2012 is everywhere now and it's only 2010. If enough people believe that something's going to happen than something is going to happen.
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2012 demystified by Penn & Teller
- Thread starter Pokey
- Start date
kyrolima
Rising Star
There are people out there, who support these claims of spiritual revolution with their deepest heart and soul.
This guy, german producer of 2012 (R)evolution put everything he got into that project.
Not in order to make money, but to show the public that 2012 is a very important year in the history of mankind.
I hope some of you get to see it.
This guy, german producer of 2012 (R)evolution put everything he got into that project.
Not in order to make money, but to show the public that 2012 is a very important year in the history of mankind.
I hope some of you get to see it.
There are also people out there who are into having sex with young boys with their deepest heart and soul. See NAMBLA.Mr_DMT said:
Should we take everyone seriously because they wholly and honestly believe into something?
I do not think so.
Mr_DMT said:
So, extrapolating from Infundibulum's point, are you saying you regard the acceptance of male homosexual paedophilia to be "something important" on par with 2012? I'm just trying to make sure I understand you correctly.
Big Inhale
The Enlightend One
HaHa this thread just got funny!Mr_DMT said:Entropymancer said:
nooooo, i'm not in favor of male homosexual paedophilia
Just read my post without the homosexual relation.
Um, I think you're missing something here. Let me break it down:
1.) You assert that if someone sincerely and deeply believes in something to the point that they sacrifice their livelihood, that makes it something important.
2.) NAMBLA members sincerely believe that male homosexual paedophilia is good and should be accepted by society, and are willing to stake their livelihood on this belief.
3.) You disagree and do not support homosexual paedophilia as an important cause.
You now have two options: either change your mind and accept the value that paedophiles have to society, or reject your (obviously flawed) premise.
Sincere belief and a willingness to stake ones livelihood cannot be an indicator of importance only for causes that you happen to agree with.
1.) You assert that if someone sincerely and deeply believes in something to the point that they sacrifice their livelihood, that makes it something important.
2.) NAMBLA members sincerely believe that male homosexual paedophilia is good and should be accepted by society, and are willing to stake their livelihood on this belief.
3.) You disagree and do not support homosexual paedophilia as an important cause.
You now have two options: either change your mind and accept the value that paedophiles have to society, or reject your (obviously flawed) premise.
Sincere belief and a willingness to stake ones livelihood cannot be an indicator of importance only for causes that you happen to agree with.
TheNtt
Rising Star
lol. This argument is so silly. I'm honestly a bit disappointed that nobody on this forum has given a well educated opinion on this matter. In the current state of reality, 2012 is neither fact or fiction- it can't be proven or disproved. If you think it can or can't present your case using reason. It's quite laughable to me when people come on here and say "oh it's definitely this way" or "it's definitely that way" and then they don't even provide any educated reasoning behind it. If you're going to do this, STOP. because it is stupid and is only contributing more to the mass mis-information regarding 2012. If you really care do some research and present an EDUCATED OPINION on the matter and refrain from spreading more mis info.
kyrolima
Rising Star
I won't go crazy on the homosexual topic.
This is just not the topic here.
Pedophilia is for sure not a healthy form of sexuality! And most likely a desease!
I wouln't say 2012 nor spirituality falls under this category.
Therefore I don't have to relate to your pedo-example!
And just, that we don't miss each other: How in the WORLD you bring up the topic homosexual pedophilia?
Has it something to do with sigmund freud ? :evil: :d
This is just not the topic here.
Pedophilia is for sure not a healthy form of sexuality! And most likely a desease!
I wouln't say 2012 nor spirituality falls under this category.
Therefore I don't have to relate to your pedo-example!
And just, that we don't miss each other: How in the WORLD you bring up the topic homosexual pedophilia?
Has it something to do with sigmund freud ? :evil: :d
Mr_DMT said:
Really??! You're so egotistical that you belief your absolute assertions (ie that belief and willingness to sacfrifice livelihood imparts value/importance) only applies to causes which you happen to not disagree with? Come on, you're smarter than that.
I didn't bring it up, infund did. And he did so because it is the perfect foil to expose the flaw in your argument.
kyrolima
Rising Star
I think it's a huge difference between those two topics:
homosexual pedos:
egoistical, and animal-like, probably sick behavior! The goal to "legalize" this form of sexuality does only benefit those who are pedo-homos.
2012:
The makers of this film act altruistic. They don't want to make money with this film.
The idea behind is, to spread knowledge and ideas! The goal is to spread information and make people think! Everybody can and should benefit from it!
The intentions are completly antithetic!
homosexual pedos:
egoistical, and animal-like, probably sick behavior! The goal to "legalize" this form of sexuality does only benefit those who are pedo-homos.
2012:
The makers of this film act altruistic. They don't want to make money with this film.
The idea behind is, to spread knowledge and ideas! The goal is to spread information and make people think! Everybody can and should benefit from it!
The intentions are completly antithetic!
So now its a matter of intentions? Well why didn't you say so in the first place? 
Surely I don't need to point out that tremendous harm can come from the best intentions. Genocide is typically undertaken out of altruistic motives. Far from being selfish, the perpetrators are doing what they feel will be of the greatest benefit in helping the human race to improve itself. They typically believe sincerely in what they're doing, are putting their lives on the line, and have altruistic intentions.
So I assume you support genocide?
Or are you willing to admit that the beliefs, intentions, and life circumstances of the producer are not valid arguments for the value of the documentary?
I'm not saying the documentary has no value; I'm just saying that your arguments on the subject strike me as totally irrational. If you want to assert that its valuable, that's fine, you're communicating an opinion. But if you want to use supporting evidence to argue that it's valuable, I'd recommend not using evidence that supports genocide and paedophilia just as much as it supports your assertion
Surely I don't need to point out that tremendous harm can come from the best intentions. Genocide is typically undertaken out of altruistic motives. Far from being selfish, the perpetrators are doing what they feel will be of the greatest benefit in helping the human race to improve itself. They typically believe sincerely in what they're doing, are putting their lives on the line, and have altruistic intentions.
So I assume you support genocide?
Or are you willing to admit that the beliefs, intentions, and life circumstances of the producer are not valid arguments for the value of the documentary?
I'm not saying the documentary has no value; I'm just saying that your arguments on the subject strike me as totally irrational. If you want to assert that its valuable, that's fine, you're communicating an opinion. But if you want to use supporting evidence to argue that it's valuable, I'd recommend not using evidence that supports genocide and paedophilia just as much as it supports your assertion
TheNtt
Rising Star
Entropymancer said:
I'd say that last sentence is somewhat of a stretch... I think you're kinda twisting his argument a tad. Regardless, the lack of rational evidence is a perfectly fine reason to deem the opinion incorrect- however how is that any more incorrect than a post saying "2012 is definitely bullshit" with no further explanation? Pretty much every single opinion in this thread regarding 2012 is lacking rational evidence. Which leads me to the point I've been making all along- if you don't have an educated opinion- then don't talk about it!!!
these 2012 threads always make me angry- because people constantly argue back in forth with the most unsound arguments I've ever seen, and then they wonder why there is so much misinformation surrounding 2012.
EDIT: entro, maybe you werent slightly twisting the argument. I'm just finding it hard to accurately pinpoint how I feel.
How am I twisting his words? That certainly wasn't my intention. Did he not assert that sincere belief, altruistic intent, and a willingness to risk ones livelihood impart value to their ideas/creations? I was merely taking those assertions to their logical conclusions.
Also, I'm curious what you expect a "rational discourse" on 2012 to look like? There's simply no evidence that anything other than life as we know it will occur in 2012. It's debatable whether the mayans predicated anything (armageddon or otherwise) would happen, but even if they did, there's no reason to believe that it has any meaningful predictive value. On the Sumerian side of things, Sitchin's rambling have no basis at all in the Sumerian records. There is simply no rational evidence that anything outside the normal range of life as we know it will occur.
Of course we can't prove that nothing supernatural or globally-spiritual will occur. All we can do is point to the entire period of recorded history of life going on as it ever has.
I guess my point is that unless you're privvy to some information that's hidden from the rest of us, there's no more reason to believe in 2012 than to believe in Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot (or the flying spaghetti monster for a more contemporary example)
Also, I'm curious what you expect a "rational discourse" on 2012 to look like? There's simply no evidence that anything other than life as we know it will occur in 2012. It's debatable whether the mayans predicated anything (armageddon or otherwise) would happen, but even if they did, there's no reason to believe that it has any meaningful predictive value. On the Sumerian side of things, Sitchin's rambling have no basis at all in the Sumerian records. There is simply no rational evidence that anything outside the normal range of life as we know it will occur.
Of course we can't prove that nothing supernatural or globally-spiritual will occur. All we can do is point to the entire period of recorded history of life going on as it ever has.
I guess my point is that unless you're privvy to some information that's hidden from the rest of us, there's no more reason to believe in 2012 than to believe in Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot (or the flying spaghetti monster for a more contemporary example)
TheNtt
Rising Star
No entro, you're right. you absolutely are.
I have spent a great deal of time trying to understand Mayan and other mesoamerican cultures. Not because of 2012, though.
My opinion is that the Mayan's were capable of predicting astronomical events thousands of years into the future- however the events themselves probably don't hold much significance other than the passing of time. It is still a miraculous feat for them to develop such incredible skymapping technology, given how "primitive" our society thinks their culture is. To me what's more fascinating is the fact that these cultures often indulged in tryptamine based psychedelics to acquire knowledge and technology. When I indulge in some 4-HO-DMT, especially with some caapi, it becomes very obvious that these cultures were greatly influenced by these substances. I think that something very mystical and special surrounds these substances, and mesoamerican culture seems to have been the most intune to this mysticism, if you will.
To go a little deeper, I feel our planet is in danger. Humans are destroying the planet. In my mind the only way to overcome this is through recognizing our oneness. When we begin to stand not by our country or ethnic origin, but by the people of the entire planet, we will begin to undo the damage. I think that when humanity reaches this point, they will bridge modern science with a lifestyle that allows us to live symbiotically with the planet- just as mesoamerican cultures did. We need to bridge the two into one way of living. With that said, thinking back to the possibility that perhaps these mesomerican cultures (that were a lot fucking smarter than most people give them credit for), could predict astronimcal events thousands of years into the future suddenly becomes an intriguing possibility in regards to humans finally waking up to their true potential. Especially when you start to take into consideration the current state of the planet. It seems to be that we're coming closer and closer to the point of realization that we need to change the way we live in order to ensure the survival of our species. I don't personally think 2012 holds relevance to this, but it certainly doesn't seem too far fetched to me, because whatever is happening here and now is completely and utterly fucking insane to begin with.
P.S. if you don't think the Mayan's were capable of predicting astronimical events that far into the future, read a book on Mayan skymapping. It's very likely that that is exactly what the Long Count calendar is for. I guess it's also important to note that the alignment they predict at the end of the 13th baktun could happen in like a 20 year time frame, not necessarily on dec 21st, 2012.
I have spent a great deal of time trying to understand Mayan and other mesoamerican cultures. Not because of 2012, though.
My opinion is that the Mayan's were capable of predicting astronomical events thousands of years into the future- however the events themselves probably don't hold much significance other than the passing of time. It is still a miraculous feat for them to develop such incredible skymapping technology, given how "primitive" our society thinks their culture is. To me what's more fascinating is the fact that these cultures often indulged in tryptamine based psychedelics to acquire knowledge and technology. When I indulge in some 4-HO-DMT, especially with some caapi, it becomes very obvious that these cultures were greatly influenced by these substances. I think that something very mystical and special surrounds these substances, and mesoamerican culture seems to have been the most intune to this mysticism, if you will.
To go a little deeper, I feel our planet is in danger. Humans are destroying the planet. In my mind the only way to overcome this is through recognizing our oneness. When we begin to stand not by our country or ethnic origin, but by the people of the entire planet, we will begin to undo the damage. I think that when humanity reaches this point, they will bridge modern science with a lifestyle that allows us to live symbiotically with the planet- just as mesoamerican cultures did. We need to bridge the two into one way of living. With that said, thinking back to the possibility that perhaps these mesomerican cultures (that were a lot fucking smarter than most people give them credit for), could predict astronimcal events thousands of years into the future suddenly becomes an intriguing possibility in regards to humans finally waking up to their true potential. Especially when you start to take into consideration the current state of the planet. It seems to be that we're coming closer and closer to the point of realization that we need to change the way we live in order to ensure the survival of our species. I don't personally think 2012 holds relevance to this, but it certainly doesn't seem too far fetched to me, because whatever is happening here and now is completely and utterly fucking insane to begin with.
P.S. if you don't think the Mayan's were capable of predicting astronimical events that far into the future, read a book on Mayan skymapping. It's very likely that that is exactly what the Long Count calendar is for. I guess it's also important to note that the alignment they predict at the end of the 13th baktun could happen in like a 20 year time frame, not necessarily on dec 21st, 2012.
A key analogy comes to my mind here, in the form of the ancient scriptures. Namely the old testament and other meta-neochristian artifacts. The artifacts that have been discovered have all been analyzed and interpreted to suit the needs / beliefs of modern cultures. There is no proof that what has been extrapolated and interpreted into popular new scriptures has any accurate connection (or true relevance) to the real meaning behind the ancient documents. Everyone is looking for answers, and the need for answers inherently generates bias or doubt. The only way bias or doubt can be overcome is with REAL scientific proof, and thus we should be cautious to put too much weight on either side of the scale without scientific proof.
Modern culture, and particularly western culture have a traceable, repeated pattern of interpreting and manipulating information to suit it's needs & beliefs (whether this is done consciously or subconsciously). I have no doubt that the Mayan's were, and still are a very intelligent race of people, who have an uncanny understanding of mathematics and the cosmos based on the resources at their disposal, but that says nothing about our accuracy of interpreting their ancient work.
The other thing for me, and Penn & Teller pointed this out, is that NO previous "doomsday" or similar events have EVER come to fruition, so until that happens I'll remain skeptical.
One question I have, is if the 2012 belief exists in Asian / East Asian cultures, or is it confined to westernized thinking?
Peace,
-idt
Modern culture, and particularly western culture have a traceable, repeated pattern of interpreting and manipulating information to suit it's needs & beliefs (whether this is done consciously or subconsciously). I have no doubt that the Mayan's were, and still are a very intelligent race of people, who have an uncanny understanding of mathematics and the cosmos based on the resources at their disposal, but that says nothing about our accuracy of interpreting their ancient work.
The other thing for me, and Penn & Teller pointed this out, is that NO previous "doomsday" or similar events have EVER come to fruition, so until that happens I'll remain skeptical.
One question I have, is if the 2012 belief exists in Asian / East Asian cultures, or is it confined to westernized thinking?
Peace,
-idt
Pokey
Rising Star
idtravlr said:
It is confined mostly to internet conspiracy theorists, pitiful authors who can't make money writing real books, and scientists that don't understand science and already failed as both shitty authors, and internet conspiracy theorists.
It appears that many posters in this thread have not watched the video that was the inspiration for the thread. At the end Penn & Teller ask a Mayan High Priestess if terrible, awful, things will happen in 2012, and she says "no".
End of Story.
Pokey the Relieved
