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2 questions of spiritual experience and DMT

Migrated topic.
As far as I know, whether it is actually a neurotransmitter or simply can function as one is not completely established. It IS endogenous though... and not just to humans, but to basically every living thing we know of.
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is there a place i can read more about this?

there are a lot of metabolites that the body has no use for and so it excretes them, how can we tell the difference between these and things the body uses?
 
AlbertKLloyd said:
As far as I know, whether it is actually a neurotransmitter or simply can function as one is not completely established. It IS endogenous though... and not just to humans, but to basically every living thing we know of.
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is there a place i can read more about this?

there are a lot of metabolites that the body has no use for and so it excretes them, how can we tell the difference between these and things the body uses?
Click to expand...

Here is a paper from 2004 that theorizes trace amine pathways and anxiolytic activity for endogenous DMT. https://www.dmt-nexus.me/Files/Books/DMT/Endogenous Anxiolytic DMT.pdf

There is sparse information on the subject of DMT's actual use inside the human body. In the same folder where the above book is stored, there are a number of other books you can check out, but (spoiler alert) none of them will answer your question.

[EDIT: You can't access the folder directly, but rather with this link - The DMT Nexus - Files ]

I've personally come across a lot of speculation and a bit of study, but all we really know is that we have found DMT basically everywhere we look in terms of living organisms. Odd metabolites that go unused or are excreted by the body are not found universally due to the fact that living organisms have very different metabolic processes. Also, DMT is not found generally in urine, sweat or feces. Of course, no one is studying this... and furthermore, the action of MAO on endogenous DMT would render it into a different form anyway.

Not being a chemist, bio-chemist, or expert on DMT metabolism, that is about all I can tell you. If you figure something out or find any better or more recent info on the subject, please post it for us.
 
AlbertKLloyd said:
embracethevoid said:
There is an underlying reality of self-knowledge that can be reached many ways, DMT being one.
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What do you mean underlying reality?
And self-knowledge, what kind of knowledge is this?
I was not even sure self existed outside of language.
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There is far more to reality/existence as a whole than humans can comprehend dude. The observable universe, perhaps a minute aspect of existence as a whole, has existed for billions of years, while humans have existed for at most a million. The self exists beyond and totally encompassing humanity, language and perception, I am not talking about the human psyche when I say "self", how arrogant and anthropomorphising that would be. Although it may feel like it, existence doesn't exist just for humans to wander around and meaninglessly play. Existence is very serious business, if anything.

Of course, to say "underlying" is not quite accurate for reality is simply in our face at all times and places. However the illusions we have about it are what veil it from us and hence, it's "underlying". What I mean by the "underlying" knowledge then is knowledge of the nameless flow of existence. You don't need language for that, every living creature grasps it to an extent. We use language to break it down into manageable bits and because of that humanity has taken over the world. But it also veils it from us, something that we could once clearly see as a species. The flow IS language, it's communication, learning, knowledge. You know the flow inside out but to encompass it with words is impossible for it is the sculptor of words.

When you differentiate with words between one object and another, you lose clarity. You forget the incredible complexity of the things you are referring to and you objectify and box them up into your limited knowledge & perception, allowing ignorance to be born. And suddenly the world becomes anthropomorphic. You have to remember that Earth itself is like a miniscule sand grain in a gigantic beach, we are disposable. The self is not disposable, the self is what does the disposing & reusing.
 
embracethevoid, i believe your use of the word self is vacuous
the only thing i agree with is your first sentence in your last post.
There is far more to reality/existence as a whole than humans can comprehend
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i think that undermines your opinion about self/universe rather succinctly, you claim to know the incomprehensible!



hyperspacefool, that paper is interesting, thanks!
 
Non-communicable does not mean incomprehensible. Don't put words in my mouth. I don't claim to know anything other than what I know and that is enough. From observation one can gleam enough.
 
That is true.

But there is far more to observation.

The observer perfectly comprehends existence and the meaning of meaning.

However these things are beyond any system of explanation because reality contains all systems of explanation.
 
embracethevoid said:
That is true.

But there is far more to observation.

The observer perfectly comprehends existence and the meaning of meaning.

However these things are beyond any system of explanation because reality contains all systems of explanation.
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observation is not comprehension

vanity is the idea that we can understand existence and meaning
 
We're going to have to agree to disagree here I'm afraid. Who can really say what can and cannot be said about reality, or the meaning of meaning?

This is not just me talking, reality is talking every bit as "I" am. Don't forget. The observation I am thinking of is comprehension. It requires no conscious thought but to say it is free of thought or consciousness is not correct either. The divine mystery...

I comprehend my own existence just fine these days. I can't say the same thing for "others" but to me there are no "others" ;)
 
Loyd.
Your posts always fire me up, cause you are so quick to just reduce and deny things.
Perhaps this is the reason you havent had the kind of spiritual experience these guys are talking about with dmt, because for you no matter what, you know everything and can reduce everything into simple knowable terms, so anything that doesnt fit within this narrow definition of reality is quickly dismissed and chalked up to this and that.

Just my thoughts, peace and love
 
To be honest I get the impression he already knows, at the least, roughly what's up.

So DMT has nothing to give to him. As magical and profound as all these DMT experiences seem, they only truly point you in the direction of the absolutely mundane yet totally amazing ever present reality in the end.

Enlightenment is somewhere between total magic and total rationality.

However the quickness to reduce and deny things is an aspect of his character which I know very little about but on face value I agree, he should work on that. Overclassifying and abstracting reality puts you into a fish bowl. It's a lot harder to get out of that fishbowl when you have solid conviction that you're correct in every way shape and form.
 
Harmalosa said:
you know everything and can reduce everything into simple knowable terms, so anything that doesnt fit within this narrow definition of reality is quickly dismissed and chalked up to this and that.
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Hence, the skeptic is born. (not pointing fingers, only referring to this type of thinking)

Perhaps fear of the unknown is the culprit?
 
embracethevoid said:
There is far more to reality/existence as a whole than humans can comprehend dude. The observable universe, perhaps a minute aspect of existence as a whole, has existed for billions of years, while humans have existed for at most a million. The self exists beyond and totally encompassing humanity, language and perception, I am not talking about the human psyche when I say "self", how arrogant and anthropomorphising that would be. Although it may feel like it, existence doesn't exist just for humans to wander around and meaninglessly play. Existence is very serious business, if anything.

Of course, to say "underlying" is not quite accurate for reality is simply in our face at all times and places. However the illusions we have about it are what veil it from us and hence, it's "underlying". What I mean by the "underlying" knowledge then is knowledge of the nameless flow of existence. You don't need language for that, every living creature grasps it to an extent. We use language to break it down into manageable bits and because of that humanity has taken over the world. But it also veils it from us, something that we could once clearly see as a species. The flow IS language, it's communication, learning, knowledge. You know the flow inside out but to encompass it with words is impossible for it is the sculptor of words.

When you differentiate with words between one object and another, you lose clarity. You forget the incredible complexity of the things you are referring to and you objectify and box them up into your limited knowledge & perception, allowing ignorance to be born. And suddenly the world becomes anthropomorphic. You have to remember that Earth itself is like a miniscule sand grain in a gigantic beach, we are disposable. The self is not disposable, the self is what does the disposing & reusing.
Click to expand...

Excellent post. :d Very insightful, thank you. I also think we lose clarity when we become too attached to our personal point of view.
 
Harmalosa said:
Loyd.
Your posts always fire me up, cause you are so quick to just reduce and deny things.
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they are just words on a screen
view them as you will

in suggesting that i have already made up my mind
who is denying who?

As for clarity and perspective, can a perspective ever be clear?
Can an intention?
 
AlbertKLloyd said:
As for clarity and perspective, can a perspective ever be clear?
Can an intention?
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Perspective is *by definition* relative, subjective etc. etc. but as far as that goes, there are moments of astounding clarity that are possible. If we could only hold on to those transcendent, blessed nanoseconds where things seem to make abundant sense...

As for intention, this can be clear.

A warrior (wizard, shaman, druid, magi, (insert your favorite wiseman archetype here)).......

can hone his intent until it is as fine and sharp as the blade/laser/scalpel/pen {whatever} which he weilds as its surrogate.

The question is one of will. Willpower drives intention.
 
..interesting questions AlbertKLloyd, i admit i read this thread a few times without forming any coherent answer, and i'm tempted to respond to the questions with questions (e.g. what does spiritual mean, and does that mean the same thing to everyone?)

..but i'll have a go..
beyond a certain dose, DMT will usually elicit 'out of body' , 'contact with discarnate entity', or 'singularity of consciousness' experiences..i take 'spirit' to imply the non-material or the 'universal', non-rational concepts based on perception,..someone who doesn't believe they have 'spiritual experiences' may experience all of the above and still not describe it in spiritual terms, instead looking for a rational scientific basis..but others would still call that experience 'spiritual'..

and if you usually have spiritual experiences, you may not have one on DMT because the dose is low, or your mind is busy/cluttered, you are not mentally prepared, or you temporarily don't realize that everything you're seeing has a spiritual origin..

..as for DMT as a neuro-transmitter, the evidence seems fairly good that it is one, or is a 'hormone', or plays a function in CNS activity
(seconding Hyperspace Fool) ..smoked, it achieves it's effects once it has entered the blood stream..this indicates it gets past the blood-brain-barrier..so if it is in the blood/cerebrospinal fluid/urine it is probably in the brain, doing something..the fact that there are 12 or more kinds of '5HT 'receptor suggests that the system is looking to upload a wider range of tryptamines than serotonin..
.
 
..interesting questions AlbertKLloyd, i admit i read this thread a few times without forming any coherent answer, and i'm tempted to respond to the questions with questions (e.g. what does spiritual mean, and does that mean the same thing to everyone?)
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i think questions are the best answers we will ever have

your points are good, spiritual is often connoted or defined as meaning extra-physical and in a sense DMT is associated with the perception of extra-physical experience.
 
I agree with nen888.

Many of the experiences that my non-spiritual comrades report fall squarely into the category I label as spiritual.

Like many of our discussions here, it breaks down to semantics and accepted definitions for the most part.
 
I use DMT and similiar substances to illicit a spiritual response since I am spiritual. I am spiritual, therefore I perform a spriritual psychedelic ritual.

Its hard to perform that kind of ritual without psychedelics.......😉
 
Because I have no experience with "spiritual" experience outside of the realm of psychedelic experinence I don't have much insight in respect to answering the OP's second question.

As for why would someone have a spiritual experience on DMT(and I assume you include other psychedelics) having never had one in the past, I can offer my subjective thoughts and experience in respect to that problem. The aesthetic beauty, tacticle sensations, mind blowing awe inspiring insights, entity contact, ecstasy and bliss associated with psychedelic states are undoubtedly areas of profound experience. They can be so profound, confounding, and mind bending to the point where we as humans, are restricted by language to describe these experiences, resulting in many of us describing the experience as spiritual. Though I do acknowledge the spiritual aspect of experience during psychedelic trials, I also recognize experience is recorded and processed with the help of an indivudal's perception.

I don't like to look at my psychedelic experiences as spiritual or non spiritual, I really tend to look at all experience as just that, experience.
 
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