^^ Very nice, and I would agree with you. The control has been slow and methodical, working itself over periods of decades if not centuries.
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2009 The Year of the Slave
- Thread starter Saidin
- Start date
amor_fati: you summed it up nicely.
I feel this duality in myself (escape into comfort and comatose vs. the ambition for a meaningful life). The only reason I'm still on the path is that something always brings me back, the desire for enlightenment seems to be unstoppable. That's my only hope, actually, that this process cannot be stopped, that it's inevitable.
I think that there is a bottom of the pit that the world at whole or individuals in particular can hit, and this experience may turn the tide into the other direction. We may be witnesses to and participants of this apocalypse right now.
I feel this duality in myself (escape into comfort and comatose vs. the ambition for a meaningful life). The only reason I'm still on the path is that something always brings me back, the desire for enlightenment seems to be unstoppable. That's my only hope, actually, that this process cannot be stopped, that it's inevitable.
I think that there is a bottom of the pit that the world at whole or individuals in particular can hit, and this experience may turn the tide into the other direction. We may be witnesses to and participants of this apocalypse right now.
In many ways the western world is pretty much a paradise. On every continent you have wars. But we have the great fortune to live in a world where war is something very distant and remote.
I may not like everybody here, but i am not at war with anybody.
If we don't like someone we don't start murdering entire families.
We can resolve our differences.
911-2001 has made our world a lot less free. But we are still living in peace, wealth and freedom where the rest of the world can only dream of.
In india, a politician of the BJP got into big trouble because he said that pakistan isn't the fault of everything and better relationships with pakistan would be a good idea.
Saying something as simple as 'i want to live in peace' (wich is something everybody wants except 0.001% of the population) is something that can get you into big trouble in most parts of the world.
The rest of the world admires us and hates us; they admire us because of our democracy, of how well we manage to get along in spite of our differences.
They hate us because they know we can offer our hand to the rest of the world, we can say 'i want peace with the muslim-world, the hindu-world, russia, china, africa' without ending up beheaded somewhere on the street. They hate us because we could have said that there where no WMD's in iraq.
Western world is far from perfect, but if you don't see all the great things that we have achieved then it's going to be harder to liberate yourself even further.
The very idea that each life is valuable is something that has yet to be mentioned in the rest of the world; africa still knows slavery and slave-trade, there's child labour including prostitution everywhere and the chinese government simply sees it's citizens as organic robots of who's lives the soul purpose is to generate more money to build higher skyscrapers.
I know that some people in the west also look at human lives as simply economic units but saying that each live is valuable is not considered an act of subversion, wich it is in china, india and africa where more than half the earths population lives.
I may not like everybody here, but i am not at war with anybody.
If we don't like someone we don't start murdering entire families.
We can resolve our differences.
911-2001 has made our world a lot less free. But we are still living in peace, wealth and freedom where the rest of the world can only dream of.
In india, a politician of the BJP got into big trouble because he said that pakistan isn't the fault of everything and better relationships with pakistan would be a good idea.
Saying something as simple as 'i want to live in peace' (wich is something everybody wants except 0.001% of the population) is something that can get you into big trouble in most parts of the world.
The rest of the world admires us and hates us; they admire us because of our democracy, of how well we manage to get along in spite of our differences.
They hate us because they know we can offer our hand to the rest of the world, we can say 'i want peace with the muslim-world, the hindu-world, russia, china, africa' without ending up beheaded somewhere on the street. They hate us because we could have said that there where no WMD's in iraq.
Western world is far from perfect, but if you don't see all the great things that we have achieved then it's going to be harder to liberate yourself even further.
The very idea that each life is valuable is something that has yet to be mentioned in the rest of the world; africa still knows slavery and slave-trade, there's child labour including prostitution everywhere and the chinese government simply sees it's citizens as organic robots of who's lives the soul purpose is to generate more money to build higher skyscrapers.
I know that some people in the west also look at human lives as simply economic units but saying that each live is valuable is not considered an act of subversion, wich it is in china, india and africa where more than half the earths population lives.
^yes I agree with you in some resprects..people here generally do want to get along with the other nations around the planet..people want peace and beleive in it..but I think many people dont see how far reaching certain aspects of our lifestyle reach, effecting others in negative ways..The real problem is people dont aknowlegde that the world economy is now like a web, and that they're money and how it is spent can effect peoples lives across the globe..money talks..
Take Wal-mart for instance..they aren't one of the biggest companies becasue people dont shop there..they got that way becasue TONS of people shop there..and most of they're stuff comes from countries where workers are grossly underpaid (not to mention child labour) and wal-mart supports that by buying from them..and then selling it to everyone here for 100% markup..which still seems cheap. It's not just wal-mart it is everywhere wal-mart is just the easiest target:wink:
So many people here need to wake up and aknowledge how they're actions effect the rest of the world..we can't rely on our governemt to put a stop to it, obviousily. Our money must become our vote, and we should support freedom, not salvery..which is what we do when we buy at wal-mart and the other plethora of simialar companies etc..
I know this happens alomost everywhere these days, it's hard to get around it..some families probabily rely on wal-mart to the point where they couldnt cloth and feed they're families without it...but do we really need all the shit we buy?? Do we really need X box and big screen TV's and brand new cars and $100 nikes??
There are wal-marts everywhere here in canada, all over the place. People are addicted to it. My sister goes there every day almost to buy movies and other cheap crap she probabily doesn't need...and at the same time she is studying for a law degree becasue she says she wants to help people, and bring justice to society...I tell her ifshe wants to help people and see justice..dont go to wal-mart...but all that does is make people angry and they dont want to hear it..so there is a big problem there. I see it every day..people love they're comfort..
In many ways I see our level of comfort comming from the expense or others..and it makesme sad..I know other governements need to put a stop to this in they're own countries as well, like China..but that is no excuse for companies here to buy from those places..if they cannot pull it together here and support fair-trade..than we should support freedom and a fair lifestyle for all and not support those companies.
Take Wal-mart for instance..they aren't one of the biggest companies becasue people dont shop there..they got that way becasue TONS of people shop there..and most of they're stuff comes from countries where workers are grossly underpaid (not to mention child labour) and wal-mart supports that by buying from them..and then selling it to everyone here for 100% markup..which still seems cheap. It's not just wal-mart it is everywhere wal-mart is just the easiest target:wink:
So many people here need to wake up and aknowledge how they're actions effect the rest of the world..we can't rely on our governemt to put a stop to it, obviousily. Our money must become our vote, and we should support freedom, not salvery..which is what we do when we buy at wal-mart and the other plethora of simialar companies etc..
I know this happens alomost everywhere these days, it's hard to get around it..some families probabily rely on wal-mart to the point where they couldnt cloth and feed they're families without it...but do we really need all the shit we buy?? Do we really need X box and big screen TV's and brand new cars and $100 nikes??
There are wal-marts everywhere here in canada, all over the place. People are addicted to it. My sister goes there every day almost to buy movies and other cheap crap she probabily doesn't need...and at the same time she is studying for a law degree becasue she says she wants to help people, and bring justice to society...I tell her ifshe wants to help people and see justice..dont go to wal-mart...but all that does is make people angry and they dont want to hear it..so there is a big problem there. I see it every day..people love they're comfort..
In many ways I see our level of comfort comming from the expense or others..and it makesme sad..I know other governements need to put a stop to this in they're own countries as well, like China..but that is no excuse for companies here to buy from those places..if they cannot pull it together here and support fair-trade..than we should support freedom and a fair lifestyle for all and not support those companies.
Fractal Enchantment
You touched on a topic that i am greatly passionate about. I think that to many people don't question where their products are coming from, whats in them and how much suffering was induced to make them and push them into the market. The majority of products that are in the market have been made in child or slave labour camps eg: a lot of products that are made in China are sadly made that way (I try my best to not buy any products that are made in China because of this.)
There is also an alarming percentage of products that are on the market that test on animals (This practice is an outdated barbaric practice.) I actually battle to find eg: shampoo or conditioner that is not tested on animals, the only shampoo and conditioners that don't test on animals in my country are local and organic products so I always try and purchase those. There are so many layers to this issue, the only way to stop these companies from causing so much suffering is to educate yourself about all the products that you buy and to stop buying the products from the companies with questionable practices. Please don't be a blind consumer.......
Much Peace and Happiness
You touched on a topic that i am greatly passionate about. I think that to many people don't question where their products are coming from, whats in them and how much suffering was induced to make them and push them into the market. The majority of products that are in the market have been made in child or slave labour camps eg: a lot of products that are made in China are sadly made that way (I try my best to not buy any products that are made in China because of this.)
There is also an alarming percentage of products that are on the market that test on animals (This practice is an outdated barbaric practice.) I actually battle to find eg: shampoo or conditioner that is not tested on animals, the only shampoo and conditioners that don't test on animals in my country are local and organic products so I always try and purchase those. There are so many layers to this issue, the only way to stop these companies from causing so much suffering is to educate yourself about all the products that you buy and to stop buying the products from the companies with questionable practices. Please don't be a blind consumer.......
Much Peace and Happiness
Yes. This is a very, very important issue. Maybe the single most important issue in this world at this moment.
The WTO forbids country's like the USA and canada to demand imported products are made under proper working conditions. The WTO's predecessor 'GATT' already declared such demands as import tariffs that would restrict free-trade.
That is a formidable mistake of wich i suspect big companies to have done some lobbying to get it well established.
Yet, if every company would have to aply to these same rules, there would be no disadvantage for them.
Politicians have simply shoved responsabillity for the earth to the consumer, wich is us. While the whole notion of having a democracy in the first place is that they take responsibility's we are not up to, for wich we elect them.
The WTO forbids country's like the USA and canada to demand imported products are made under proper working conditions. The WTO's predecessor 'GATT' already declared such demands as import tariffs that would restrict free-trade.
That is a formidable mistake of wich i suspect big companies to have done some lobbying to get it well established.
Yet, if every company would have to aply to these same rules, there would be no disadvantage for them.
Politicians have simply shoved responsabillity for the earth to the consumer, wich is us. While the whole notion of having a democracy in the first place is that they take responsibility's we are not up to, for wich we elect them.
polytrip said:
There is a deeper meaning behind these rules. And your previous post is a gross oversimplification as to why so many people around the world hate us.
Read: Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins if you truly want to know how the west (through the WTO and World Bank) has manipulated the rest of the world to enslave them and take their resources. That is why we are hated, and as for liking us...well if envy is a form of liking, I guess that counts.
balaganist
Rising Star
Yeh - the layers run deep on this issue... people are waking up and realising slowly, but it is hard because we have almost built our reality around products and consumerism. Just as someone eating a Big Mac or KFC is not thinking about the condition and life of the animal they are eating, so people (including myself) are not really thinking too deeply about all the manufactured products they buy...
mobile phones, clothes, computers, etc .. how was it manufactured, under what conditions, how much waste was produced and energy consumed... not many people want to know - especially in countries that have been recently westernised, where money is more scarce and cheap goods are the only ones you can afford....
the thing is you need to spend more money for things to be fair-traded, organic and with respect for environment and human and animal welfare. So for many people they may not see it as an option because they feel they need to feed and clothe and entertain their family. But how much do we really need?
The problem is we have also kind of put ourselves in a corner by becoming dependant on consumer culture. E.g. here in England it is not really possible to go and live a simple life with no electricity, no consumer products; well it is but the knowledge needed to live like that is rare and faint. Once upon a time we had this knowledge - using natural medicine, foraging or growing our own food, treating ills with local plant medicine.
It is knowledge of nature, an understanding of our relationship and place within nature. We are blessed that we still have peoples on the planet that live like that. Although the knowledge is dying people are realising how important it is, and rediscovering this knowledge.
That we in the westernised countries need to re-connect with our home, the earth, and with the plants, the keepers of our planet.
We became lost in the illusion of seperation...
mobile phones, clothes, computers, etc .. how was it manufactured, under what conditions, how much waste was produced and energy consumed... not many people want to know - especially in countries that have been recently westernised, where money is more scarce and cheap goods are the only ones you can afford....
the thing is you need to spend more money for things to be fair-traded, organic and with respect for environment and human and animal welfare. So for many people they may not see it as an option because they feel they need to feed and clothe and entertain their family. But how much do we really need?
The problem is we have also kind of put ourselves in a corner by becoming dependant on consumer culture. E.g. here in England it is not really possible to go and live a simple life with no electricity, no consumer products; well it is but the knowledge needed to live like that is rare and faint. Once upon a time we had this knowledge - using natural medicine, foraging or growing our own food, treating ills with local plant medicine.
It is knowledge of nature, an understanding of our relationship and place within nature. We are blessed that we still have peoples on the planet that live like that. Although the knowledge is dying people are realising how important it is, and rediscovering this knowledge.
That we in the westernised countries need to re-connect with our home, the earth, and with the plants, the keepers of our planet.
We became lost in the illusion of seperation...
I agree with many of what saidin says.
The only reason why i take a different tone is because i think that we could ask ourselves 'why do we want all these things in the first place?'
Sometimes, often i would say, the intentions of people are realy good. We want our childeren to have better lives than we had. So we think we should give them expensive stuff.
If we would only ask that question 'why' a little more often.
The only reason why i take a different tone is because i think that we could ask ourselves 'why do we want all these things in the first place?'
Sometimes, often i would say, the intentions of people are realy good. We want our childeren to have better lives than we had. So we think we should give them expensive stuff.
If we would only ask that question 'why' a little more often.
polytrip said:
I agree, a very good point. We have often been conditioned to believe we need things which we truly do not. The best question we can ask is why.