Why we believe in gods

[burnt]

This is an excellent talk about how our nervous system is capable of imagining the existence of gods and other supernatural forces.

Its titled Why we believe in gods by Andy Thomson.

I think this clearly shows how our brain is also capable of not only imagining things like gods but also projecting images of those beings as well as making the communication seem more realistic under the influence of psychoactive drugs. Another shot in the foot for the existence of elves :lol:

 

[SpasticSpaz]

I've always been surprised by the number of people who find spice corroborates the idea of some sort dualism between spirit and body. To me it seems to so powerfully indicate how very physical the origins of our consciousness is; by introducing a purely physical substance to interact with the also physical receptor complex within our brain, we are able to effect dramatic changes in our consciousness.

 

[xantus]

I've always been surprised by the number of people who find spice corroborates the idea of some sort dualism between spirit and body. To me it seems to so powerfully indicate how very physical the origins of our consciousness is; by introducing a purely physical substance to interact with the also physical receptor complex within our brain, we are able to effect dramatic changes in our consciousness.

there is a niggling point between conciousness and perception.

I feel my perception changes wildly through psychedelics. all of the radical changes occur in the sensory field. but the inner monologue thinking me..what feels like conciousness, does not change at all. that feels like the most compelling thing about aya/dmt/etc.. you are still 'you' while you sense all manner of things that you don't normally sense.

 

[Spock's Brain]

This is an excellent talk about how our nervous system is capable of imagining the existence of gods and other supernatural forces.

Its titled Why we believe in gods by Andy Thomson.

I would be willing to wager that if you polled the speaker and the audience at this featured conference as to how many of them have done mushrooms, DMT, or ayahuasca, you'd find that few or none of them have...

A few powerful psychadelic trips would cast more than a few doubts in the minds of these strictly materialistic thinkers...

I'd like to have seen an audience member raise their hand and inquire, "have you ever done enough magic mushrooms that you've thought that you've died, and beyond? Have you ever smoked DMT?"

 

[40oztofreedom]

This is an excellent talk about how our nervous system is capable of imagining the existence of gods and other supernatural forces.

Its titled Why we believe in gods by Andy Thomson.

I would be willing to wager that if you polled the speaker and the audience at this featured conference as to how many of them have done mushrooms, DMT, or ayahuasca, you'd find that few or none of them have...

A few powerful psychadelic trips would cast more than a few doubts in the minds of these strictly materialistic thinkers...

I'd like to have seen an audience member raise their hand and inquire, "have you ever done enough magic mushrooms that you've thought that you've died, and beyond? Have you ever smoked DMT?"

I wish that would be possible. But so many of those strict materialistic thinkers feel as if any mind altering substance is the work of the devil. And that because it is a "mind altering" substance, that anything we believe after the trip is only a "illusion". Because anything projected by drugs is bad.

In my opinion it is completely backwards.

I feel bad for those who miss out on such a beautiful realm.

 

['Coatl]

Nice, thanks for posting!

 

[burnt]

I've always been surprised by the number of people who find spice corroborates the idea of some sort dualism between spirit and body. To me it seems to so powerfully indicate how very physical the origins of our consciousness is; by introducing a purely physical substance to interact with the also physical receptor complex within our brain, we are able to effect dramatic changes in our consciousness.

Agree and this kind of research as well as many other exciting things going on in neuroscience these days are showing that. Like the speaker said the conflict between religion and science is becoming unavoidable.

I would be willing to wager that if you polled the speaker and the audience at this featured conference as to how many of them have done mushrooms, DMT, or ayahuasca, you'd find that few or none of them have...

A few powerful psychadelic trips would cast more than a few doubts in the minds of these strictly materialistic thinkers...

I'd like to have seen an audience member raise their hand and inquire, "have you ever done enough magic mushrooms that you've thought that you've died, and beyond? Have you ever smoked DMT?"

It doesn't necessarily matter. Psychedelic drugs produce powerful experiences. No doubt about it. People then take the experience they have under the influence and just say "I saw god" or "that must be what god is like" or "wow everything is one". But thats just an interpretation that many people mistake (in my opinion) as being supernatural.

Psychedelics show you what you are and who you are. They show you what your brain is capable of doing and whats it capable of not doing (meaning sometimes you gain or lose perceptions of various things or confuse them etc). On its own the psychedelic experiences confirms nor necessarily denies the existence of anything supernatural hence why so many supernatural beliefs developed around them in the past and still today. What does begin to confirm the lack of anything supernatural is the findings of modern science concerning the history of the universe and our understanding of how the brain works and how it can trick you into seeing or thinking basically anything.

Psychedelics can be just as misleading as religion and its important for people to understand that. I always fear that ayahuasca or some other weird drug will one day be used for government mind control of a population. Not flat out mind control but for example I view certain churches who use ayahuasca to communicate with the christian god (or any god for that matter) as brain washing people even if it has positive outcomes overall for those people.

 

[deedle-doo]

This was a fascinating take on the biological origin of spirituality. I think he kinda downplayed the possibility that this 'sense' was actively selected for after it was established by all the co-option and cross-linking mechanisms he proposes.

If spirituality has been independently selected for then it will never go away unless the human population is broken up so we are in smaller, more isolated groups. So I think the question becomes: is cosmology and natural history a compelling enough narrative to satisfy the spiritual sensibilities of humans? For me it is. I think as this alternative narrative becomes increasingly rich more and more people will get on board. Part of the problem with accepting cosmology and natural history as spiritual narratives is this is a very deep and complex body of knowledge. We need better early science education to empower people with minds that can learn such complex topics.

This is why all the Ra, 2012 gobblesmack is popular. People know the old narratives are bullshit and they are desperate for new narratives that can satisfy both their spirits and their analytical minds. They paint a cartoony picture of cosmology and natural history as their narrative because it is possible to grok the cartoon after listening to a podcast or reading a web-page. It takes real work to gain an understanding of real cosmology or natural history.

 

[MalargueZiggy]

Psychedelics can be just as misleading as religion and its important for people to understand that. I always fear that ayahuasca or some other weird drug will one day be used for government mind control of a population. Not flat out mind control but for example I view certain churches who use ayahuasca to communicate with the christian god (or any god for that matter) as brain washing people even if it has positive outcomes overall for those people.

Good point man. And of course that idea has already occurred to the government, look into the case of Gail Cameron.

If I've learnt anything from using these substances, it's the complete absence of certainty (and that that isn't a bad thing).

In terms of that video, although interesting, it didn't offer me anything earth shattering (but then I'm an agnostic). Even if the capacity for religion is hard wired into our brains because of evolution, that still doesn't answer the fundamental questions: how did the universe begin and what happens when we die.

Yes we are highly evolved creatures and hence we have the capacity to ask those questions, but that capacity in itself doesn't remove God in any sense that I think of God.

For me it's simple; how can a mind that cannot even comprehend the distance between ourselves and our nearest star, let alone how far we are from the centre of our own galaxy, let alone the size of the universe, come to any kind of true and definite understanding of what may or may not have created it all?

 

[burnt]

So I think the question becomes: is cosmology and natural history a compelling enough narrative to satisfy the spiritual sensibilities of humans? For me it is. I think as this alternative narrative becomes increasingly rich more and more people will get on board. Part of the problem with accepting cosmology and natural history as spiritual narratives is this is a very deep and complex body of knowledge. We need better early science education to empower people with minds that can learn such complex topics.

It is for me too.

In terms of that video, although interesting, it didn't offer me anything earth shattering (but then I'm an agnostic). Even if the capacity for religion is hard wired into our brains because of evolution, that still doesn't answer the fundamental questions: how did the universe begin and what happens when we die.

Your right it doesn't necessarily answer those questions. Other things lead to one view or the other. For example we can still see energy from the big bang so that does really point to the universe being hotter and denser a long time ago. That doesn't mean it started from nothing thats still in question but it does mean that it grew and still is growing.

About what happens when we die we have no real reason to believe anything happens. Near death experiences give some evidence but I think certain aspects of human consciousness have not completely shut off yet during a near death experience even if the person is "clinicallY dead" for while. Also the fact that drugs can induce near death experiences to me makes them less interesting a case for a soul. I cannot disprove the idea of a soul so easily even though there is no evidence it exists but anything form of soul I am saying would not be supernatural.

I think the energy that makes up our bodies and mind is what was once called the soul. In some form it may live on forever but I don't have any reason to believe my consciousness will live on forever. There is nothing supernatural about that explanation so I dunno if it could even be considered soul anymore because to me soul implies something supernatural.

 

[Garulfo]

I cannot disprove the idea of a soul so easily even though there is no evidence it exists but anything form of soul I am saying would not be supernatural.

Burnt, I appreciate your logical mind and lucidity. I notice that you often use the word "supernatural" opposed to the "natural" one.
It is quite obvious to me that there is no supernatural world, this idea of a transcendental world can only be a mind creation, a belief, probably built to avert the fear of death created by the mind.
But that does not mean that the 'natural' world is'nt "magic and mystery". The simple fact that we are perceiving entities is magic. It is not supernatural, it is the basis of natural but in itself it is a mystery.
That mystery is the source of the God idea. I guess that religions are created from people who had a clear visions of that mystery but that vision is captured by other's people mind who makes it fit with their own beliefs.
Then that other peoples create religions, dogmas... and they need the "idea of God" for that purpose. Ideas are like genes, they can be transmited, reinforced. And because such ideas fit with mind fears, they are quite succesfull since thousands of years :roll:

Clear vision can not be transmitted but it can be experienced by everyone. Even if science would one day 'explain' it, that would not change the full magic of it.
As an analogy, science can explain (somehow) an orgasm as a nerve signal chain reaction. But knowing it does not make the orgams less enjoyable .

 

[burnt]

^^Haha yes I agree. It is a beautiful world when looked at in the right light.