2 friends with odd experiences. Any ideas?

[MachineElf88]

Hey guys, would like some opinions on the following -

1) A friend has done mushrooms, Ayahuasca and DMT on separate occasions and got almost no effect. He did Ayahuasca with a group that I have done it with on many occasions and they are totally legit and their Aya is extremely strong. He did it over 3 days with them and got almost nothing. The mushrooms he did on his own but he said he did a large dose and got nothing.

He has done DMT on his own and said he got no effect. He came to me for advice and I told him that I would make sure he took it correctly. He has done it with me supervising him on more than one occasion, enhanced leaf and pure DMT, and I know he is taking it correctly. He's tried it in a Plenty Vaporizer and also straight from a pipe where I vaped it for him carefully with my torch lighter.

He's taken amounts that are double or triple to what get other people to a breakthrough and got nothing at all. The last time I gave him 50mg and then 80mg (which I know is an insane amount) and he got no effect. I'm baffled. The only thing I can think is that he's blocking it psychologically. He's not on any medications or anything like that.

2)Another friend smoked DMT one night and was fine afterwards and then the following evening woke up at 1am and was right back into a DMT state for 6 hours. He said he could feel the strong body effect and had visuals that varied in depth. It was extremely unpleasant for him because he couldn't sleep, he was trying lots of things to make it stop. My thinking is that his third eye opened. His pineal started producing DMT on it's own.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

 

[travsha]

You already covered no medications....

My guess would be that they have more of an energetic block then a psychological one. That may not be something you believe in, but I have worked with people who have this issue before. Had 2 guys who both drank Ayahuasca 8+ times in Peru without any effect. Everyone else had strong effects so it wasnt the Ayahuasca. Found out both of them had strong spirits attached to them - and it took removing those spirits to open up their experiences with entheogens.

Both of the guys in that particular story had effects from mushrooms and LSD, but not Ayhausca or San Pedro until the spirit was removed. I think this was the spirit trying to defend itself - LSD made the spirit stronger because it allowed it a better foot hold, but the more protective and purgative medicines threatened it, so the spirit tried to block those medicines.

Only other people I know who had zero effect from psychedelics were on meds....

 

[wolf8312]

Another friend smoked DMT one night and was fine afterwards and then the following evening woke up at 1am and was right back into a DMT state for 6 hours. He said he could feel the strong body effect and had visuals that varied in depth. It was extremely unpleasant for him because he couldn't sleep, he was trying lots of things to make it stop. My thinking is that his third eye opened. His pineal started producing DMT on it's own.

His pineal started producing DMT? Has it been established that the pineal gland does in fact produce DMT? Wasn’t that just one of Strassmans theories?

I think I’ve heard somewhere that for some people it just won’t work. Anyone confirm this? I met a guy who told me ecstasy never worked for him either.

No idea how that could happen to your other friend though it may even have been a psychotic episode of some sort strongly reminiscent of the DMT.

DMT is a weird creature though and I found myself that it didn’t work properly for a long time until I was attuned. I am now highly sensitive to it and need far less than I once did. In the beginning what would be unthinkable doses today had very little effect.

Still it does sound that for your friend it simply doesn’t work!

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Has it been established that the pineal gland does in fact produce DMT?

An increasing body of evidence suggests that this is likely to be the case. Perfused rat pineal glands have been shown to produce DMT (and an array of other tryptamines and betacarbolines), while enzyme analysis has shown that this is equally possible in the human pineal gland, IIRC. References for this are scientific papers posted here at the Nexus.


Other than that I have little to say about the OP's friends' anomalous experiences - or indeed the lack thereof - although the first person sounds like a remarkable specimen! I'd back up wolf's comment that "DMT is a weird creature", it sometimes just refuses to work for some reason.

 

[Hiyo Quicksilver]

My thinking is that his third eye opened. His pineal started producing DMT on it's own.

His pineal started producing DMT? Has it been established that the pineal gland does in fact produce DMT? Wasn’t that just one of Strassmans theories?

An increasing body of evidence suggests that this is likely to be the case. Perfused rat pineal glands have been shown to produce DMT (and an array of other tryptamines and betacarbolines), while enzyme analysis has shown that this is equally possible in the human pineal gland, IIRC. References for this are scientific papers posted here at the Nexus.

Can't we all find some rather more creative and rational conclusion than to assume that the pineal gland is just dumping massive amounts of DMT into the system?

Proof that DMT is present in the pineal (of rats), does not show at all that it is directly synthesized there, nor that it's anything more than a component of tryptamine synthesis by-products if this is even the case.

Are you taking into consideration the amount of DMT it would take to have a full-body effect for six hours? This is even assuming that the brain is also producing whatever cocktail is required to keep the mind in that state for that long... The list of assumptions involved here is far too long for the idea that this phenomenon is caused by massive DMT production in the pineal, specifically. At least at this point in time..

Besides.. This really isn't that uncommon of a phenomenon, regardless. Both cases are frequently reported enough to call them an utterly commonplace reaction to the drug, ime.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Just to clarify, I'm not assuming anything. I just felt like answering wolf's question because I have a bit of a one-dimensional chemistry fetish

 

[AcaciaConfusedYah]

You already covered no medications....

My guess would be that they have more of an energetic block then a psychological one. That may not be something you believe in, but I have worked with people who have this issue before. Had 2 guys who both drank Ayahuasca 8+ times in Peru without any effect. Everyone else had strong effects so it wasnt the Ayahuasca. Found out both of them had strong spirits attached to them - and it took removing those spirits to open up their experiences with entheogens.

Both of the guys in that particular story had effects from mushrooms and LSD, but not Ayhausca or San Pedro until the spirit was removed. I think this was the spirit trying to defend itself - LSD made the spirit stronger because it allowed it a better foot hold, but the more protective and purgative medicines threatened it, so the spirit tried to block those medicines.

Only other people I know who had zero effect from psychedelics were on meds....

Would you mind elaborating on the selection in bold? I am very curious to hear about this.

 

[T.Harper]

?assume they are of normal body weight?



some people are really psychically guarded, its beyond chemistry and some minds can develop interesting plastic and novel routes of protection.

My try doing some breathwork with them??? Something that pushes their own body to its own limits not some substance that is viewed as an other or an outside force.

careful when the substances do take hold... it could be that past trauma is holding the control system together.

 

[pitubo]

careful when the substances do take hold... it could be that past trauma is holding the control system together.

For this reason, psycho-emotional safety is a vital ingredient of fertile trips, especially on first trips. The absence of this safety may cause an intensification of existing traumas.

 

[travsha]

LSD made the spirit stronger because it allowed it a better foot hold, but the more protective and purgative medicines threatened it, so the spirit tried to block those medicines.

Would you mind elaborating on the selection in bold? I am very curious to hear about this.

Not sure what you want me to elaborate on exactly... Can you be more specific about your question? Do you mean this persons specific story/experience?

 

[pitubo]

LSD made the spirit stronger because it allowed it a better foot hold, but the more protective and purgative medicines threatened it, so the spirit tried to block those medicines.

If I may chime in: I'm curious how lsd is less protective, in general or in relation to spirits. How does it allow spirits a better foothold? Does the same hold true in your estimation when lsa or an extract from hbwr seeds is consumed instead of (human synthesized) lsd? Is there a mechanism, a principle or a guideline in determining the protectiveness of a substance/medicine/sacrament?

To be honest, I have little affinity with "the spirit world". In your opinion, are spirits guided by rational principles and mechanisms (even if we may not yet understand those)?

 

[AcaciaConfusedYah]

LSD made the spirit stronger because it allowed it a better foot hold, but the more protective and purgative medicines threatened it, so the spirit tried to block those medicines.

Would you mind elaborating on the selection in bold? I am very curious to hear about this.

Not sure what you want me to elaborate on exactly... Can you be more specific about your question? Do you mean this persons specific story/experience?

Pitubo actually started some good questions, similar to mine.

I am curious: what about LSD makes it more prone to "feed" the troll, rather than remove?

I've had some extreme purgatory experiences on LSD. But, I also feel like I may have a higher sensitivity to LSD than I do to Mescaline and Pharma/aya.... so I would also like to know about that person's specific conditions and circumstances that put them in that position.

What role do some of these different spirits play in the person life? Are they happy people? are they sick? Are they curious? What is that person's role in the spirit's world? Host? Friend? Family? Its own self, maybe under a different set of circumstances and conditions?....

 

[travsha]

If I may chime in: I'm curious how lsd is less protective, in general or in relation to spirits. How does it allow spirits a better foothold? Does the same hold true in your estimation when lsa or an extract from hbwr seeds is consumed instead of (human synthesized) lsd? Is there a mechanism, a principle or a guideline in determining the protectiveness of a substance/medicine/sacrament?

To be honest, I have little affinity with "the spirit world". In your opinion, are spirits guided by rational principles and mechanisms (even if we may not yet understand those)?

Are spirits guided by a rational principle or mechanism.... Are people? I think people have spirits too.... To me a spirit is anything with consciousness of some kind. Some may be more or less physical then others. Just my perspective - others can believe whatever their perspective tells them.

I would say there are multiple factors in the specific story I was talking about that led to LSD being less protective. A lot of it has to do with how they were taking LSD compared to how they took plant medicines.

When they did LSD their intention was to have fun, to feel care free, and to party. They would do this at home or at parties without ceremony or ritual. So I would consider this opening yourself up in a unprotected environment - which isnt automatically bad or anything like that, but is different from the ceremony I will describe next. If you have a spirit attached to you and bothering you, then opening yourself up without any protection in big crowded places with lots of other energies might not be the best idea.

With plant medicines these particular people took them in a ceremonial context and with the intention to fix certain issues, and once they felt they had this spirit their intention became to specifically remove the spirit. Both people showed up before any ceremony thinking they had an energetic intrusion and both eventually found out in ceremony that this intrusion was a very nasty spirit. So both had a few ceremonies with no visions or anything - in my perspective this was the medicine prepping them. Then the medicine finally opened up after about 8-9 ceremonies and they saw a nasty spirit which they then had to deal with..

The ceremonies were scaring the spirit because it was losing control so the spirit was then lashing out in an effort to save its own ass by scaring them out from ceremony. No one else working with these curanderos is having similar ceremonies - everyone else is having healing, insights, bliss, challenges ect....

Another valid point I think.... I have seen exorcisms done with plant medicines a few times. I have seen physical healing done with plant medicines. I have seen emotional and mental healing done with medicines and chemicals. I have not seen exorcisms or physical healing done with chemicals like LSD. I think it would be possible but harder to get the same depth of results for certain issues with chemicals then with plants - based on what I have seen.

Maybe that answers your questions? At least why these two substances were having different effects in this particular context...

 

[travsha]

I can maybe share one more related story...

I spent 4 days backpacking in a foreign country. On the second day I took LSD and on the 3rd day I drank San Pedro that was grown on the land I was hiking.

The LSD day I felt like the forest was testing me - asking who I was to be doing ceremony here and call on the spirits of the forest.... This forest was not sure of me and kept prodding me to see how I would react. It was trying to test me.

The cactus day the forest was totally different - it accepted me and supported me. I had the feeling like San Pedro was an intermediary between me and the spirits of the forest - it vouched for me and helped us harmonize together.

Now this story you could easily chalk up to my perspective.... Maybe you might say my beliefs colored the experience. Maybe it did, but I dont think so. In the past I used to have very helpful insight and emotional healing from LSD so I respect it. I have had way deeper experiences and healing with plant medicines though - especially after I started including more ritual and working with curanderos.

 

[AcaciaConfusedYah]

Thanks for taking the time to share your story, travsha. Very interesting perspectives, and you answered many of the questions, except I am still curious of some "sure-sign" symptoms of a "nasty" spirit.

Would someone even know that they had one of these along with them? You said they came to the ceremony BECAUSE of the spirits, rather than discovering them during the ceremony. What was is that led these people to the conclusion of invasive spirits? I am genuinely curious, imagine if a child is just simply trying to understand.

"How would one identify that they have a malicious spirit riding along with em?"

 

[travsha]

Thanks for taking the time to share your story, travsha. Very interesting perspectives, and you answered many of the questions, except I am still curious of some "sure-sign" symptoms of a "nasty" spirit.

Would someone even know that they had one of these along with them? You said they came to the ceremony BECAUSE of the spirits, rather than discovering them during the ceremony. What was is that led these people to the conclusion of invasive spirits? I am genuinely curious, imagine if a child is just simply trying to understand.

"How would one identify that they have a malicious spirit riding along with em?"

I wouldnt say there is a "sure sign" symptom. There are some common symptoms, but those could sometimes be another issue rising up - its not always some spirits fault. It is sometimes hard to find the cause of the symptoms, and sometimes people just "know" without being able to explain how. I would say most people do not have a spirit attached to them and most people do not have to worry about this.

Only way to tell reliably is to have someone you trust who is good at seeing spirits check. You may have your intuition point you in this direction. Maybe you have a bunch of weird experiences that are hard for you to understand any other way so you feel called to look into this....

In the case I was mentioning above, both guys had symptoms which they couldnt figure out and doctors were no help with. There was also some times they felt like they saw spirits or were being haunted. Weird random things would happen or a few people at an LSD party would see the same weird ghost for a second. Easy to explain away at first, but harder as it happens more and more....

One of the guys also dates an empathic girl who doesnt really know how to use her abilities but is very talented. She started seeing a weird intrusion in her boyfriends stomach which was why they first sought healing (she could see it and feel it but didnt know how to fix it). After a few dud ceremonies when the medicine finally opened up, this guy felt like he was being attacked by a spirit each ceremony and felt like this spirit was attached to him and the medicine was pissing it off.

So I dont think there is a way for you to tell for sure, until it makes itself known. Unless you are able to see spirits you could easily be very confused by this. I have found that most people figure it out after a couple years or even a couple months sometimes though - slowly the pieces start to fit and they start to trust their intuition more as the number of signs grow.

Also - it shows up different for most people. Not all cases like this are the same at all.

 

[AcaciaConfusedYah]

Travsha..... Suppose you happen to notice such a spirit on a loved one, or friend. How would you go about discussing this with them? Let's assume that they do not have any beliefs in this area, and would quickly discard the idea if suggested to them. However, what if they have random strange symptoms; Sees ghost in house: Check; Paranormal events (sounds in walls, things move, apparitions appear, feels things touching them) : check. And, it has been seen or experienced by others....

But let's suppose that person would not be willing to consider that the "spirits" are associated with them?

Is there anything that can be done about this? Like, behind the scenes?

Thanks.

Also, what are your thoughts on the possibility of the spirit being manifested solely by the host..... like, it is linked to something from their past, or such. Perhaps a trauma has such an impact on one's energetic field, that it has manifested as it's own being?

 

[travsha]

Travsha..... Suppose you happen to notice such a spirit on a loved one, or friend. How would you go about discussing this with them? Let's assume that they do not have any beliefs in this area, and would quickly discard the idea if suggested to them. However, what if they have random strange symptoms; Sees ghost in house: Check; Paranormal events (sounds in walls, things move, apparitions appear, feels things touching them) : check. And, it has been seen or experienced by others....

But let's suppose that person would not be willing to consider that the "spirits" are associated with them?

Well, if they believe in spirits but think this isnt attached to them.... I would think of a gentle way to suggest it might be connected to them and point out why. Or I may just invite them to a ceremony and there is a good chance they will then know what is going on because they could see it in ceremony.

If they didnt believe in spirits at all, but were having symptoms and problems and I thought it was a spirit... I may invite them to a ceremony but explain it more in a psychological/emotional healing way. I dont really care if other people believe in spirits, and belief doesnt seem to effect the quality of the work. Their beliefs might change after a couple ceremonies though....

Is there anything that can be done about this behind the scenes?

Depends on how serious it is.... If it is pretty mild, then maybe. If it is a real possession, probably not. It might help if I describe a exorcism I saw in Peru a few months ago.

I was hosting ceremony at my teachers house in Peru for 7 people with San Pedro. My teacher wasnt home but her sons were there and they are both healers, and there were also two Q'ero shamans hanging out with us that day (they werent part of the 7 I counted). We were all working together, but I was kinda leading things.

Ceremony is going great. About 3-4 hours in one of the Q'ero shamans goes around with his condor feathers to give people cleansings. I see him give extra attention to one lady so I go check to see how it was for her. She tells me "I saw it - it has eyes and teeth and I want it gone!" We talked and I felt like she needed a little more time before it was ready to come out so I told her I would be back in a little bit to check on her again.

About 15 minutes later I heard blood curdling screams. It was time. She was screaming and flailing around and obviously in pain... She later said it was the greatest pain in her life. The 2 Q'ero shamans were standing a ways off and I could tell they were kinda working on her from a distance. I knew she needed support so I went and hugged her as hard as I could and kept praying for her protection and healing. After 5 or so minutes her screams turned into laughter and she told me it was gone. She looked physically different by this point and even acted different - more open, relaxed and happy. (this is the short version of the story and doesnt do the drama and intensity justice)

So you see.... Exorcisms can be pretty intense and painful and scary sometimes.... So hard to do without someone knowing unless it is really mild (I would call the more mild version an energy intrusion rather then a spirit possession).

Also, what are your thoughts on the possibility of the spirit being manifested solely by the host..... like, it is linked to something from their past, or such. Perhaps a trauma has such an impact on one's energetic field, that it has manifested as it's own being?

People can create their own inner demons. This is not as serious or hard to deal with as an actual spirit possessing them. There are a few ways to deal with this.... You can call out the "inner demon" and give it a form and then perform on exorcism on the form you created. You can also heal the "demon" and reunite it with the person in a balanced way with love (this is similar to soul retrieval where the person learns to love the repressed parts of themselves and welcome them back into the whole of their being). I usually prefer the healing with love way.... Less dangerous and more lovey :thumb_up:

 

[AcaciaConfusedYah]

Hey, Thanks!

You've given some great food for thought and consideration.

 

[Hiyo Quicksilver]

Depending on your preferred model of consciousness, Mescaline and LSD are generally active in very different parts of the psyche... It's really no wonder how or why these experiences are so markedly different, all else being equal.