What receptors when DMT is not psychedelic anymore?

[murklan]

Might be an odd question. But I've experienced a big change of how DMT works for me during the last 2,5 years of getting 'familiar' with it. And where I am now I don't feel much of the classic psychedelic effects at all, or only very briefly.

I some of you might have read in my posts I've been wondering what I'm doing different or how I've changed. I'm curious if any one of you have any insights

From what I gathered by reading is that it's not uncommon that long time users of inhaled DMT (but it seems different for long time ayahuasca users) to have changes in their experiences. Loosing the visuals seems to by quite common. I always use DMT together with rue in different amounts, sublingual or more often orally. I usually load 18-28mg DMT at a time in my Bat GVG and repeat the doses 3-5 times during a night.

My experiences the last year is not really psychedelic, not the fractal, colorful, visions of other realities. This used to be a treat but not the reason why I kept coming back, it was rather the state of mind, the expanded consciousness, the novel perspectives and insights, and the emotional connections I got. I can still experience some of that but it's surely in a different way.

What has been the trajectory is to more and more go into some kind of deep state of rest or dream (without images). I feel clearly 'drugged' and have to lay down and close my eyes. I feel positive in a way, like that myself get put aside for awhile. My longing, dreams, fears etc. But it also feels like another drug completely and that I almost is doing a dopamine releasing substance (but I don't have much experience of that).

So my question. Do any of you know what receptors that might be responsible for this change? It seems like DMT effectcs 5-HT2C and 5-HT2A (and 5-HT1A, 5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, 5-HT2B, 5-HT6, 5-HT7) receptors but that something has changed in me so that the usual effects don't happen. Something is clearly happening but perhaps only by some of the receptors?

But I've also had the recommendation to try DMT without any MAOI to see what would happen. SO this I did. I also did it by inspiration and quite spontaneous (as opposed to how I usually prepare me and my place for a DMT journey). A little high on cannabis I loaded 35mg in the GVG, metitated and put on some calm and nice music. And then tried to get it all in in one big inhale. I have large lungs so I usually manage.
It started a bit faster then with an MAOI but still not the strong visuals I remember. Bits of reality/my room where shifted or replaced but that was just in seconds before I had to lay down and close my eyes. Did not see anything visual but I got a strong notion of that reality re-started, and that it was done that on purpose of an 'upgrade' by an external force. That my decision to spontaneous trip was introduced from outside. But not in a controlling or bad way. I've had this feeling before, that my reality is only one of many and that there are some kind of 'external' process that chooses just the reality I experience.

Anyhow I re-dosed a few times ~35-40 mg and went into a deep state of.. .yes. Darkness and calm, in a intense way. Passed out or fell asleep after some time. Got up and made the bed for sleeping. Had a good night sleep.

I have some ideas on what is happening but it's not so much of the pharmacology. I suspect that after long time use of inhaled/vaped DMT my lungs do not absorb the molecules as before. This and that the mind/receptors are gotten used to it. The latest mushrooms trips has not been visual either (some stronger colors and light sensitivity) but 200 μg LSD made me experience them again.. (but not so strong).

Glad of any thoughts around this

 

[murklan]

In my experience, a permanent tolerance or resistance develops to more-or-less every drug after a while of frequent use.

I don't think picking at fuzzy abstractions like receptor activity is realistically going to help you find a way to undo this, unless you're actively taking or doing something that's interfering with the action of the drug.

Thanks for your reply. I'm not primarily seeking to undo this, just trying to perhaps understand a bit of it. Like how it can still be active but in a quite different way. And also because DMT is supposedly not building a tolerance. As seen with the long time and frequent ayahuasca users.

 

[Levanah]

I have some ideas on what is happening but it's not so much of the pharmacology. I suspect that after long time use of inhaled/vaped DMT my lungs do not absorb the molecules as before. This and that the mind/receptors are gotten used to it. The latest mushrooms trips has not been visual either (some stronger colors and light sensitivity) but 200 μg LSD made me experience them again.. (but not so strong).

Glad of any thoughts around this

I'm experiencing the excact same issue and don't think your ROA theory is the reason.

I suspect it could have something to do with 5HT2-A receptor de-sensitisation (and/or more complex bio-chemical adaptions). The mechanisms of action besides the knowledge that DMT acts on 5HT2-A receptors are not yet understood.

I have taken DMT daily for over 2 months via IM (intra-muscular injection).

In the beginning I needed 32mg, later 45mg-60mg and while 45mgs gave me strong visuals in the beginning it is just a mellow experience without visuals today.

So my conclusion: There indeed IS a tolerance building with DMT especially when used DAILY or very frequently.

I sincerely hope that the old magic can be restored through a longer break of consumption.

Even when I dosed higher in the past days - up to 100mg - while the experience itself could be harsh and strong on my energy-body and nervous system - there wasn't this kind of "3D Hyperspace Visual WOW Scenario" I had in my first DMT experiences.

I also made the observation that several DMT IM sessions (lasting about 30minutes) in a row led to a decrease in effect intensity. The first session was always the best and the following sessions were rather mellow and needed higher dosing.

So there seems to be a short-term tolerance and a long-term tolerance.

I initially wanted to write an own thread "How I healed myself from Post-Covid Fatigue - A journey of healing the soul through catharsis and mind expansion and observations on my path". Maybe I'll do that in the future.

All I can say that I suffered severe post-viral fatigue after a covid infection in june and I figured that one single simple 30minute DMT IM experience could get 100% rid of the fatigue for the day.

So I made it a daily morning ritual, a daily 30 minute morning DMT session/meditation.

Through the daily "energetic cleansing process" of my energy-body I got so much energy, inspiration and feelings of lightness out of it that I not only cured my post-covid fatigue but it also completely enhanced my life and mood to a state of high energy vibration, confidence and stamina I had not felt ever in my life.

I felt like I had changed myself and my life for ever through this intense period of daily ceremony. I did much spiritual practice and studying in that time also. It was perfect for integration. On some days I even did three or four sessions.

Eventually the very pronounced effects and benefits on my life faded. Also the anti-depressent effects faded. I hoped for a long time effect on my mood and drive because of my "hard tryptamine work / soul cleansing". I thought and hoped the benefits of my newly achieved energy level might stay for ever even without doing DMT daily.

But somehow the sessions became more and more mellow. The benefits of doing the blessed Spirit Molecule faded.

I'm not doing it daily anymore, stopped for days, a week and now two weeks. Have yet to test if a normal dose which used to be visual before will get visual again.

When I dosed very high, up to 100mg, I also had the feeling that it did not really deepen the trip but that my nervous system was just overwhelmed. It did not feel very healthy, it just felt like I have taken too much, it did not deepen the trip, it just made it more harsh and yeah - maybe like "burning through the fine energy-system and its electric and microtubial circuits"?

If that's the case I hope that the potential "damage" or "change" (if its not a normal time dependet and reversal tolerance) will be healed by the body. The body is a master healer so I have high hopes.

Still I must admit that my first DMT experiences were much more colorful and spacier than the latter ones...

I never did the DMT IM experiences with Harmalas / MAO-A inhibition as I have a rare disease called MCAS (mast cell activation syndrome) and tryptamines were a trigger for my mast cells (leading to allergic reactions like skin stinging all over my body). I need to take anti-histaminics and also have to inhibit COX (prostaglandines) and LOX (leukotrienes) to tolerate DMT without any issues.

My wide spectrum of health problems due to a disease are also the reason why I'm doing DMT via IM ROA and why vaping or oral are not an option for me. I'm working myself in the field of regenerative medicine and prepare sterile solutions regularly. So I kindly ask the readers of the forum to not criticise or discuss my ROA in a negative way here. I'm just saying this because I have seen many prejudices and untruths in other threads by some ill-informed injection-phobics. Doing DMT via IM turned out to be the most supreme, clean and easy ROA in my case.

In the last few days the wish has arisen to try Harmalas again to achieve a deep, balanced and well modulated experience again and the thought that DMT is not meant to be used without Harmalas and not meant to be used for high dosings and flooding the receptors. Although I never experienced a "breakthrough" in all my experiences, even with IV dosings above 50mg that normally should have led to a breakthrough. Some experiences were very intense, maybe like a little breakthrough. But I never felt that I really hitted the breakthrough point. I also never experienced DMT machines elfs, other entities and such things.

I experienced deep personal and archetypical healings, mainly by working through what I can best describe as tensions of energy or patterns of condensed energy experiences.

My theory that or hope that the missing harmalas where the key to profound experiences again as DMT and Harmalas maybe are made for each other and that Harmals are even necessary for a balance in the nervous system are a bit diminished by murklans experience that the fading of DMT effects happened to him also with Harmalas.

So maybe we need just time.

But with other drugs I have experienced permanent changes in effect. For example with nitrious oxide. When I was a teenager - 16 years ago or so - nitrious oxide always caused a ringing in my ears - a phenomenon sometimes referred to the nitrious oxide helicopter sound. After less than 100 nitrous oxide capsules or so this effect completely faded. And even after more than a decade of not using nitrous oxide and just recently testing it again. The helicopter sound never came back.

I hope the DMT magic and pronounced benefits will come back!

My advice to others based on my current experiences: Better not take it daily for a long time, take breaks and don't dose too high (better take more harmalas to deepen the trip) as the nervous system might not be made for high doses of DMT.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I can't really speak for any other ROA than oral when it comes to DMT, since my level of Changa experience isn't nearly as deep as that of my oral experience, and i haven't yet tried pure smoked DMT. What i will say first though, is that if your main thing is visual or entities, you're going about DMT the wrong way, imo.

DMT's visual aspect seems to be largely overemphasized, at least ime, and perhaps it could be because i'm used to the Huasca (Harmalas being in the mix), and perhaps it's because i'm not much of a visual person and plus i think i have some sort of Aphantasia even though i get dreams, i've had two precognitive visions, and i do get some closed eyed visuals from DMT and other Psychedelics, it's just not a visual experience for me, neither DMT nor other Psychedelics are particularly mentally/third eye visual for me even though i can get open eyed visuals just fine, so for me the experience isn't about visuals, it's about the body, mind, emotions, different states of consciousness, mystical/spiritual stuff, medicinal uses, therapeutic uses, and overall just as a really variable tool, but far from being primarily visual for me personally, and i don't really get much in the way of entity stuff either, not that i'm discounting that but that also seems to be an aspect that people go into DMT looking for, but that's not what DMT is really about, at least in combination with Harmalas, where DMT is more of a neuromodulator than a gateway to some alien world, which perhaps that's just smoked DMT in itself (without Harmalas), but Harmalas allow you to access DMT's fuller potential.

I think a lot of people's problem when it comes to DMT, is that they approach it more as a visual or entity encounter experience, or even an "out of body" experience and end up missing out on most of the other aspects of this molecule and of ourselves.

As for tolerance, so far neither proper Changa, nor oral Huasca, seems to have tolerance for me. When i first started out with this stuff back in 2012, i took Harmalas and DMT orally (in the form of Rue and Mimosa/Acacia) daily/near daily for 4 years straight, it never lost it's magick, never lost it's effects, i did become more accustomed to it and it become more manageable, and it did seem like after awhile it was moreso up to me to do things with it, rather than me laying there and it doing things to me, so like for awhile there it was in the drivers seat, but then when i was where i needed to be, i was given the keys, and from there it was up to me to explore and experiment around and try out different things and see what all i could do with this stuff. So at that point it did largely become more about my mindset/headspace, rather than the effects of the DMT, since i had to navigate my headspace into these different states that DMT can help us induce, which makes sense imo because if effects are forced on you, it doesn't really give you many options for where the experience can go, but when it's up to you, it becomes a bit more like meditation or yoga in that you can "do things" to induce different states or emotions.

Now, i'm not dismissing the potential for brain adaptions and changes/shifts and certain effects going away, i know for a fact that when Harmalas are taken regularly, even though there's a reverse tolerance in which each dose at the same dosage gets stronger and stronger, over time the Harmala's side-effect profile cleans up which is likely do to some sort of tolerance to the side-effects at least, so the bodyload and headspace cleans/clears up, the motor function impairment is reduced/goes away, the nausea/vomiting/potential diarrhea goes away (in fact, i become more constipated with regular Harmala consumption, but can get some diarrhea at first), and overall the Harmala aspect feels cleaner and more manageable/user-friendly/medicinal. As for the DMT, i do feel like the brain adapts to things after awhile, however DMT's main effects, medicinal properties, state inducement, emotion enhancement and even precognition/ESP, was still there in year 4 of my regular, daily/near daily oral consumption. So some effects might go away, or certain things may change as time rolls on, but there doesn't seem to be true tolerance ime and the DMT has never lost it's magick, in fact, anytime i go into it unless i'm specifically taking a lighter dose, i'm always brought right back into things, remember everything, the magick is there, the connection is there, higher consciousness is there, weird freaky shit is there lol...

So idk, there must be something about oral DMT vs other routes, or the Harmalas really are playing an important role, and possibly people may just not be using enough Harmalas, personally i go high to heavy on the Harmala side, that way i only need enough DMT to get the job done for a fully immersive, Harmala-dominant/based experience. So it could be that people aren't using enough Harmalas? Idk. Also when it comes to my Changa experiences, the Changa definitely is more of a heady experience whereas orally things are more full bodied, and so perhaps with the smoked route getting more DMT into the brain vs taking it orally where it goes everywhere including the brain, perhaps it may lead to greater desensitzation? Like i said, for me Changa hasn't ever lost it's effect but i do usually have a good bit of Harmalas in the mix, and never had an issue orally, so it could just be a pure smoked DMT thing? But idk how that'd translate over to IV/IM ROA.

 

[Voidmatrix]

When was the last time you took a break and how long did the break last?

I share in some aspects of your experience, in that there are times when I have experiences like you've described, primarily being without a visual component. At the same time, I get visuals when I don't mean to (hypersensitivity). Granted, also, in my periods of daily use, I am also not doing as much as you are because it tends to be therapeutic and healing intended when I am doing it daily.

I am really curious if you were to take a month or more away from DMT (or even tryptamines all-together), and came back how your experience would turn out.

One love

 

[Levanah]

Some news from me:

Yesterday after posting I decided to do another DMT IM session.

I can't comment on the dose-effect tolerance because I took Moclobemid (MAOA-I) this day.

However I can say with 100% security that the visuals these days are very very dark. There really is a deep blackness to the CEVs which can get almost scary and spooky.

I tried not to "judge" the CEVs but it made me actually even a bit sad that it seems that the purer and faster moving shapes, the 5D spaciness and lightful colors I had in my first DMT experiences are currently not longer achievable.

Like ShamensStamen said, DMT was never about visuals for me.

Still - there is indeed a MAJOR change beyond placebo in how DMT works for me today. It all happened within some months of use.

The second half of the trip even displayed me visuals that I can best describe as "broken visuals". Very hard to describe but nothing like coherent organic shapes.

Since doing DMT I am and was going through and working through different processes.

There is still the possibility that I'm working through such a "black energy pattern" for many, many, many sessions now and that it will dissolve at some point and the lightful colors and organic patterns with come back.

But it feels more like my biochemistry has changed.

Also I felt usually in deep peace after each session and today the experience often feels some kind of imperfect, unfinished and not rounded in the end.

Normally when I'm doing a session in the evening / at night and wake up the next morning I'm loaded with blissful energies, inspiration and zest for action. This benefit faded. Maybe it is still there a little bit.

 

[nitrogenaztec]

It's quite likely that the only "solution" is to "do something else" for a long time.

As in... "try to find meaning or purpose in life" with similar intensity... but without psycheelics, for some years... And not use psychedelics.

Just a guess!

I think that the only solution will be "some years without tripping".

But if you just get into a "hole" and "don't feel that magic" without drugs... you won't feel that magic ON drugs either. If you can rebuild that magic with no drugs involved... for some years? It might be the solution.

 

[murklan]

Thanks everybody for such thoughtful and sincere replies. I want to try to write and address each one of you, but that would be lengthy and in danger of being procrastinated. So I'll just start now and see how far I get.

I suspect it could have something to do with 5HT2-A receptor de-sensitisation (and/or more complex bio-chemical adaptions). The mechanisms of action besides the knowledge that DMT acts on 5HT2-A receptors are not yet understood.

I have taken DMT daily for over 2 months via IM (intra-muscular injection).

In the beginning I needed 32mg, later 45mg-60mg and while 45mgs gave me strong visuals in the beginning it is just a mellow experience without visuals today.

Aha, that is interesting! Have not read about someone else doing it IM so many times in short time. That is good information to find out more abut any 'tolerances' or changes after prolonged use. I'll think over my suspicion about changes in uptake in the lungs.

Even when I dosed higher in the past days - up to 100mg - while the experience itself could be harsh and strong on my energy-body and nervous system - there wasn't this kind of "3D Hyperspace Visual WOW Scenario" I had in my first DMT experiences.

Yes I see and recognize it too. But I have not increased the doses of DMT, rather that I have increased the amounts of hamalas I use together with it. I don't think about the early ""3D Hyperspace Visual WOW Scenario" so much, but surely were they a part of what made my relationship with DMT stronger. Experiences that I never had anything like before. But that amazement was during the first year transformed into a deeper more personal and emotional meaningful part of the experience. That part was not very visual at all. I associate it with Harmalas and how they for me have a equally important role as the DNT in the experiences/teachings.

So I made it a daily morning ritual, a daily 30 minute morning DMT session/meditation.

Through the daily "energetic cleansing process" of my energy-body I got so much energy, inspiration and feelings of lightness out of it that I not only cured my post-covid fatigue but it also completely enhanced my life and mood to a state of high energy vibration, confidence and stamina I had not felt ever in my life.

Wow! I don't think I could have started the day with how I've taken DMT. Usually 3-4h long sessions that are heavy on the harmalas. Just want to go to sleep after that
Interesting what effects it had on you. Sounds like if it was an important part of your healing. But to stop with the medicine when it time to, can surely be difficult. There are no ending of the parts in us that we want to work on.

I also never experienced DMT machines elfs, other entities and such things.

Me neither. I've felt presence but no encounter. Have been curious about it but also not important in any way.

My theory that or hope that the missing harmalas where the key to profound experiences again as DMT and Harmalas maybe are made for each other and that Harmals are even necessary for a balance in the nervous system are a bit diminished by murklans experience that the fading of DMT effects happened to him also with Harmalas.

So maybe we need just time.

I think the similar experiences we have tend to show that there is a change over time. But at least for me can the effects be just as strong as in the beginning with roughly the same amounts (little more over time). I thing therefore that it is not only a 'receptor wide' (or I don't know anything about that) tolerance but a change in character. So to say. Harlamas and/or MAOI's maybe brings out these less classic-DMT effects.

Time yes...

Writing about that. Have to stop writing now, but I'll be back soon for more!

 

[Ice House]

Take an break and look to the Granfather of all medicine for the answers. In my experience you will find the answer there. There are many great answers to your questions in this thread. None of us can really know for sure. Grandfather Huachuma will know.
Cheers!
IH

 

[Randomness]

I found that the more often I did DMT the more mellow the experience became. I never did it every day though. One thing I did experience was that after doing a fair amount of DMT over the years mushrooms no longer seemed to have any effect.

Have also done quite big DMT sessions before where I have consumed 500mg + over the course of 60-90 minutes. During those sessions I always found that I hit a point where DMT would totally stop working and I would need at least a week or two away for things to settle back to normal.

 

[murklan]

I found that the more often I did DMT the more mellow the experience became. I never did it every day though. One thing I did experience was that after doing a fair amount of DMT over the years mushrooms no longer seemed to have any effect.

Have also done quite big DMT sessions before where I have consumed 500mg + over the course of 60-90 minutes. During those sessions I always found that I hit a point where DMT would totally stop working and I would need at least a week or two away for things to settle back to normal.

Good to read more experiences from people.
I've never done in daily, at the most every week. But as I wrote I've usually done it as a long session together wit harmalas. Long duration and around 100 mg DMT in total. I guess that also effects the 'tolerance', the longer the exposure to the substance.

Sound disheartening about the mushrooms also being effected. I'm not doing mushrooms very often, 5-6 times in a year perhaps, but I've noticed that I don't get as strong visuals. But the are still 'working'.

I'll write back to the other replies in this thread soon.

 

[Fridge]

I have noticed that every substance I worked with has changed it's character over time. It also seems like there is some interaction between them, one influencing the other and vice versa. When I discovered DMT for example it had an effect on how mushrooms and cannabis worked on me. Luckily it changed to the better.

That being said, I had a stretch when DMT wouldn't give me visuals, only a very challenging physical sensation (a prickly feeling running down my body as if I bath in sparkling water coupled with something that felt like 180 heartbeats per minute). After that I took a month break from DMT. I tried it again recently and everything is back to "normal".

My personal experience is that whenever I used any of these marvelous tools too much it looses it's magic. Be it mushrooms, DMT or cannabis. As long as I do everything in moderation I am getting most benefits out of the experience.

So giving it a little break got me back on track and I hope you'll be able to visit places again soon, murklan.

 

[Deleted member 73149]

I'm resurrecting this thread mainly to say that it is heartwarming to find other people with like experiences.

I remember the very first vaped DMT freebase experience I did in 2009. I was 20 years old and within 15 seconds I was in hyperspace, a golden goddess, some holy/healing water running over me, I was so amazed I did not percieve further details. Easily the best experience of my life. A couple hours later I tried again and little did I know I was in for the worst five minutes of my life. I was a black stone with pores from which a black blob was pouring, I thought I pissed my pants and repeatedly asked my friend if it was the case, it wasn't but it surely felt so.
I had flashbacks in the form of nightmares for a couple of weeks, like waking up at 3 am totally panicked.

After that, for a long time, weed was the only thing I could stand, and I felt my relationship with it actually improved because I didn't experience anxiety/palpitations from it anymore. Numerous times I did LSD and mushrooms with friends, taking the same amount as them and saw them tripping hard while I was only mildly inhibriated.
Later I quit weed and booze (I never was a huge drinker anyway) and tried again with psychedelics to no avail, except for DMT that still puts me in a different place, albeit not visual or only mildly so.
On the other hand I'm very sensitive to MDMA, less than 100mg suffice me for an entire night of energy and love and usually cannot sleep until the late afternoon of the day after.
I don't know what's going on and I'm not worried because I still find DMT very useful and enjoyable, but I'm curious as to the possibility of reverting back to a "native" state.
I don't think it's tolerance because I didn't do DMT for 12 years and the other psychedelics in between were like twice a year.

 

[northape]

@Sabnock1990, It's like I myself wrote your response; even time-wise it correlates with my experience. Are you my alter ego?

You can look at this issue from an eastern perspective. How clean is your subtle (psychic) body? Pranayama and Qigong were developed specifically to clear and balance the energy body. It would be nice to test out, but I think doing Qigong would clear these knots in our energy channels to see again. In many traditions, they use special rituals and techniques to open the sky door.

The problem outlined in this thread is my next project for medicine work. I feel coming at it from an eastern perspective would bring more benefit than guesswork about any receptor activity. These two systems most likely have something in common, but the east has a longer history working with the mind.

 

[Deleted member 73149]

Tried again my candy/vaporhuasca approach yesterday.
I tried to cram a huge amount of vapor in my lungs in a short amount of time, but after a while I hit a ceiling effects-wise. Minimally visual and somewhat intense body-wise. It lasted 8 minutes and on the comedown I vaped again and I reached the exact same level. It lasted again 8 minutes but the comedown felt more meaningful. I vaped one single puff after 40 minutes from the beginning and again it brought me up there, making me realize I wasted most of the spice before and that level is my actual limit.
After about one hour I fell asleep while still mildly intoxicated and I woke up ten minutes later very relaxed but without the usual sensation of bliss and connection.
Usually after a session I have magnificent dreams that I remember, but not this time, I feel like my mind blacked out for the whole duration of my sleep and today, albeit being still very relaxed, I feel longing for those beautiful and useful insights that normally derive from my sessions. I mean, I can do away with the visuals, but I think I need the rest, or is the medicine doing its work nonetheless?