4-AcO-DMT/4-HO-MET Fumarate water solubility

[Here&Now]

Are there any methods for determining a chemical's solubility in water based on details about its chemical structure? Or is the only way to know from experimentation in attempting to mix it with water?

I'm specifically curious about 4-AcO-DMT fumarate and 4-HO-MET fumarate.

 

[Varallo]

I think you mean the saturation point of said chemicals, based on the structure and polarity you could predict chemicals to be soluble. How much exactly would then only be determined experimentally.

Also don’t forget temperature plays a role here too.

 

[Here&Now]

That makes sense, thanks. Would you be able to give a quick description of how one could make that prediction based on structure and polarity? I remember learning about it a long time ago, but I've completely forgotten.

 

[Varallo]

I’m not sure for these compounds you mentioned, but in general you could say that for polarity alike dissolves alike. And for simple metallic salts you can do the calculations based on a chart. So in your question the fumarate would make it polar so it wil dissolve in water how much however, your guess is as good as mine.

Reading tip

Will we ever be able to accurately predict solubility? - Scientific Data

Accurate prediction of thermodynamic solubility by machine learning remains a challenge. Recent models often display good performances, but their reliability may be deceiving when used prospectively. This study investigates the origins of these discrepancies, following three directions: a...

www.nature.com

 

[Transform]

This type of question has been a major driving factor in the development of machine learning systems. Being able to predict physicochemical properties of a novel substance, or the reverse - designing new compounds with specific, desired properties - would be very valuable indeed.

The two fumarates that you mention are, as @Varallo says, likely to be reasonably to highly soluble in water.

 

[Here&Now]

That's really interesting about the potential application of ML to help with those types of predictions. Who knows where advancements like that could eventually take us. Very exciting stuff.

 

[The Traveler]

Those are indeed quite soluble in water (did this back in the days), though remember that some subtances are not that stable in a liquid, 4-HO-MET especially has a way of degrading relatively fast in a solution of water or water/ethanol.

Then again, my 5-MeO-MiPT that I keep in 96% ethanol (the other 4% water) seems to be staying stable for years at room temperature?

Also the freebase or salt-form of a substance might change their stability in a solution.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Transform]

Those are indeed quite soluble in water (did this back in the days), though remember that some subtances are not that stable in a liquid, 4-HO-MET especially has a way of degrading relatively fast in a solution of water or water/ethanol.

Then again, my 5-MeO-MiPT that I keep in 96% ethanol (the other 4% water) seems to be staying stable for years at room temperature?

Also the freebase or salt-form of a substance might change their stability in a solution.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

The bare hydroxy group of the 4-OH-T derivatives, along with its position on the ring system, makes them particularly susceptible to oxidation. Oxidation equates to loss of electrons (therefore not specifically any kind of interaction with oxygen - just there happens to be a lot of free oxygen hanging around on our planet, ever ready to soak up lonely electrons) so it follows that negatively charged or neutral species will give up their electrons more readily than a positively charged species, such as the protonated form of the tryptamine. This makes for one reason why the salts are more stable than the freebase forms of tryptamines.

This is also why alkaline solutions accelerate oxidation of 4-OH-tryptamines - the OH group is phenolic and therefore weakly acidic. As the pH increases, it becomes more likely that the OH group gives up a proton, leaving the remainder of the molecule as an anion (-ve ion), which will more readily give up its electron(s).

This is organic chemistry though, so there are exceptions and nuances largely beyond the scope of this post. One of those nuances is positioning of substituents, which brings us round to the question of relative stability of 5-substituted tryptamines over 4-substituted ones. Put simply, the way the electrons bounce around the ring system simply makes the 5-substituted versions the more stable ones. We can specifically compare bufotenine and psilocin to see this. [rummages through notes] I can add some diagrams later if anyone's interested

 

[Here&Now]

I'm so glad you guys went into the "stability in solution" aspect of 4-subbed tryptamines, because that was going to be my next question. There's plenty of examples where the solution turns black within a few days. I've never seen such a detailed explanation as the one above though. Thanks so much for that. It seems clear to me that this type should not be kept in water for an extended period of time, and perhaps not at all if its integrity is valued.

 

[Transform]

I'm so glad you guys went into the "stability in solution" aspect of 4-subbed tryptamines, because that was going to be my next question. There's plenty of examples where the solution turns black within a few days. I've never seen such a detailed explanation as the one above though. Thanks so much for that. It seems clear to me that this type should not be kept in water for an extended period of time, and perhaps not at all if its integrity is valued.

Yes - of course, the molecules are also individually exposed while in solution, whereas in crystalline form only the surface layer is in direct interaction with the environment. The latter is a relatively tiny proportion of the whole.

4-OH-substituted tryptamines are also likely to be sensitive to light, and solution will tend to increase exposure in this case as well. If you must keep 4-OH-tryptamines in solution, they ought to be sealed under argon in glass vials and protected from light. There was a science paper not so long ago on the bluing of psilocin. Similar mechanisms and structures will probably apply to other 4-OH-tryptamines.

 

[Here&Now]

Anyone have experience dissolving 4-AcO-DMT fumarate or 4-HO-MET fumarate in propylene glycol? From what I gather, it's possible to do, but I can't seem to find a reference for the saturation point.

 

[Varallo]

Anecdotal I have heard that they’re somewhat soluble but haven’t seen any data on it, maybe test it out and see if and how much is needed, would be interesting to see if they can be used in a vape. ( at your own risk)

 

[Here&Now]

Anecdotal I have heard that they’re somewhat soluble but haven’t seen any data on it, maybe test it out and see if and how much is needed, would be interesting to see if they can be used in a vape. ( at your own risk)

Sure, I'll report back after some testing if nobody is able to provide numbers. I'm thinking I'll try around 10-20mg/mL.

I'm actually planning on creating the mix to use for oral volumetric dosing. It can be so tricky to get accurate scale measurements when dealing with such tiny amounts, so I'd prefer a more precise method. I'm one of those people who hates a larger dose than expected.

 

[Varallo]

If for oral consumption you can add some water to the pg if doesn’t dissolve, I do think that it will still degrade a bit with time though regardless if you use water, ethanol or Pg,

 

[The Traveler]

Anyone have experience dissolving 4-AcO-DMT fumarate or 4-HO-MET fumarate in propylene glycol? From what I gather, it's possible to do, but I can't seem to find a reference for the saturation point.

You might find a salt form for those substances that will easily dissolve in PG?

For DMT, citric acid to create DMT-citrate was the proverbial shot in the rose: it dissolves very well in PG, and you can easily slowly add more citric acid until you reach the value of pH 7, which feels very neutral to the lungs and is barely noticed when inhaled. Its probably the best and easily vapable e-liquid DMT-salt form that we have found till this day.

Also in this journey, create a solid track record so you note down all your steps in great detail, this way you might be able to see new correlations and sharing your thoughts with us all so we can all 'Learn, Share, Expand' the motto of our platform and maybe even help to optimize the process?

Also use best practices for health and safety all along the way, its VERY important!

And when you finally are going to try it out make sure that your set and setting are very well taken care off, maybe even a fully trusted sitter. Start low, so you can get to learn the aspects of what you just created one piece at a time without overwhelming you.

So please keep finding a way to make this idea work, and always stay safe!


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Transform]

Sure, I'll report back after some testing if nobody is able to provide numbers. I'm thinking I'll try around 10-20mg/mL.

I'm actually planning on creating the mix to use for oral volumetric dosing. It can be so tricky to get accurate scale measurements when dealing with such tiny amounts, so I'd prefer a more precise method. I'm one of those people who hates a larger dose than expected.

Off-the-shelf formulations for melatonin often use glycerin and ethanol, although the dose there is a maximum of 1mg per spray pump and melatonin, being an amide, doesn't form salts like your target tryptamines. I've also seen aqueous xylitol formulations in this context. Potassium sorbate is almost always included as a preservative, along with malic or citric acid as acidity regulators.

Oral volumetric dosing has the advantage that you don't specifically need a huge solubility of the active substance.

Nice idea, I'm looking forward to some updates as your work progresses.

 

[Varallo]

You might find a salt form for those substances that will easily dissolve in PG?

For DMT, citric acid to create DMT-citrate was the proverbial shot in the rose: it dissolves very well in PG, and you can easily slowly add more citric acid until you reach the value of pH 7, which feels very neutral to the lungs and is barely noticed when inhaled. Its probably the best and easily vapable e-liquid DMT-salt form that we have found till this day.

Also in this journey, create a solid track record so you note down all your steps in great detail, this way you might be able to see new correlations and sharing your thoughts with us all so we can all 'Learn, Share, Expand' the motto of our platform and maybe even help to optimize the process?

Also use best practices for health and safety all along the way, its VERY important!

And when you finally are going to try it out make sure that your set and setting are very well taken care off, maybe even a fully trusted sitter. Start low, so you can get to learn the aspects of what you just created one piece at a time without overwhelming you.

So please keep finding a way to make this idea work, and always stay safe!


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I recently had some time to conduct a small experiment and successfully dissolved 4-HO-MET fumarate in both propylene glycol (PG) and vegetable glycerin (VG) with ease. The approximate ratio is 5 mg in 3 drops of either solvent. A small amount of heat was applied, and I suspect the ratio could be easily increased further. For now, I’ve sealed both test tubes with stoppers and will let them sit for a few days to observe if the color changes typically seen in aqueous solutions also occur in these tests.

 

[Transform]

I recently had some time to conduct a small experiment and successfully dissolved 4-HO-MET fumarate in both propylene glycol (PG) and vegetable glycerin (VG) with ease. The approximate ratio is 5 mg in 3 drops of either solvent. A small amount of heat was applied, and I suspect the ratio could be easily increased further. For now, I’ve sealed both test tubes with stoppers and will let them sit for a few days to observe if the color changes typically seen in aqueous solutions also occur in these tests.

Great stuff! One question: how might you be controlling for light exposure? This seems crucial for 4-OH tryptamines.

 

[Varallo]

I have wrapped the tubes in aluminum foil, so for now I excluded the light factor. Maybe in a couple of days I’ll put them in to the open and see if, when they haven’t turned purple or black, they will then, so far both have a tiny little bit of a yellow hue.

Will post the results in a couple days.

 

[Here&Now2]

I recently had some time to conduct a small experiment and successfully dissolved 4-HO-MET fumarate in both propylene glycol (PG) and vegetable glycerin (VG) with ease. The approximate ratio is 5 mg in 3 drops of either solvent. A small amount of heat was applied, and I suspect the ratio could be easily increased further. For now, I’ve sealed both test tubes with stoppers and will let them sit for a few days to observe if the color changes typically seen in aqueous solutions also occur in these tests.

Awesome, thanks so much for following through where I never did. I'm interested to hear how stable it is in PG and VG.