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Where to get Zinc for Reduction (preferably local sources)
- Thread starter Apoc
- Start date
US pennies, post-dated 1982, are copper-coated zinc.
(97.5% Zn/2.5% Cu)
(97.5% Zn/2.5% Cu)
benzyme said:
cool cool..... so then wouldn't the copper coat prevent the zinc from doing its intended work? Are you saying that pennies can be used in a zinc reduction? Anyway, I don't have American pennies, so I'll have to find another source.
yes, I am saying that.
but I'm not suggesting you do anything illegal (defacing american currency is illegal) :roll:
but I'm not suggesting you do anything illegal (defacing american currency is illegal) :roll:
The Day Tripper
Rennasauce Man
You could either try and get a hold of some pre 82' pennies and grind off the top bottom, or perhaps find a buffalo zinc bar at a local jewlery/coin shop.
But really, zinc powder is the best option, as you get much more surface area. If your using a strong hcl solution, perhaps zinc chunks could work, they would just take a long time to dissolve. With vinegar or a weak acid i doubt it would work very well with anything but zinc powder. It dissolves into the hcl solution, so the smaller the particulate, the better.
IDK where you would find it locally, perhaps research into its uses, and see if theres any shops that specialize in said uses near you. online seems like your best bet unfortunately.
But really, zinc powder is the best option, as you get much more surface area. If your using a strong hcl solution, perhaps zinc chunks could work, they would just take a long time to dissolve. With vinegar or a weak acid i doubt it would work very well with anything but zinc powder. It dissolves into the hcl solution, so the smaller the particulate, the better.
IDK where you would find it locally, perhaps research into its uses, and see if theres any shops that specialize in said uses near you. online seems like your best bet unfortunately.
benzyme said:
well thanks benzyme, I know you know you're chemistry.... so may I ask how to do it? Do I just chuck a bunch of pennies in vinegar or hcl with my spice? Or would I have to scrape the pennies up or something to get the copper off? Also, if there is copper in with the mixture, could that result in an unwanted chemical reaction? Have you, or know of anyone who has successfully done this? THANKS!
or use aluminum foil shavings.
the goal is to hydrogenate, you want to convert the n-oxide..use aluminum in muriatic acid.
aluminum chloride will precipitate. then you basify and pull your spice with an NPS
the goal is to hydrogenate, you want to convert the n-oxide..use aluminum in muriatic acid.
aluminum chloride will precipitate. then you basify and pull your spice with an NPS
that's a closed system.
if you contain it, yes it will explode. it's an exothermic reaction evolving hydrogen.
it won't explode if you leave the system open.
I've scored a penny before and added it to a beaker with HCl. it evolves little bubbles of hydrogen gas.
aluminum has a greater reduction potential than zinc, so the reaction will be more exothermic.
if you contain it, yes it will explode. it's an exothermic reaction evolving hydrogen.
it won't explode if you leave the system open.
I've scored a penny before and added it to a beaker with HCl. it evolves little bubbles of hydrogen gas.
aluminum has a greater reduction potential than zinc, so the reaction will be more exothermic.
benzyme said:
I see, cool cool.... Has it been shown, in practice, to work to convert oxidized spice to good dmt?
Just to make sure I have the method down because this chemical stuff always concerns me...
is the spice added to the solution after the alumium / acid reaction, or can it be added before/during? Does the aluminum chloride have to be filtered out before adding base, or will it just harmlessly sink to the bottom of the mixture and not affect anything? THANKS!!!
the aluminum chloride will precipitate and stay in the aqueous phase.
you'll want to dilute the HCl, so you won't ignite anything. pH of 4 would be fine.
add your dmt and aluminum shavings. when it stops bubbling, the rxn is done. then you may basify and extract.
you'll want to dilute the HCl, so you won't ignite anything. pH of 4 would be fine.
add your dmt and aluminum shavings. when it stops bubbling, the rxn is done. then you may basify and extract.
))))))))))))))
one more question if I may benzyme, or whoever else knows. OK, I tried the hcl and aluminum thing. I mixed about half hcl and vinegar in a jar, and put in a bunch of aluminum foil. After a minute or so there was an intense reaction with a lot of bubbling and dark smoke. I was afraid it was going to explode or something. It smelled very strong. My bathroom still smells 12 hours later. After it calmed down, the remaining aluminum foil was a very dark color, almost like it burned. And the remaining liquid is this dark grey sludge.
I am hesitant to put spice in there because it looks and smells so nasty, I am just wondering if I did something wrong. Like use too much aluminum? How much aluminum is needed? I basically stuffed as much as I could in there. If you put too much, does the reaction become out of control and burn or something?
Also, does the dmt have to go in during the aluminum reaction, or can it go in after? I ask just because I'm not certain exactly how the dmt oxide gets de-oxidized. Is it the reaction that occurs, or the result of the precipitate, which THEN reacts with dmt? Just wondering. THanks.
I am hesitant to put spice in there because it looks and smells so nasty, I am just wondering if I did something wrong. Like use too much aluminum? How much aluminum is needed? I basically stuffed as much as I could in there. If you put too much, does the reaction become out of control and burn or something?
Also, does the dmt have to go in during the aluminum reaction, or can it go in after? I ask just because I'm not certain exactly how the dmt oxide gets de-oxidized. Is it the reaction that occurs, or the result of the precipitate, which THEN reacts with dmt? Just wondering. THanks.
Thats an awful lot of acid for what I assume is a small amount of aluminum apoc. All you need is three molar equivalents of acid relative to your aluminum for it to fully react. You don't need the vineagar, HOAc is not going to react with aluminum very well, stick with HCl. You can dilute your HCl though, to slow the reaction, ideally with an alcohol (MeOH, EtOH or IPA). Stirring occasionally is also a good idea. For Al/dmt ratios I would use 3X molar XS of aluminum relative to your dmt oxide. Also use a container with lots of head room, sink it into an ice bath if the rxn gets out of hand. Using heavy duty foil will also slow the rxn down.
Your spice needs to be in the reaction while it is taking place, so add it to your solvent before adding your acid. It is the nascent monatomic hydrogen atom being generated by the Al/HCl that will displace the oxygen atom, thus the reduction.
The dark (burnt) aluminum you see is what aluminum really looks like. The HCl has removed the layer of aluminum oxide that naturally forms on all aluminum in the atmosphere. It cannot generate hydrogen until the oxide layer has been removed by the HCl.
Your spice needs to be in the reaction while it is taking place, so add it to your solvent before adding your acid. It is the nascent monatomic hydrogen atom being generated by the Al/HCl that will displace the oxygen atom, thus the reduction.
The dark (burnt) aluminum you see is what aluminum really looks like. The HCl has removed the layer of aluminum oxide that naturally forms on all aluminum in the atmosphere. It cannot generate hydrogen until the oxide layer has been removed by the HCl.
Try this procedure for a more controlled reaction Apoc
1.) Dissolve 10g dmt oxide in 250mls alcohol (MeOH, EtOH, or IPA)
2.) Add 51g of muriatic acid to solution
3.) Add 3.82 g of aluminum slowly as small strips at such a rate as to maintain hydrogen evolution with stirring, this could take a couple hours.
note: hydrogen evolution will slow towards the end as your acid will be largely consumed, and your solution will have turned into a thick grey slurry.
4.) Add 250mls of 25% NaOH
5.) Extract with NPS of choice 3X
10g dmt oxide (49mmol)
3.82 g Al (147mmol)
15.87g HCl (441mmol) = 51g 31% HCl
MW Al: 26 g/mol
MW HCl: 36 g/mol
MW dmt: 188 g/mol
MW dmt oxide: 203 g/mol
1.) Dissolve 10g dmt oxide in 250mls alcohol (MeOH, EtOH, or IPA)
2.) Add 51g of muriatic acid to solution
3.) Add 3.82 g of aluminum slowly as small strips at such a rate as to maintain hydrogen evolution with stirring, this could take a couple hours.
note: hydrogen evolution will slow towards the end as your acid will be largely consumed, and your solution will have turned into a thick grey slurry.
4.) Add 250mls of 25% NaOH
5.) Extract with NPS of choice 3X
10g dmt oxide (49mmol)
3.82 g Al (147mmol)
15.87g HCl (441mmol) = 51g 31% HCl
MW Al: 26 g/mol
MW HCl: 36 g/mol
MW dmt: 188 g/mol
MW dmt oxide: 203 g/mol
FYI - zinc is also easily available from boating stores as sacrificial anodes cheaply which can be ground up.
but in my experience with dissolving zinc reductions your need extremely small particles of zinc (powder) or the reaction stalls. Experiments with home ground zinc did not work well. In the end I ended up getting zinc powder from a chemical suppllier
but in my experience with dissolving zinc reductions your need extremely small particles of zinc (powder) or the reaction stalls. Experiments with home ground zinc did not work well. In the end I ended up getting zinc powder from a chemical suppllier
If you still wanted to use zinc, you could (Hypothetically, of course.) Heat the pennies with a propane torch, (Held with plyers) until the penny begins to bend. Zinc melts at a much lower temperature then copper, when the zinc becomes molten, you can quickly tap the penny on a hard surface (like concrete) and the blob of molten zinc metal will plop out of the copper casing, and will quickly solidify on the cool surface. This leaves you with zinc without any copper coating whatsoever.
