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A LIFE TRANSFORMED...
- Thread starter antrocles
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Antrocles,
You mentioned in your first post about the 'Jaguar on The Chain'. I have researched and found some additional information on this phenomena that may be of interest to you:
The Tragic Cosmovision
There is an ambiguity inherent in shamanic practice, where the dangerous work of healing and sorcery intersect. Because shamans possess spirit darts, and with them the power to kill, the boundary between sorcerer and shaman is indistinct. Such shamanism, says social anthropologist Carlos Fausto, “thrives on ambivalence.”
In the Upper Amazon, life and death are inextricably intertwined, and the cosmos is conceptualized in terms of predator-prey relationships. Indigenous Amazonian communities often draw a connection among attack sorcery, hunting, warfare, and predation — particularly by the jaguar, the ultimate predator. By forcibly inserting pathogenic darts into bodies, sorcery is a form of human predation; the sorcerer is an eater of human flesh; the Piaroa always consider a disease to be a process of being eaten. Stories among the Sharanahua explicitly relate shamans to cannibalism. The shaman Ruapitsi, they say, ate one of his wives; so powerful was his hunger for human flesh that he cut pieces from his own thigh for food. His second wife killed him with an axe. Shamans are often equated with jaguars — indeed, are thought to become jaguars.
Sorcery is the evil twin of healing. Instead of extracting harmful objects from sick bodies, the sorcerer introduces them; instead of maintaining relationships of trust and friendship, the sorcerer is antisocial, dangerous, secretive. Thus, too, healing and harming are intertwined.
The Shipibo clearly state that the healing act itself ineluctably causes harm — that to remove the sickness from one person is to cast it upon another who lacks the power to repel it. Since the illness-causing substance cannot be destroyed, the shaman, in curing one, always harms another. In the same way, Yagua shamans toss extracted sickness-causing darts toward the sun, where they reach the subterranean realms of the people-without-an-anus, causing considerable harm. Even more, the harm multiplies. In reprisal, the shamans of the people-without-an-anus fling balls of earth at the Yagua, on which their children sometimes choke.
In the same way, in return for successful hunting, the Tukano shaman must pay a fee — the lives of living people, who are sent to serve the Master of Animals. The shaman drinks ayahuasca and sees these victims in the form of birds sitting on the rafters of the spirit’s house. The lives are those of people who live far away; when the shaman learns that people have died in some other place, he knows that his debt has been paid.
And this works in the other direction as well. Among many indigenous peoples of the Guyana Amazon, the term canaima refers both to a mode of ritual killing and to its practitioners, a form of dark shamanism involving the mutilation and lingering death of its victim, who becomes, after death, the shaman’s food. But the killing of the helpless victim is also seen as a human sacrifice to Makunaima, the creator of all animals and plants, in return for his bounty to humans, and in order to ensure his continuing benevolence; the victim is food for lord jaguar and the garden spirit
I also have used Ayahuasca and smoked DMT. I also thought these where tools to grow spiritually but I do not believe this anymore.
You mentioned in your first of this thread:
This to me doesn't sound benevolent at all and doesn't respect free will in the least. Animal possesion in the Shamanic world is very common and these entities are your 'allys' aslong as your in line with what they want. Would you agree with me that this sounds dangerous?
A person with much Shamanic experiance also had this to tell me:
Antrocles, I am not trying to be confrontational. I always just try to find the 'Truth' in things. And in my research I have found that Shamanism is a dangerous path and a slippery slope with 'bargains' between yourself and other entities that have there own goals and desires that may be at odds with yours.
One thing that I have learnt is that in the Spiritual world, it is very hard to discern between good and evil, and things that look good on the surface may be otherwise.
You mentioned in your first post about the 'Jaguar on The Chain'. I have researched and found some additional information on this phenomena that may be of interest to you:
The Tragic Cosmovision
There is an ambiguity inherent in shamanic practice, where the dangerous work of healing and sorcery intersect. Because shamans possess spirit darts, and with them the power to kill, the boundary between sorcerer and shaman is indistinct. Such shamanism, says social anthropologist Carlos Fausto, “thrives on ambivalence.”
In the Upper Amazon, life and death are inextricably intertwined, and the cosmos is conceptualized in terms of predator-prey relationships. Indigenous Amazonian communities often draw a connection among attack sorcery, hunting, warfare, and predation — particularly by the jaguar, the ultimate predator. By forcibly inserting pathogenic darts into bodies, sorcery is a form of human predation; the sorcerer is an eater of human flesh; the Piaroa always consider a disease to be a process of being eaten. Stories among the Sharanahua explicitly relate shamans to cannibalism. The shaman Ruapitsi, they say, ate one of his wives; so powerful was his hunger for human flesh that he cut pieces from his own thigh for food. His second wife killed him with an axe. Shamans are often equated with jaguars — indeed, are thought to become jaguars.
Sorcery is the evil twin of healing. Instead of extracting harmful objects from sick bodies, the sorcerer introduces them; instead of maintaining relationships of trust and friendship, the sorcerer is antisocial, dangerous, secretive. Thus, too, healing and harming are intertwined.
The Shipibo clearly state that the healing act itself ineluctably causes harm — that to remove the sickness from one person is to cast it upon another who lacks the power to repel it. Since the illness-causing substance cannot be destroyed, the shaman, in curing one, always harms another. In the same way, Yagua shamans toss extracted sickness-causing darts toward the sun, where they reach the subterranean realms of the people-without-an-anus, causing considerable harm. Even more, the harm multiplies. In reprisal, the shamans of the people-without-an-anus fling balls of earth at the Yagua, on which their children sometimes choke.
In the same way, in return for successful hunting, the Tukano shaman must pay a fee — the lives of living people, who are sent to serve the Master of Animals. The shaman drinks ayahuasca and sees these victims in the form of birds sitting on the rafters of the spirit’s house. The lives are those of people who live far away; when the shaman learns that people have died in some other place, he knows that his debt has been paid.
And this works in the other direction as well. Among many indigenous peoples of the Guyana Amazon, the term canaima refers both to a mode of ritual killing and to its practitioners, a form of dark shamanism involving the mutilation and lingering death of its victim, who becomes, after death, the shaman’s food. But the killing of the helpless victim is also seen as a human sacrifice to Makunaima, the creator of all animals and plants, in return for his bounty to humans, and in order to ensure his continuing benevolence; the victim is food for lord jaguar and the garden spirit
I also have used Ayahuasca and smoked DMT. I also thought these where tools to grow spiritually but I do not believe this anymore.
You mentioned in your first of this thread:
This to me doesn't sound benevolent at all and doesn't respect free will in the least. Animal possesion in the Shamanic world is very common and these entities are your 'allys' aslong as your in line with what they want. Would you agree with me that this sounds dangerous?
A person with much Shamanic experiance also had this to tell me:
Antrocles, I am not trying to be confrontational. I always just try to find the 'Truth' in things. And in my research I have found that Shamanism is a dangerous path and a slippery slope with 'bargains' between yourself and other entities that have there own goals and desires that may be at odds with yours.
One thing that I have learnt is that in the Spiritual world, it is very hard to discern between good and evil, and things that look good on the surface may be otherwise.
Rooftop
Rising Star
Hi sgtWow 
Very interesting points you are bringing up here. It's pretty rare to see such points of view expressed here.
Having also witnessed the negative side of psychedelics on me and others (attack by negative "spirits", possession, mental problems, and quite simply bad trips...) as well as the positive (healing, purging, reconnection,...), I always like to hear about both sides.
One sentence struck me as deserving more investigation:
The fact remains that these are powerful tools, and I (and surely many others) have often felt like "a caveman in a computer room"...looking at a chair and wondering what's that strange horse...
Very interesting points you are bringing up here. It's pretty rare to see such points of view expressed here.
Having also witnessed the negative side of psychedelics on me and others (attack by negative "spirits", possession, mental problems, and quite simply bad trips...) as well as the positive (healing, purging, reconnection,...), I always like to hear about both sides.
One sentence struck me as deserving more investigation:
I sincerely hope this is not true. If healing oneself only harms another, the whole thing becomes useless. I hope that when I purge on ayahuasca, I'm processing negative into positive, the same way the shit and vomit become great plant fertilisers!
Would you care to elaborate on this? There are numerous testimonies of positive life changes these substances have triggered...
The fact remains that these are powerful tools, and I (and surely many others) have often felt like "a caveman in a computer room"...looking at a chair and wondering what's that strange horse...
sgtWow..
I think you need to be careful here to be honest. Cultural relativism is something we in the west tend to not take into account..an ideology that holds true for one in they're own culture(however literal), may not hold true for another in it's relevance to they're paradigm.
When you make statements such as "Sorcery is the evil twin of healing. Instead of extracting harmful objects from sick bodies, the sorcerer introduces them; instead of maintaining relationships of trust and friendship, the sorcerer is antisocial, dangerous, secretive. Thus, too, healing and harming are intertwined"..it sounds like you have jumbled all these different modalitied together, mixing them up, so I cant take what you say as serious at face value. "Sorcery" has nothing to do with amazonian currandismo, just as "shamanism" has nothing to do with it. They are distinct practices from very very different parts of the world. This type of gross overgeneralization is like a plague within western anthropology. I wrote a paper on this for one of my anth classes on magick and religion. The way terms like "witchcraft" and "sorcery" are used today to describe malicious magickal practices of amazian culutres etc is a discrace to the anthrolpogical movement as a whole, and it's like stepping on the face of an entire ancient culture from where such terms were birthed. To make any point from that standpoint is like grasping in the dark at analogies from one culture that doesnt have the exact counterparts to practices from the culture that the terms are being forced into. It becomes nothing but a gross cop-out.
That said. I live in the west. I dont live in the amazon. I dont believe in sickness causing darts..and not becasue I dont believe they arent real and tangible to the people of whome that culture belongs to, but becasue those modalities dont have any merit in the culture I belong to. I dont think reality is such a static or objective a thing in that sense..the world I dream is far different from that which another may dream.
At the end of the day it's your nervous system. YOU are the roadman. Not some animal spirit etc unless you believe otherwise and allow these modalities to become the imprints you're running.
"I also have used Ayahuasca and smoked DMT. I also thought these where tools to grow spiritually but I do not believe this anymore."
"This to me doesn't sound benevolent at all and doesn't respect free will in the least. Animal possesion in the Shamanic world is very common and these entities are your 'allys' aslong as your in line with what they want. Would you agree with me that this sounds dangerous?
A person with much Shamanic experiance also had this to tell me:
Quote:
Alliances with “spirits” can be dubious and are often fickle. Relying on spirit helpers depends on either your control over them or their good will towards you. However close you may feel them to be; they can turn on and betray you on a whim. I’ve seen this in my own experience, and curanderos like Pablo Amaringo have quit the path after his helpers betrayed him. (He wasn’t the only ayahuasquero this has happened to, either.) "
Now, Im not saying I dont believe in spirits or beings that exist on other levels..I have my own ideas abotu that I dont wish to get into here. But what you are talking about IMO really has it's basis in cultural modalities. Mckenna was right when he said that "culture is an operating system"..Take a look at the dani tribes of papua new guinea..Here is a great video that might help understand what I am saying..it's a great video anyway for anyone into anthropology.
These people have a complex mythology built up around the idea fo "spirit" that is seamlessly interwoven into all aspects of life. We in the west tend to seperate spiritual/religious belief from that of our daily lives. The dani tribes believe in revenge as a way to appeal to the spirits..they believe for every member of the tribe that is killed in war they must return the act and kill another member of the opposing tribe in order to maintain spiritual equilibrium. They are always at war for no other reason than that the cultural system they operae under dictates it. Becasue of this, the revenge sought out by each waring tribe really is the only thing that brings balance to the people of the tribe, if opnly for a moment. This is becasue all of this exists within a world generated within the minds of these people. It is a cultural preset and nothing else. The view they hold in reguards to spirit is certainly not true for me at all..nor is my view true for them. We are different people on different sides of the planet running very different programs.
Now I am not saying that underlying all biological life on planet earth, and extending even into the non-biological world there isn't a more universal fundamental reality..becasue I do. I just dont really think that is wht we are pointing at here.
In the amazonian world an act inflicted upon one person will be returned via magic darts etc..it is a culture of retaliation in that sense. It is not at all buddhist in its ideals in reguards to personal growth. Not that I wish to idealize buddhism either buts it sa good example. In the tribal societies of the peoples of the amazon ayahuasca doesnt really seem to be used for personal reflection to the degree it is used that way in the west. That is a reflection of where we are as opposed to where they are at more than anything else. Of course there are retreats and this whole aya tourism thing now that does put more focus on that, simply becasue it caters to us westerners. Within a tribal society group cohesion is much more important. There isnt much use for the individual in that paradigm. People have roles, and they play them..and the tribe thrives.
I think there is a deeper level to be attained with ayhauasca and otherwise..and if you are hung up on shooting magic darts to heal or hurt, you havent reached it.
The placebo effect is a very real thing, and I think to an extent the worlds of which we dream into being our true to each of us who dream them..This is kinda hard to explain though and boarerline esoteric so I wont get into that...
I think you need to be careful here to be honest. Cultural relativism is something we in the west tend to not take into account..an ideology that holds true for one in they're own culture(however literal), may not hold true for another in it's relevance to they're paradigm.
When you make statements such as "Sorcery is the evil twin of healing. Instead of extracting harmful objects from sick bodies, the sorcerer introduces them; instead of maintaining relationships of trust and friendship, the sorcerer is antisocial, dangerous, secretive. Thus, too, healing and harming are intertwined"..it sounds like you have jumbled all these different modalitied together, mixing them up, so I cant take what you say as serious at face value. "Sorcery" has nothing to do with amazonian currandismo, just as "shamanism" has nothing to do with it. They are distinct practices from very very different parts of the world. This type of gross overgeneralization is like a plague within western anthropology. I wrote a paper on this for one of my anth classes on magick and religion. The way terms like "witchcraft" and "sorcery" are used today to describe malicious magickal practices of amazian culutres etc is a discrace to the anthrolpogical movement as a whole, and it's like stepping on the face of an entire ancient culture from where such terms were birthed. To make any point from that standpoint is like grasping in the dark at analogies from one culture that doesnt have the exact counterparts to practices from the culture that the terms are being forced into. It becomes nothing but a gross cop-out.
That said. I live in the west. I dont live in the amazon. I dont believe in sickness causing darts..and not becasue I dont believe they arent real and tangible to the people of whome that culture belongs to, but becasue those modalities dont have any merit in the culture I belong to. I dont think reality is such a static or objective a thing in that sense..the world I dream is far different from that which another may dream.
At the end of the day it's your nervous system. YOU are the roadman. Not some animal spirit etc unless you believe otherwise and allow these modalities to become the imprints you're running.
"I also have used Ayahuasca and smoked DMT. I also thought these where tools to grow spiritually but I do not believe this anymore."
"This to me doesn't sound benevolent at all and doesn't respect free will in the least. Animal possesion in the Shamanic world is very common and these entities are your 'allys' aslong as your in line with what they want. Would you agree with me that this sounds dangerous?
A person with much Shamanic experiance also had this to tell me:
Quote:
Alliances with “spirits” can be dubious and are often fickle. Relying on spirit helpers depends on either your control over them or their good will towards you. However close you may feel them to be; they can turn on and betray you on a whim. I’ve seen this in my own experience, and curanderos like Pablo Amaringo have quit the path after his helpers betrayed him. (He wasn’t the only ayahuasquero this has happened to, either.) "
Now, Im not saying I dont believe in spirits or beings that exist on other levels..I have my own ideas abotu that I dont wish to get into here. But what you are talking about IMO really has it's basis in cultural modalities. Mckenna was right when he said that "culture is an operating system"..Take a look at the dani tribes of papua new guinea..Here is a great video that might help understand what I am saying..it's a great video anyway for anyone into anthropology.
These people have a complex mythology built up around the idea fo "spirit" that is seamlessly interwoven into all aspects of life. We in the west tend to seperate spiritual/religious belief from that of our daily lives. The dani tribes believe in revenge as a way to appeal to the spirits..they believe for every member of the tribe that is killed in war they must return the act and kill another member of the opposing tribe in order to maintain spiritual equilibrium. They are always at war for no other reason than that the cultural system they operae under dictates it. Becasue of this, the revenge sought out by each waring tribe really is the only thing that brings balance to the people of the tribe, if opnly for a moment. This is becasue all of this exists within a world generated within the minds of these people. It is a cultural preset and nothing else. The view they hold in reguards to spirit is certainly not true for me at all..nor is my view true for them. We are different people on different sides of the planet running very different programs.
Now I am not saying that underlying all biological life on planet earth, and extending even into the non-biological world there isn't a more universal fundamental reality..becasue I do. I just dont really think that is wht we are pointing at here.
In the amazonian world an act inflicted upon one person will be returned via magic darts etc..it is a culture of retaliation in that sense. It is not at all buddhist in its ideals in reguards to personal growth. Not that I wish to idealize buddhism either buts it sa good example. In the tribal societies of the peoples of the amazon ayahuasca doesnt really seem to be used for personal reflection to the degree it is used that way in the west. That is a reflection of where we are as opposed to where they are at more than anything else. Of course there are retreats and this whole aya tourism thing now that does put more focus on that, simply becasue it caters to us westerners. Within a tribal society group cohesion is much more important. There isnt much use for the individual in that paradigm. People have roles, and they play them..and the tribe thrives.
I think there is a deeper level to be attained with ayhauasca and otherwise..and if you are hung up on shooting magic darts to heal or hurt, you havent reached it.
The placebo effect is a very real thing, and I think to an extent the worlds of which we dream into being our true to each of us who dream them..This is kinda hard to explain though and boarerline esoteric so I wont get into that...
thank you for that fractal- extremely solid points and eloquently made...
i am in alignment more or less with fractal's take on this. i did not grow up in the jungle, nor do i have that framework of existence set up to hang everything i've learned on. my paradigm is the western world and on some deeper level i have decided it to be so. on that same deeper level, i have also decided to explore my psycho-spiritual nature very deeply in this lifetime and bring about a shift in my perception of not so much my environment, but my self...
the source of all environments..
the growth i have had and continue to experience through the use of these righteous plants is first and foremost for the understanding of my self. solo. the microcosm of the universe. i believe that the secoya understand that when groups from the west come to learn from them. we are on a different wavelength. still human....still part of the whole...but a completely different vantage of life.
that being said, i do appreciate your concern and the information is definitely intriguing. in all the time don tintin and don rogelio shared information with me, they never discussed darts, black magic, healing at the expense of another's suffering, etc..
they only told me (quite plainly), "to heal is the greatest thing a person can do on this earth in their lifetime. it is the noblest calling and a tremendous responsibility because it carries with it the mandate that one will live a life of service until they die."
they take their healing seriously.. :shock:
as for the jaguar on a chain part....i got from them that it was simply an affirmation of what i knew and struggled with for weeks upon returning from annihilation: i would never be able to separate myself from that experience. i would always have to live with it as a very part of me. like chiron struck with an arrow dipped in medusa's blood....the wound would never heal, but because of it, my personal quest to try to cure myself would prove to be my greatest gift to others. it's really not too much unlike that archetypal tale. i went crazy. i never FULLY came back. i spend my days now finding ways to keep my mind quiet and still..ways of getting out of myself and being of service to others. in the end, though i struggle within myself to maintain inner peace, it has made me a better person and one who can, through his compassion for all beings, help others find inner peace. hence the focus on my healing room. it's healing to me to focus on it being a righteous space for others. others find it healing to be in.
there isn't one single dart anywhere to be found....
L&G!
i am in alignment more or less with fractal's take on this. i did not grow up in the jungle, nor do i have that framework of existence set up to hang everything i've learned on. my paradigm is the western world and on some deeper level i have decided it to be so. on that same deeper level, i have also decided to explore my psycho-spiritual nature very deeply in this lifetime and bring about a shift in my perception of not so much my environment, but my self...
the source of all environments..
the growth i have had and continue to experience through the use of these righteous plants is first and foremost for the understanding of my self. solo. the microcosm of the universe. i believe that the secoya understand that when groups from the west come to learn from them. we are on a different wavelength. still human....still part of the whole...but a completely different vantage of life.
that being said, i do appreciate your concern and the information is definitely intriguing. in all the time don tintin and don rogelio shared information with me, they never discussed darts, black magic, healing at the expense of another's suffering, etc..
they only told me (quite plainly), "to heal is the greatest thing a person can do on this earth in their lifetime. it is the noblest calling and a tremendous responsibility because it carries with it the mandate that one will live a life of service until they die."
they take their healing seriously.. :shock:
as for the jaguar on a chain part....i got from them that it was simply an affirmation of what i knew and struggled with for weeks upon returning from annihilation: i would never be able to separate myself from that experience. i would always have to live with it as a very part of me. like chiron struck with an arrow dipped in medusa's blood....the wound would never heal, but because of it, my personal quest to try to cure myself would prove to be my greatest gift to others. it's really not too much unlike that archetypal tale. i went crazy. i never FULLY came back. i spend my days now finding ways to keep my mind quiet and still..ways of getting out of myself and being of service to others. in the end, though i struggle within myself to maintain inner peace, it has made me a better person and one who can, through his compassion for all beings, help others find inner peace. hence the focus on my healing room. it's healing to me to focus on it being a righteous space for others. others find it healing to be in.
there isn't one single dart anywhere to be found....
L&G!
for any who may happen upon this thread, i thought i would let you all see what the 'fruit' of my work has amounted to thus far. the 'healing room' has become a complete reality and the work that takes place in it fills my hear with joy and gratitude.
the sound healing is profound....many of you will remember threads i wrote years ago extolling the many profound effects of solfeggio frequencies on my work with our beloved molecule. i still maintain my deep belief that there is something quite real and quite important about the nature of vibration and it's relationship to DMT.
all in all, the work in the healing room is...well...HEALING. if it's just a straght sound therapy session (with crystal therapy included), a sound therapy session with a sacred mapacho-cannibis ritual beforehand (deep journeys here....and a taste of secoya wisdom as well), or the Deepest Meditation Therapy guided with Secoya-inspired techniques, this room will bring about a shift. every single person who has stepped foot into this space has made a comment on it's palpable energy....before doing anything!
i want to extend an invitation to any and all of you, my beautiful nexus family, who find themselves in the los angeles area. i have met many of you over the years and i can only say that nexians are truly the next evolution. deep people. beautiful people. righteous people. i love all of you and would love to know all of you in person at some point. this amazing community has given me so much over the years. i will never be able to give back proportionately...
and with that, i give you A THUNDEROUS SILENCE. www.athunderoussilence.com
thank you, all of you, once again for allowing this to come through me.
with the deepest love and gratitude!!
the sound healing is profound....many of you will remember threads i wrote years ago extolling the many profound effects of solfeggio frequencies on my work with our beloved molecule. i still maintain my deep belief that there is something quite real and quite important about the nature of vibration and it's relationship to DMT.
all in all, the work in the healing room is...well...HEALING. if it's just a straght sound therapy session (with crystal therapy included), a sound therapy session with a sacred mapacho-cannibis ritual beforehand (deep journeys here....and a taste of secoya wisdom as well), or the Deepest Meditation Therapy guided with Secoya-inspired techniques, this room will bring about a shift. every single person who has stepped foot into this space has made a comment on it's palpable energy....before doing anything!
i want to extend an invitation to any and all of you, my beautiful nexus family, who find themselves in the los angeles area. i have met many of you over the years and i can only say that nexians are truly the next evolution. deep people. beautiful people. righteous people. i love all of you and would love to know all of you in person at some point. this amazing community has given me so much over the years. i will never be able to give back proportionately...
and with that, i give you A THUNDEROUS SILENCE. www.athunderoussilence.com
thank you, all of you, once again for allowing this to come through me.
with the deepest love and gratitude!!
Serenity
Rising Star
antrocles, I wish I would have read this earlier in the year and with the knowledge I have now, as I've wanted to meet someone just like you and have visited the area recently. You're inspiring and there's deep meaning in your words. I struggle to find a shred of anything even remotely offensive or selfish in anything you say and this immediately causes profound interest in me. I'm grateful to have stumbled onto this thread. If nothing else, I would very much like to meet you if I come that way again which is likely as I'm a coast dweller currently. I hope you won't mind if I simply ask you some questions one day.
You are appreciated. Thank you.
You are appreciated. Thank you.
Serenity said:
brother (or sister!) -
thank you so much for the kind words. that's what this community is all about...for me anyways. always an opportunity to come from the highest self. trust me, you come out my way and allow me the honor of sharing what i do with you, you will be giving as much as you will be receiving! i have met more than a few nexians at this point and have had the distinct honor of doing work with many of them. i am floored constantly by how incredible you all are. WE all are!
thank you again SO MUCH for such kind words. come by anytime! (that goes for ALL of you!)
with the deepest LOVE AND GRATITUDE!!