells locked into their genetics, it seems like cannabis can mutate new terpenes at the random change of genetics. There's new flavors of cannabis coming out that the plants haven't even adapted yet. Pretty crazy shit, huh?
in all honesty this plant is genetically amazing. Most plants have smells locked into their genetics, it seems like cannabis can mutate new terpenes at the random change of genetics. There's new flavors of cannabis coming out that the plants haven't even adapted yet. Pretty crazy shit, huh?
this brings up a good question also
how many plants have their genetics locked in place, and how many plants have genetics like weed that can change all the time, at least in one sense. New terpenes means the plants create new molecules, they're evolving and changing genetically before our eyes.
one crazy bud to me is bubblegum, the shit smells EXACTLY like bubblegum! How the fuck? that's nuts, I wonder if the bubblegum flavor existed in packages before it existed in a plant, now it's created naturally in a plant. Useful in ways other than just thc.
how many plants have their genetics locked in place, and how many plants have genetics like weed that can change all the time, at least in one sense. New terpenes means the plants create new molecules, they're evolving and changing genetically before our eyes.
one crazy bud to me is bubblegum, the shit smells EXACTLY like bubblegum! How the fuck? that's nuts, I wonder if the bubblegum flavor existed in packages before it existed in a plant, now it's created naturally in a plant. Useful in ways other than just thc.
LemonScented
Rising Star
is this ability of changing terpenes exclusive to the cannabaceae family? it makes sense, hops have varying smells too... I dunno if its result of cannibis creating new molecules, I think rather it's the result of cross-breeding specific, sweeter than normal plants with ordinary ones. I thought bubblegum didn't taste like gum at all, it was just sweet and not even that much.
the types of terpenoids being biosynthesized probably changes throughout the grow cycle of the plant. furthermore depending on how you dry and or cure your cannabis the terpenoids will change convert evaporate etc. all in all the essential oil contains about 50-60 terpenoids a mixture of mono and sesquiterpenoids predominates.
many plants do this its not unique. terpenoid biosynthesis is complex there are so many combinations that can be made. whats interesting if that the terpenoids are biologically active compounds that most likely are playing a role in mediating the effects of cannabis and THC. for example beta carophyllene a common terpenoid in cannabis was just found to be a CB2 receptor agonist. pretty cool stuff. more work will be coming out in this area soon as its very interesting.
many plants do this its not unique. terpenoid biosynthesis is complex there are so many combinations that can be made. whats interesting if that the terpenoids are biologically active compounds that most likely are playing a role in mediating the effects of cannabis and THC. for example beta carophyllene a common terpenoid in cannabis was just found to be a CB2 receptor agonist. pretty cool stuff. more work will be coming out in this area soon as its very interesting.
LemonScented said:
then you didn't smoke bubblegum
I grew bubblegum, and the finished product smells EXACTLY like bubblegum, without the smell of weed you wouldn't know the difference. Although in the first 2 weeks of flowering, before the cannabis resinated fully, for some reason the buds smelled like juicy fruit, probably as they weren't ripened, so maybe you had bubblegum that hadn't had a full season to flower. If you have RIPE bubblegum, you'll know, there's no mistake. it's the sweetest weed you'll ever smell, almost disgustingly so.
anyway the point I was trying to make is, some of these flavors might not be that old, the genetics might have combined and evolved, that's pretty cool. that's like growing bananas for years, and then after 4000 years you combine 2 banana strains that haven't been previously combined, and they smell like strawberries! that goes to show genetics aren't as set in stone as people think, they don't necessarily take 2 millions years to change.
just a point to make, maybe there's some sequence set in the genetic chain that won't change unless there's a drastic measure. with most plants the drastic measure that would change the sequence so quickly would probably kill the plant, so it's not possible. with cannabis it's simply combining 2 different strains that grow in different areas that might not ever have been combined previously. who knows what discoveries await us
LemonScented said:
in all seriousness i can't get over this. DUDE, that shit is the only weed i've ever smoked that was so sweet it was almost gross. you HAVE to try some CERTIFIED bubblegum. My freind really liked the flavor, i thought it was overpowering, like wrigleys genetically engineered the shit or something.
anyways
deedle-doo
Rising Star
I think cannabis diversity is due to two factors.
1. their weird sexual reproduction. The vast majority of plants are hermaphrodites and/or can asexually reproduce in the wild. Both traits tend to limit diversity. Cannabis plants actually have chromosomal sex determination so they are (almost) always either male or female. This might not seem weird because humans have the same mechanism but it is very unusual in the plant kingdom. This means that individuals are constantly remixing sets of genes in each generation and this can create and manifest diversity.
2. Cannabis has been domesticated. Crazy bubblegum smelling cannabis is the result of extensive breeding and selection. Since cannabis was only domesticated maybe 4000-5000 years ago these new traits are almost certainly not the result of new mutations. Rather, skillful breeding over many generations brought out diversity that was hidden in the wild stock. This is possible because the mechanisms that construct an organism are massively redundant and canalized. Just look at the diversity of domestic dogs for example. They are at least as diverse as domestic cannabis.
1. their weird sexual reproduction. The vast majority of plants are hermaphrodites and/or can asexually reproduce in the wild. Both traits tend to limit diversity. Cannabis plants actually have chromosomal sex determination so they are (almost) always either male or female. This might not seem weird because humans have the same mechanism but it is very unusual in the plant kingdom. This means that individuals are constantly remixing sets of genes in each generation and this can create and manifest diversity.
2. Cannabis has been domesticated. Crazy bubblegum smelling cannabis is the result of extensive breeding and selection. Since cannabis was only domesticated maybe 4000-5000 years ago these new traits are almost certainly not the result of new mutations. Rather, skillful breeding over many generations brought out diversity that was hidden in the wild stock. This is possible because the mechanisms that construct an organism are massively redundant and canalized. Just look at the diversity of domestic dogs for example. They are at least as diverse as domestic cannabis.
deedle-doo said:
yes but that is the point, this plant has been massively domesticated in just 5000 years. Apparently broccolli and cauleflower diverged themselves from a mustard plant through domestication, in just a few thousand years as well. Plants seem to change their genetics a lot more quickly than animals do. Or maybe not but what about bacteria and viruses? they seem to change their genetics in an instant compared to the rate of change in which genetics occur.
isn't this cool? it goes to show we could change all types of shit with genetic modification if we wanted to, it wouldn't just have to be genetic splicing. How we would do that, I don't know. None the less, it's possible. I think we don't realize how much control we have over things changing
Anyway, i'm just saying this is an area that could be studied. A man apparently took millions of years to evolve from an ape, but a broccolli plant took only 4-5000 years to seperate it's genus from a mustard plant, pretty cool, huh?
LemonScented
Rising Star
i guess thats what seperates complex mammals from starchy vegetables. lol, anyhow you're right man, its cool.
This happens because of the generation time factor. Mutations arise when DNA replicates to be passed down to the next generation (and they are ready to face the wrath of selection). Generation time in humans is on average 20 years so it takes some time for us to evolve. Same goes for cattle, pigs, horses etc. Bacteria and viruses can have generation times as little as 20min, so they have the chance to evolve very fast. Plants are so divergent, broccoli can have a generation time of 6 months, whereas 10 years may be required for an oak tree. In that respect therefore plants are not so amazing!
Humans have used eugenics or selective breeding in other words to create so many species of plants like wheat, corn, barley etc. from nutritionally poorer ancestral species. After you sow the seeds and get your crop growing, select the seeds from the plant that has favourable characteristics (like thicker seed, thicker and not so high stem etc) to grow next year. Same goes for domesticated animals, the boldest example being the dozens of breeds of dogs, all coming from the ancestral species called wolf.
it took the wolf about 10.000 years.
plants need to have the precursors (i.e. olivetol, citral, etc. ) to produce cannabinoids, and also the mRNA expression for enzymes to convert these terpenes to cannabinoids. does no good to introduce genes into a plant that has neither the precursors nor the metabolic pathways
deedle-doo
Rising Star
imachavel said:
Yes. That and you can house HUGE numbers so you can isolate very very very rare events. You can reliably select for events with only a 1 in a billion chance because you can easily house 10 billion individuals.
Anyway, that's why people used to use phage for molecular biology. It is not a very popular system today. Today we stand on the shoulders of the phage giants like Delbruck and apply their tools to a host of model organisms.
deedle-doo
Rising Star
benzyme said:
You can transform e. coli with an essentially unlimited number of coding sequences. If we can understand a biochemical pathway, we can reconstruct it in e. coli. Also, if we cannot reconstruct a given biochemical pathway then we do not fully understand it. Plants are a tad trickier but there is no principle that prevents us from transfecting a plant with 100s of transgenes. We just need that plant to be sequenced and easy to grow and breed.
The challenge is not the genetics but the enzymology. Eventually humans may understand how to fold proteins with any form/function. When this happens we will be able to construct novel biochemical pathways and express them in-vitro or in-vivo.
These are the nanomachines; custom protein complexes designed by humans to do specific chemical or physical tasks. This requires only that we master how protein structure emerges from sequence and how protein function emerges from structure. These fields are moving along well and who knows what they'll accomplish within the next 5 years.
geranyl pyrophosphate and olivetic acid are the main precursors for the 5 carbon side chains of most cannabinoid acids. the carboxylic acid functionality is essential for the enzymes to synthesize CBG acid the first cannabinoid in the pathway. then a variety of enzymes can turn CBG acid into THC acid, CBD acid, and CBC acid. a lot of people dont realize that the cannabis plant doesnt actually make THC it makes THC acid. THC is only formed upon storage or heating when the carboxylic acid group is lost as carbon dioxide. thats why if you eat raw fresh weed you probably wont get high because THC acid is not psychoactive.
another issue with production of cannabinoids is even if you have the genes the plant cells wont make it unless there is specific conditions. for example plant cell cultures of cannabis wont produce cannabinoids. many cannabinoid acids are actually cytotoxic to plant cells (and some even kill cancer cells!) and hence need to be excreted into trichomes. so the genetic engineering of cannabinoid biosynthesis into any other plant or microorganism is very difficult. then again a compound like taxol with an very complex biosynthetic pathway is being currently being put into e coli which is just amazing if that succeeds.