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What's the point of trying to lose our egos?

Migrated topic.
RAM

RAM

Hail the keys!
I have a tendency to be very wordy, so I have edited both this post and its title to get to the core point of what I am asking.

I have been kind of losing my ego lately as a result of using a lot of drugs, meditation, thought experiments, yoga, and various other spiritual technologies. A medical professional might call it depersonalization, but I really feel like there is a greater goal on the other side. But really, what good is a result when you aren't there to have it?

Here are the questions I want to discuss here:

1. Have you ever felt this, and how did you deal with it?

2. What is the point of dissolution of the self? If there is no self, what is there to even accomplish this goal of ego death? Why do it at all?

I look forward to the discussion. :)
 
I may differ in my definition from some others here, but ego death for me outside the psychedellic experience tends to draw my attention on the moment & experience rather than myself. Full immersion in the life experience if you will 8)

The benefit for me is basically the magic in everything comes back & simple things bring very much entertainment & happiness, almost as I you were a young child again.
 
The ego filters and contorts everything to suit its tyranny and delusions. Losing the ego allows one to see things as they truly are, or at least in different ways than what you're used to in your normal, everyday state of mind.
 
I feel ego death is another name for transcending ego and the boundaries that govern ego. And do we really 'loose' our ego or only temporary? For me, psychedelics have reduced the potency of ego mind and opened a whole new universe of awareness that didn't exist within my perception before. If the point of having these incredibly profound experiences is to solely 'defeat' or 'lose' the ego in any way, I can see why one would be agitated or perhaps frustrated in crossing that threshold. It is like throwing a dart at an already existing dart on the board. The point, really, is to pull out the existing dart and to see it for what it really is. These experiences are still incredibly mysterious to us. We simply don't know. Beauty is seen within that, though. The unknown magnitude of these experiences are teachers that are all-encompassing. Ego is there, in all of us.. but it is not in control. That is what psychedelics open us up to, I think.

The psychedelic/entheogenic experience is awe-inspiring and ever-dissolving the boundaries of what I presently know and don't know. Which is where I see a lot of potential. Almost like the light between the two paradoxes. Shifting my attention towards other aspects of consciousness such as openness, empathy, compassion, love, kindness and appreciation, even briefly during these experiences, does alter the effects I can resonate with. If you love a flower, don't pick it. In other words, if you love the direct experience of psychedelic expansion, don't try to control or induce anything. Allow the substance to take over. Welcome it and it'll verify, directly, any aspects with ego that need attention. 😉

Hope any of that made some sense. Just some thoughts..
 
RAM said:
I have a tendency to be very wordy, so I have edited both this post and its title to get to the core point of what I am asking.

I have been kind of losing my ego lately as a result of using a lot of drugs, meditation, thought experiments, yoga, and various other spiritual technologies. A medical professional might call it depersonalization, but I really feel like there is a greater goal on the other side. But really, what good is a result when you aren't there to have it?

Here are the questions I want to discuss here:

1. Have you ever felt this, and how did you deal with it?

2. What is the point of dissolution of the self? If there is no self, what is there to even accomplish this goal of ego death? Why do it at all?

I look forward to the discussion. :)
Click to expand...

Here is what I see. I promise this all adds together into a response to your inquiry! :d
Eternal omniscience is incompatible with existence. Why?
What is Existence?
Existence is Love.
Existence is Cooperation.
Existence is Symbiosis.
(but on with the point) hahahahah
Existence is like a Wave.
Waves have crests and troughs. Now, imagine an ocean waving.
Each wave rises, each wave falls. This is called seeing the texture of the ocean, the waving of the ocean.
Now imagine a circular square. Boom! What happened? If successful, see 1. If mentally itched, see 2.

1. LIES

2. Just as one cannot imagine a circular square, because one knows the two distinctly simply and solely by contrast,
the same is true when we wish to imagine a wave that only has crests, or only has troughs. We can't have half a wave.
Existence is that way. This is the background of an insight that there isn't a difference between death and life.
This realization is finding immortality.
"How would you know you were alive unless you'd once been dead?"

Eternal omniscience is incompatible with Existence.
Knowing All is equivalent to the immediate anamnesis of the secret of life:
To know who you truly are forever and ever was never a divine endeavor.
You committed yourself in the beginning of no-beginning to lose yourself into time,
so that you could not know you're God and not God at the same time.
Because that is what eternity is brother. And that is what you are.

Get lost. is the point.
Whatever you are doing. is the point.
Every path is the right path.
Every life lived is of the Light.
At source, we are the Source.
Knowing not Tao, we are the Tao.

Anyway, I suppose, to answer the question, you have just discovered why there is no such thing as ego death.
Because he who sleeps on the floor never falls out of bed.

The ego is the moving dim shadow across the edge of the forest.
 
Ego = survival mechanism. IMO.
Like many assets it's outcome depend, no one way to nail it.
One might need it desperately to function and survive while on another moment it might be self destructive. Just like money one has to learn to wield it I think.
 
I think that the Ego is necessary.
It gets a bad rap but isn't that just because of some people who seem to be dicks and their ego is obvious.
Just a thought :)


Jees said:
One might need it desperately to function and survive while on another moment it might be self destructive. .
Click to expand...
I Concur :)
 
You can be opened up to more information.
When you are in this space, you can learn and bring back knowledge to use in life.
Otherwise it is pointless other than just to have the experience.
 
Ego is the root for humanness. To have an ego is to be self centred. To feel happy, sad, angry etc. these are all self-centred emotions. These all come from ego. Is ego bad? Not at all. What is bad is when ego defines a person. The ultimate ego death is death itself. We can not let go of ourselves as long we still breathe, unless we induce it through psychedelic means. But that is not a permanent solution. Which makes it incredibly valuable to assess oneself. Taking psychedelics has greatly increased my meditative states when sober. Once you've seen the destination, it becomes easier to start the journey.

Learn from your own ego and from others. Know that ego is essentially the most superficial part of the soul. Learn to let it go, so you may temporarily digest the true essence of being. Once you learn that, you cannot unlearn it. It will pervade through you, even when your ego flares up, and it will be what calms you down.

Having an ego is just as important as letting it go.
 
Bodhisativa said:
Taking psychedelics has greatly increased my meditative states when sober.
Click to expand...
Same here. Vine Changa puts me in a deep state of meditation. It's some thing I was never looking for but really appreciate .
 
Thanks for all of the responses; I am still processing a lot but wanted to comment on a few ones that I have been thinking about in particular.

Cognitive Heart said:
And do we really 'loose' our ego or only temporary? For me, psychedelics have reduced the potency of ego mind and opened a whole new universe of awareness that didn't exist within my perception before. If the point of having these incredibly profound experiences is to solely 'defeat' or 'lose' the ego in any way, I can see why one would be agitated or perhaps frustrated in crossing that threshold. It is like throwing a dart at an already existing dart on the board. The point, really, is to pull out the existing dart and to see it for what it really is.
Click to expand...

Anamnesia said:
The ego is the moving dim shadow across the edge of the forest.
Click to expand...

Jees said:
Ego = survival mechanism. IMO.
Like many assets it's outcome depend, no one way to nail it.
One might need it desperately to function and survive while on another moment it might be self destructive. Just like money one has to learn to wield it I think.
Click to expand...

DeltaSpice said:
I think that the Ego is necessary.
Click to expand...

Bodhisativa said:
Ego is the root for humanness. To have an ego is to be self centred.
Click to expand...

Fascinating viewpoints! It makes a lot of sense to me that the extreme ego death we so often pursue with psychedelics is not really a sustainable solution. From these quotes, I have more-or-less extrapolated that the ego is a necessary thing if we want to survive on this physical plane.

Just this weekend I watched a great movie called Life of Pi. In it a boy is stranded at sea with a tiger and has to learn to live with the tiger. I couldn't help but psychoanalyze the entire film, and I imposed my view on the film that the tiger was in fact the boy's ego (technically his Id if using a Freudian lens, but his ego using ours). He admits himself that he would have died without the tiger, and in one scene where the tiger falls overboard and is about to drown, he chooses to save it.

So from how I see it, while the ego is a very dangerous device that can "eat us up," it does play a vital role; it helps keep us alive! However, the other parts of our soul (the ones to which Bodhi indirectly alluded) need to keep a very tight leash on the ego and make sure it does not get out of hand and take over our lives.

Regarding my personal life, I have been better able to identify where my ego is acting out lately. I am starting to see how I can manipulate when I choose to use and feel my ego, and I am also able to isolate specific benefits from doing this. I can satisfy my ego when my favored team wins at sports, but I can surpass my ego when I start discussing something with someone that could potentially turn into a useless argument.

It truly is fascinating to be able to live in such a manner, but I can see how some might view it as hypocritical or even pardoxical. How can I have such extreme desires and opinions sometimes, that are let go of completely during my night meditation? I suppose life is just filled with paradoxes. :d
 
Bodhisativa said:
Ego is the root for humanness. To have an ego is to be self centred. To feel happy, sad, angry etc. these are all self-centred emotions. These all come from ego.
Click to expand...

So the happiness that babies and animals seem to express because they have egos?

Is there a difference between the feelings we have as a natural reaction to what we perceive, vs. the feelings that are the product of thought/ego/self-importance?

What about the happiness one feels during a mystical/ego-loss experience?

Is the ego a genuine or false sense of self?

Just some food for thought...😉
 
A bit late to the party...

Maybe over simplified, but the ego for me is very wrapped up in the map of the world that I have in my head. When I think about someone I love, I generally think about the image I have of them in my head instead of the actual person -- that is ego. Conceiving of an isosceles triangle is an example of extreme ego, because it doesn't exist, except as a conception.

Although we need ego to survive (there is no future when living outside the ego), the trouble with ego is that we often mistake the mental map for reality.

I believe the irony of a DMT trip is that it is actually very much about the ego, and yet helps break down the ego at the same time. Similar to the isosceles triangle, the DMT trip is all in your head (I am not one who believes there are actual entities in the direct sense). Having the mind create such a vivid and complete alternate reality shocks us into the realization that the 'reality' we live in is just another mental construct, just another hallucination.

The realization causes 'ego death' or a 'little enlightenment.' In that mentally disrupted space, we make new mental connections and let go of burdens that felt weighty before, because they have no reality outside of the mind.

We can't live in the world without ego, though. It's pretty hard to drive a car if you experience the world only as sensory input-- it's helpful to know that a beeping horn means "Look out!" We must come down off the mountain of enlightenment.
 
I think some of the problem is with terminology. Ego is a pretty new concept and it can end up meaning a lot of things. A lot of people use it to mean the extreme traits of self-protection and self-aggrandizement - trying to maintain your self-importance basically. Modern psychology then tries to sort the problem of how this can work within society and how an individual can feel alright about itself. None of this interests me really; just so much wiseacring, prolongation of suffering.

Far more interesting is what Advaita/Non Dualism has to say on the matter. This says that any idea of being an individual, a person, of "being me" (in the limited use of the word) is just a construct. It came into being sometime early in life and somehow subsumed a small amount of all the manifestations-in consciousness, called it "I" and then put that into opposition with the rest which it called "not I" or "the world" (hence the creation of dualism). There's sort of no way of proving this "I" exists so it has this impossible task of having to maintain an illusion with nothing to substantiate it but believing it will cease to exist/die if it doesn't. This is the cause of endless suffering. If the illusion ever drops however then it all simply becomes "things happening in consciousness". "Things" are transitory and have a relative reality. Consciousness is all encompassing and has total reality. In fact, with the illusion dissolved, it's seen as boundless and as the One Thing, Aliveness, Perfection, Love - satchidananda as it was called in the Vedas of ancient India.

Faced with the option of boundless bliss in eternity or living a tortured existence defending a non-existent construct then you'd think most people would go for the former. Well I guess therein lies the problem: how can a non-existent construct, a person, decide it's not going to be a non-existent construct - it's just not going to happen. The dream character can't wake itself up from the dream. Welcome to the ultimate paradox, the origin of a 1000 zen tales, the "seeker's" exasperation and in my case a 40-year search.

So there's not an answer to this. If there were, then Bliss Inc. would be selling it for $1000 a shot (actually a quick Google search shows you they already are!). But life or the universe or god or something has its unexplained gifts - call them grace, call them what you will, but nothing to do with an imaginary person achieving something - and these can transcend the illusion of being a person. The astounding thing is that certain entheogens like dmt can pass through the gateless gate (yes, I did say dmt could pass, not you on dmt). What happens when that uncomfortable construct reappears a seeming 10 minutes later is where the real value lies.
 
For me, attempting to lose the ego is for one simple reason:

To see inside myself without "me" getting in the way. Like becoming one with something greater than ourselves or our ego. When there is no self, there is only consciousness/energy which brings about its own set of emotions completely separate from this waking reality, IME.

I've never really tried to kill my ego on purpose, it just seems to happen on those really powerful journeys. I have found it to be completely terrifying at times while at other times it has been a heavenly experience. Everyone needs a good dismantling every once in a while! 😁

I feel like it breaks us, as humans, down to our core, allowing for clearer insight on anything and everything. It also seems to me that ego loss is really only important to those who try and integrate the experience. I mean, you could lose your ego and bounce back almost instantly and have nothing to show for it. Nothing inherently wrong with that, I suppose, but why subject ourselves to such extreme experiences if we are not going to look for some sort of answer within ourselves afterwards?

I think the question boils down to whatever the answer is to you in the following equation:

Self - Ego = {Insert Desired End Result Here}

:d

I could be far off but nonetheless, that is my 2 cents.
 
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