• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

A Psychedelic History of Dune

I was rewatching Dune tonight to brush up so I can see Part 2 in theaters tomorrow (yay!) and ended up going down a deep psychedelic rabbit hole regarding this story. When I read the book and initially watched the 2021 movie, the parallels between 'spice' and psychedelics absolutely occurred to me, and I had heard something to the same effect around the internet but never really gave it much thought - after all, I generally parallel any tale slightly profound or introspective with psychedelics, but psychedelics (specifically mushrooms) were in fact incredibly influential to this even more incredibly influential book, so I figured I'd share what I learned for those who might be interested.

Spice, or melange, is a hallucinogenic drug in Dune considered to be the most important substance in the universe. It supposedly prolongs life, bestows "heightened vitality and awareness," and unlocks prescience within certain humans. Naturally, this seems very clearly influenced by psychedelics, and to further the evidence, Frank Herbert was a cultivator and enthusiast of magic mushrooms. But the influence didn't end there. In Paul Stamet's book "Mycelium Running" there's a passage detailing Frank's direct testament of the influence of psilocybin mushrooms in Dune. An article can be found here, but I'll post the excerpt below.

Frank went on to tell me that much of the premise of Dune—the magic spice (spores) that allowed the bending of space (tripping), the giant sand worms (maggots digesting mushrooms), the eyes of the Fremen (the cerulean blue of Psilocybe mushrooms), the mysticism of the female spiritual warriors, the Bene Gesserits (influenced by the tales of Maria Sabina and the sacred mushroom cults of Mexico)—came from his perception of the fungal life cycle, and his imagination was stimulated through his experiences with the use of magic mushrooms" (Stamets 127).

It sounds like fanatic extrapolation when in fact it was the message of Frank himself. I find it incredibly fascinating how one of (if not the most) famous sci-fi books ever largely exists because of mushrooms, yet isn't really an acknowledged work of 'psychedelic literature' or associated with it. Of course, I don't think this should distract from the book's focal message, which spice doubles as a metaphor for, being an analogy of our greed for oil in the Middle East and our severe crimes against indigenous people - which is part of what made Dune as revolutionary as it is. Sci-fi was a very western-centric genre during and before the '60's, so for a sci-fi story written by an American white guy (as they all were), Herbert was the first key player in creating a space story that centered around so many Eastern ideas. Although, I believe these two things are inherently connected, as can be seen in the impact that people like Maria Sabina had on the story. Frank Herbert had a fascination with different world religions, which can be seen in the spiritual and introspective aspects throughout the book, and the medicinal and spiritual use of psychoactive substances in these different religions had an invaluable impact upon his books and message. The Dune Deluxe Edition states he had some experience with peyote as well, but I'm not sure of any other hallucinogens which might have contributed to his work.

Aside from the impacts of mushrooms and cults, there was another aspect of spice I found fascinating that deals with, in a sense, psychedelic geometry. It's not an integral part of Dune, merely mentioned in passing to seemingly give a justification for why this substance is just so important to the universe, but one of its uses is to facilitate interstellar travel, which without spice, would be completely impossible. I've encountered this being mistaken as 'in addition to spice being a hallucinogen, it is also used as fuel for ships,' when it's the hallucinogenic qualities of spice that make interstellar travel possible. This is because, as Herbert proposed, spice allows navigators to navigate "folded space" and presumably get ships through wormholes and the like to cover vast distances quickly. (I'll be extrapolating here), but this is similar to a question I've had about psychedelics for years, which is how the change of geometric perception in the psychedelic experience could have practical uses. If this is the idea Frank Herbert was trying to explore in 1964, that was wildly futuristic for a man in a culture that had 'discovered' these drugs in only the past few years. And sixty years later, it's still a question we've yet to explore. We generally think of the practical uses of psychedelics in terms of the mental or spiritual - it's a question of what we can derive from the experience to better ourselves and to take inspiration from, or to become more in touch with the spirit world. I believe though, that there could be some objective benefit directly relating to the experience that could be taken as well. After all, if we're experiencing geometry and concepts impossible to comprehend in a sober state (such as wormholes or 'folded space'), surely there must be some sort of logical application to take from this. Non-euclidian geometry, differential geometry, spatial geometry, and other abstract mathematical fields are some of the most difficult fields because they're just so hard to comprehend, yet have very practical applications in higher-level mathematics that most people are incapable of performing...

It seems to me that if such concepts could be comprehended, it could really lead to breakthroughs in not just mental health, but applicable science, allowing people to comprehend the abstract. And it seems to me that Frank Herbert was exploring this idea at the very birth of American psychedelic culture. Perhaps not in a way grounded in actual science, but as with most sci-fi, its importance is in the proposition of its ideas. And Dune certainly had many of those - from the impact of our oil extraction on the environment, to the diversity and influence of religion, the importance of introspection, the scientific progress to be found in altering our minds, and our injustices against indigenous people, all being a very important lesson for humanity... and fascinatingly enough, influenced by psychedelics!


Anybody else watching Dune Part 2?? =)
 
Thanks! And thanks for sharing that video, it was a funny watch. I can only imagine that'd be absolute hell to actually synthesize, God knows what it'd do to your brain.
The questions of synthesis and activity were at least touched upon in the video. The main thing is that squeezing two copper atoms into a porphyrin ring is essentially impossible. The other is that it's way too polar to get into the brain, especially since it appears to have a hybrid (and non-sulphated) chondroitin/chitin-like polymeric backbone (although the structure, being cobbled together as the chemical structure equivalent of a work of fan fiction, doesn't indicate that polymerisation explicitly, glossing it over with some bonds to hydrogen atoms where further oxygen bridges should be attached). The monomer is the uronic acid equivalent of N-acetylglucosamine, apart from those missing oxygens.
The porphyrin is joined via its vinyl group to a cinnamic acid amide of cadaverine, and the oxidised chitin portion connects to the other nitrogen of the cadaverine via a lactyl-alanyl-glutamyl peptide chain.

It might be worth seeing what an AI might predict for the pharmacological properties of the melange molecule (and it is a real melange of a molecule!)

Shoddy diagram attached is my annotated excerpt from the Dune Encyclopaedia, which itself can be found on archive.org. Link in the video description. I'll add another, better diagram in a bit, just for fun 🤓melange_annotated.png
 
The main thing is that squeezing two copper atoms into a porphyrin ring is essentially impossible. The other is that it's way too polar to get into the brain, especially since it appears to have a hybrid (and non-sulphated) chondroitin/chitin-like polymeric backbone (although the structure, being cobbled together as the chemical structure equivalent of a work of fan fiction,

It might be worth seeing what an AI might predict for the pharmacological properties of the melange molecule (and it is a real melange of a molecule!)
Yeah, I was curious why whoever constructed the molecule decided it was a sensible idea to add the two coppers when it's already such a makeshift molecule in the first place. Maybe it was a crude attempt at trying to explain the blue eyes induced by spice, considering copper turns blue when it oxidizes. Not that it'd work, but we're talking about a substance pooped (or ejaculated(?) i've heard conflicting reports) by 1,200 foot space worms, so I think some creative liberty is a given.

And, forgive my chemical ignorance, but wouldn't this structure just completely collapse when met with water? (in the case of spice, both orally and intranasally) And after dissociation, is it possible that one of the products could have the psychoactive properties while the other products act as byproducts? In practice, when the spice is breathed in, some of it is broken down by water producing a compound possible to make its way to the brain after being absorbed by the lungs. So melange itself wouldn't necessarily be the proposed active compound, but one of the dissolution products. Again, I'm completely talking out of my spice-shoot with this. 😅 Sorry for any and all butchery of chemistry.

But it seems to me that considering they're always inhaling this stuff, if it had to be dissolved by water and make it to the lungs to become active, the psychoactive results would consist of a fraction of what's initially inhaled. This would account for why they aren't constantly f*'ed up with so much exposure. That, or melange just isn't very potent. (Or.. it's just a tolerance build-up... which would be the most logical answer...)

And yes, it certainly is a melange of a molecule! I love your comparison to it being the chemical equivalent of fan fiction 😂
 
Last edited:
It would be awesome (pardon my fantasy life) if Dr. Shulgin was alive, could analyze/modify that diagram and try to make it.
Fingers crossed, one of the youtube chemists may someday rise to the challenge.

An interesting thing about the impossible double copper porphyrin complex is that haemocyanin - the oxygen-bearing complex found in molluscs and crustaceans - does in fact contain twin copper atoms at its oxygen-binding centre. This, combined with the cheeky nod to chitin and chondroitin, shows that whoever cooked up the melange structure for the encyclopaedia did in fact know a few things about invertebrate biochemistry!
 
dissolved by water and make it to the lungs to become active, the psychoactive results would consist of a fraction of what's initially inhaled
Did Frank Herbert unwittingly foresee nebulization/'vaping' here?

Taken individually, the only component of melange (I'm tempted to call it 'melangin', 'cos that's what chemists do :D ) with any rôle in neurochemistry is the glutamate portion. That's a fairly meaningless assertion of course, but it does make me wonder how the glucopeptide part of the molecule compares with known neuropeptides. What if melanginᵗᵐ turned out to be a kappa opioid agonist like salvinorin A?
 
Did Frank Herbert unwittingly foresee nebulization/'vaping' here?

What if melanginᵗᵐ turned out to be a kappa opioid agonist like salvinorin A?
Well, he is a sci-fi author, and predicting the future is their whole thing, but I think more credit should go the the chemist! It seems to me they tried bringing to life an actual way for Frank's vision of spice to work, the best they could at least.

If it is a kappa opioid agonist, then whoever made that molecule is a whole lot smarter they get credit for! I believe it was Dennis McKenna who said that Brian Roth told him if he had explicitly tried to make a kappa opioid agonist, it would look nothing like salvinorin A. There's no nitrogen or anything, it practically looks like cholesterol, and yet it's super selective for this receptor, and this was in the 80's I believe(?) I might be wrong. Anyways, it'd be pretty incredible for somebody who looks like they slapped together a chemical structure for a drug in a fictional book to have just casually created a kappa opioid agonist. But with their implementation of invertebrate blood chemistry, who knows, maybe we had an undercover genius designing this.
--Like Pandora said, if only Shulgin was still here to tell us 😞
 
Here's my redrawn version of melangin. I should reiterate, this really is just a bit of nerdy fun. Spider peptide neurotoxins do sometimes contain polyamines related to cadaverine, though... Took a while on this since it sent me down a rabbithole of lignin chemistry 😆
I tried doing a 3-D model of melangin but it crashed my modelling program 😖
melangin annotated.jpg
 
Urgh! I'm now on my fifth attempt of preparing the 3-D model since my ancient computer keeps freezing up during the structural optimization process 😫😂
This time I'm turning off all non-essential processes.🙃

PS - A prize of a lifetime's supply of fictional melangin goes to the person who provides the best semi-systematic name of melangin, as judged by me.
 
Last edited:
Would you try it?
The spice….
The spice melange!
🌗
Me personally? Not without feeding it to a few labrats first.

Now, having done a bit more digging around the actual scientific literature, I'd say there's a fair to middling chance that melangin might work as an antibiotic. This is pretty amazing considering the purported properties of the spice melange include "immunity to all bacterial & fungal diseases". But yeah - first synthesis, then clinical trials 🙃 👩‍🚀🚀 🍄
 
"Sacrae Vitaexus Porphyrinatum-Cupreum"

🌟💫✨🌌

And second close one:

"Navigatum Elixir Vitae Bicuprifer"

🪙🪄💫👌


Kind regards,

The Traveler
A valiant attempt - but not quite what I was looking for 😁

The winning entry might start with something like "4-O-(2,4-dideoxy-2-acetamidoglucuron-1β-yl)-[etc.]". Just as a hint.
 
A valiant attempt - but not quite what I was looking for 😁

The winning entry might start with something like "4-O-(2,4-dideoxy-2-acetamidoglucuron-1β-yl)-[etc.]". Just as a hint.
In that case, I got the one for you:

Copper(II)-bis[29-carboxy-31-(2-aminoethyl)-26,28-dioxo-1,5,9,13,17,21-hexaoxa-25,27-diazacycloheptacosyl]-decahydro-[20]annulene

✨👌


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
Back
Top Bottom