-
Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).
Achieving Nirvana
- Thread starter Exist
- Start date
This active thread deals with your question extensively: A discussion on the achievement of buddha hood - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
In short, it depends on your definitions, but seeing as anything is possible... Nirvana certainly is.
Everyone has experience in this field whether they realize it or not. That said, I think people are trying to run before they crawl when shooting directly for enlightenment or Nirvana. Shorter forays and glimpses of more perfect consciousness are more practical or realistic. Until you have had a number of Satoris, transcendental moments, or ecstatic blisses... it seems pre-mature to be talking about ultimate or permanent states of enlightenment... if such states can even be called permanent.
Most people finger paint before setting out to make masterpieces.
In short, it depends on your definitions, but seeing as anything is possible... Nirvana certainly is.
Everyone has experience in this field whether they realize it or not. That said, I think people are trying to run before they crawl when shooting directly for enlightenment or Nirvana. Shorter forays and glimpses of more perfect consciousness are more practical or realistic. Until you have had a number of Satoris, transcendental moments, or ecstatic blisses... it seems pre-mature to be talking about ultimate or permanent states of enlightenment... if such states can even be called permanent.
Most people finger paint before setting out to make masterpieces.
Exist
Rising Star
Hyperspace Fool said:
Ahh, i understand. I have had a few experiences with satoris, but not many. I'm not as experienced in DMT as I am in acid and shrooms, but I will be experimenting and seeing what I can experience through natural meditation and DMT.
I've always had a problem with the idea of nirvana... it seems so static. I am much more interested what has recently been termed evolutionary enlightenment which according to modern ideas is an alignment with the universal evolutionary impulse that has existed, like the intrinsic momentum of every particle, from the very beginning of what we call the universe. In that sense enlightenment or Nirvana is not the goal, but only one state, perhaps one improvement on an endless road towards becoming... instead of just being.
that's what I see in dmt - the opportunity to better myself, to develop myself, to evolve, and thus be in line with this idea
that's what I see in dmt - the opportunity to better myself, to develop myself, to evolve, and thus be in line with this idea
PrimalWisdom
Everything the light touches
I dunno if I believe in the whole Buddhist vibe etc. It certainly is interesting enough, but I try not pigeon-hole my experience of life and the universe.
Having said that I do believe I have experienced what they perceive as "enlightenment" for me it was an AHAAAH moment during a chained changa session. Sitting on my couch I suddenly made the connection between everything that is, was, will be and what never existed. It was shown to me as a series of paintings painted with the same brush, by the same artist but years apart. I recognised the hand holding the brush and sure enough I looked at my hands and it was me who was the artist, but I was also everything in the painting 9including the “God” showing me these paintings (very hard to sum up here tbh) At the moment I realised this everything suddenly clicked and for a split second I swear I heard "God" snigger at just how simple it really is to feel at one and/or understand "EVERYTHING".
I have battled to word exactly what happened to me, but I came out of that experience (which was only my 4th or so) with such a sense of purpose, a new found direction (even though I still think my souls compass is a little broken) It filled me with such joy to know that I, a mere mortal could experience what surely the Gods do every day. And that I was possibly a God, or at least still very connected to "IT" via a cosmic umbilical cord
So yeah if a understanding of everything and a state of cosmic awakening defines Nirvana, or at least aspects of it, then I think It can be achieved over and over again through the use of marvellous molecules like our ally here at the Nexus.
Having said that I do believe I have experienced what they perceive as "enlightenment" for me it was an AHAAAH moment during a chained changa session. Sitting on my couch I suddenly made the connection between everything that is, was, will be and what never existed. It was shown to me as a series of paintings painted with the same brush, by the same artist but years apart. I recognised the hand holding the brush and sure enough I looked at my hands and it was me who was the artist, but I was also everything in the painting 9including the “God” showing me these paintings (very hard to sum up here tbh) At the moment I realised this everything suddenly clicked and for a split second I swear I heard "God" snigger at just how simple it really is to feel at one and/or understand "EVERYTHING".
I have battled to word exactly what happened to me, but I came out of that experience (which was only my 4th or so) with such a sense of purpose, a new found direction (even though I still think my souls compass is a little broken) It filled me with such joy to know that I, a mere mortal could experience what surely the Gods do every day. And that I was possibly a God, or at least still very connected to "IT" via a cosmic umbilical cord
So yeah if a understanding of everything and a state of cosmic awakening defines Nirvana, or at least aspects of it, then I think It can be achieved over and over again through the use of marvellous molecules like our ally here at the Nexus.
Psikotrope
Rising Star
Buddhism like Advaita Vedanta (the Hindu nondual tradition) and other nondual traditions have the same goal. They use different terms like nirvana, shunyata, liberation, moksha, salvation, union with god, etc. They all speak according to traditional frameworks about the same "thing" which is ultimately beyond language. Read texts such as the Hsin Hsin Ming, the Tao Te Ching, the Ashtavakra and Avadhuta Gitas, The Gospel of Thomas and saints and sages like Meister Eckhart, Shankara, Ramana Maharshi, and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj for example.
They all expound a liberation or enlightenment that is nothing other than the recognition of our natural state as the nondual substratum of reality. Buddhism teaches "no-self" which is a transcendance of the world of impermenance, the ego, samsara and even the concept of nirvana resulting in Shunyata or emptiness. Advaita teaches that the true self the Atman is identical to the nondual ground of Being or Brahman. In both cases enlightenment/liberation is a falling away of the attachment and belief in the illusory body/mind. Both take the manifest world to be an illusion including the minds conviction that it is a separate autonomous entity, that is we are not who we 'think' we are, in fact 'we' are an illusion.
Our natural state is that of nondual Beingness or Awareness. The ego-self is a time/space bound delusion. The manifest world as well is only an apparent reality. The only real 'thing' is the Beingness or god, or Buddha nature, etc. For in order to be 'real' according to Advaita Vedanta a thing must exist at all times and in all places. We as people who were born, live for a time, and eventually die can not be 'real' in the absolute sense. The natural state is beyond time, space, language, dualities, or any description at all. As soon as we say that nonduality is god or nirvana that's not it. It is beyond the concepts of emptiness, nirvana and samsara. The Absolute ground of Being IS. Adding any sort of name or description just tarnishes its purity.
So to say something like "I want to achieve nirvana" only has any meaning to a person who believes they are a separate entity and can somehow 'get' something. If the ego is an illusion what can it get other than more illusion? The truth is that the natural state is always the case, we have only fooled ourselves into believing we are not enlightened or liberated. So we undertake as illusory selves practices like meditation or yoga to remember our essence, recognize our true state of Being, and effectively destroy the ego-self and attachment to the transient world.
We don't have to 'do' anything to be who we truly are as nondual Being. We are That already, as the Upanishads say "Thou Art That". All that must take place is a recognition of our intrinsic Aware/Beingness. This is called self-inquiry. You look at the body and ask if it is 'you'. Once it is seen that if the body was removed 'you' still remain you go on to the mind. Does the 'you' as located in the mind end if the mind goes? That is, if the thinking function ceases what is left? You believe you are your thoughts and feelings but actually the ego is a collection of memories, habits, form and name. Look past this mentality to that which is aware of your body and mind.
The witness of all this and the world apparently outside of you is the natural state. This is the attributeless I AM, pure Being. You know that you exist and this intuitive knowingness or awareness is what you truly are. It also follows that this natural state is the same in all apparent people. This Aware-Beingness is Buddha nature, Brahman, nirvana, and Christ-consciousness.
Don't take my word for it. Read the sources I mentioned as well as other sources in nonduality. But most of all investigate your experience via self-inquiry. If you have difficulty in self-inquiry meditation is a wonderful aid to help you quiet the mind and see the awareness behind the mind. The perceiver and perceived are One. Look for that which is aware of both perceiver and perceived. Meditation allows us to watch the whole game of mind without being caught up in its antics.
Finally, entheogens are a great way to come to this realization of Oneness and your natural state as that aware reality. They temporarily dissolve the boundaries of the ego and display in wonderful and breathtaking ways the interconnectedness and unity of reality.
I hope this has helped a little. And hopefully this wasn't to far off topic but I wish someone had been around to tell me this years ago. If any of this resonates with you my blog might be of interest. Hanumandass.wordpress.com
They all expound a liberation or enlightenment that is nothing other than the recognition of our natural state as the nondual substratum of reality. Buddhism teaches "no-self" which is a transcendance of the world of impermenance, the ego, samsara and even the concept of nirvana resulting in Shunyata or emptiness. Advaita teaches that the true self the Atman is identical to the nondual ground of Being or Brahman. In both cases enlightenment/liberation is a falling away of the attachment and belief in the illusory body/mind. Both take the manifest world to be an illusion including the minds conviction that it is a separate autonomous entity, that is we are not who we 'think' we are, in fact 'we' are an illusion.
Our natural state is that of nondual Beingness or Awareness. The ego-self is a time/space bound delusion. The manifest world as well is only an apparent reality. The only real 'thing' is the Beingness or god, or Buddha nature, etc. For in order to be 'real' according to Advaita Vedanta a thing must exist at all times and in all places. We as people who were born, live for a time, and eventually die can not be 'real' in the absolute sense. The natural state is beyond time, space, language, dualities, or any description at all. As soon as we say that nonduality is god or nirvana that's not it. It is beyond the concepts of emptiness, nirvana and samsara. The Absolute ground of Being IS. Adding any sort of name or description just tarnishes its purity.
So to say something like "I want to achieve nirvana" only has any meaning to a person who believes they are a separate entity and can somehow 'get' something. If the ego is an illusion what can it get other than more illusion? The truth is that the natural state is always the case, we have only fooled ourselves into believing we are not enlightened or liberated. So we undertake as illusory selves practices like meditation or yoga to remember our essence, recognize our true state of Being, and effectively destroy the ego-self and attachment to the transient world.
We don't have to 'do' anything to be who we truly are as nondual Being. We are That already, as the Upanishads say "Thou Art That". All that must take place is a recognition of our intrinsic Aware/Beingness. This is called self-inquiry. You look at the body and ask if it is 'you'. Once it is seen that if the body was removed 'you' still remain you go on to the mind. Does the 'you' as located in the mind end if the mind goes? That is, if the thinking function ceases what is left? You believe you are your thoughts and feelings but actually the ego is a collection of memories, habits, form and name. Look past this mentality to that which is aware of your body and mind.
The witness of all this and the world apparently outside of you is the natural state. This is the attributeless I AM, pure Being. You know that you exist and this intuitive knowingness or awareness is what you truly are. It also follows that this natural state is the same in all apparent people. This Aware-Beingness is Buddha nature, Brahman, nirvana, and Christ-consciousness.
Don't take my word for it. Read the sources I mentioned as well as other sources in nonduality. But most of all investigate your experience via self-inquiry. If you have difficulty in self-inquiry meditation is a wonderful aid to help you quiet the mind and see the awareness behind the mind. The perceiver and perceived are One. Look for that which is aware of both perceiver and perceived. Meditation allows us to watch the whole game of mind without being caught up in its antics.
Finally, entheogens are a great way to come to this realization of Oneness and your natural state as that aware reality. They temporarily dissolve the boundaries of the ego and display in wonderful and breathtaking ways the interconnectedness and unity of reality.
I hope this has helped a little. And hopefully this wasn't to far off topic but I wish someone had been around to tell me this years ago. If any of this resonates with you my blog might be of interest. Hanumandass.wordpress.com
I think we all have our own cultural bias/background which can alter what we as individuals regard the 'Nirvana' state as being all about.
IME, DMT, if vaporised correctly at a sufficient dose and taken in one hit, has the capacity to so totally annihilate the user that it goes beyond becoming at One with all that exists.It can go a good way beyond this, to a point where that what makes up the self is effectively vaporised to a zero-point.And as it condenses, thats where the pieces start to realign themselves.
I dunno if I would call this Nirvana, though.
IME, DMT, if vaporised correctly at a sufficient dose and taken in one hit, has the capacity to so totally annihilate the user that it goes beyond becoming at One with all that exists.It can go a good way beyond this, to a point where that what makes up the self is effectively vaporised to a zero-point.And as it condenses, thats where the pieces start to realign themselves.
I dunno if I would call this Nirvana, though.
Psikotrope
Rising Star
corpus callosum said:
The 'nirvana state' is just that, a state. States come and go like the awake, sleeping, or altered state. Further nirvana is a concept, a mental construct about something that denies conception. In my last post I pointed out that nonduality was beyond nirvana or samsara. The natural state is simply Being itself, irregardless of what manifest state appears to be taking place in time and space. I totally agree, the stateless state is beyond even the concept of being One. If all there is is Oneness how is it even possible to be at one with every-thing? From that 'place' its meaningless! When you've been there on DMT, meditation, or simple inquiry into the self you come back from the unmanifest and the manifest loses its teeth, it's all just a magnificent game, pleasure and pain have a new taste. Life is seen for what it is, you don't have to explain it, just enjoy the ride.
Jin
yes
nirvana exists , fortunately or not it cannot be described , for all that is described are just words and interpretations and language thus binding you still to a human construct
Nirvana can only be experienced , when one experiences it he knows , it is the purpose of all life , all life in the universe exists to experience Nirvana , Life is Nirvana , Death is Nirvana , the whole Cosmos is Nirvana , All experinence is Nirvana
all there is , is Nirvana
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
above are just a few words , Nirvana is a lot more
Nirvana can only be experienced , when one experiences it he knows , it is the purpose of all life , all life in the universe exists to experience Nirvana , Life is Nirvana , Death is Nirvana , the whole Cosmos is Nirvana , All experinence is Nirvana
all there is , is Nirvana
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
above are just a few words , Nirvana is a lot more
Psikotrope
Rising Star
Nirvana, Moksha, God, whatever yoh want to call it is everything...and nothing.
Jin said:
Psikotrope said:Nirvana, Moksha, God, whatever yoh want to call it is everything...and nothing.
Yeah.
And while we are here, it is nice to be able to share this with other/non-other beings...
A pleasure to be in the company of fellow I's peeking at infinity.
YTXian
Not an angry scientist but a mad one.
Great thread topic! I can understand how 'nirvana' can seem like a mythical state or even just lacking in good solid definition. It is the ultimate goal of meditaion and people just seem to fall all to peices when talking about it. Book Four part 1 ch.7 by Aleister Crowley deals with this subject beautifuly. Here is a link; Book Four - Part 1 . I realy recommend reading all of Book Four part 1 as it is breif, accurate, well written and just plain priceless.
Ofcourse books and information and lessons are valuable and helpful but once you know the path what is left but to walk it?
Ofcourse books and information and lessons are valuable and helpful but once you know the path what is left but to walk it?
Exist said:
Wow... that's a mouthful! I lean towards seeing Nirvana as a remembrance, more than an achievement. How about an achievement in remembrance? Yeah, that seems logical. A most intriguing and inspiring set of questions you raise, Exist.
In all honesty, I cannot truthfully say I have experienced Nirvana or even accurately understand what exactly, it is. You hit the nail on the head with your choice of the word "knowledgeable". Just what is knowledge? I THINK I have had experiences which have touched the eternal and the invisible plane of being (I think). I still question if I know anything for a certainty but I feel the yearning to explore the unknown.
The funny thing about the concept of "enlightenment" or any other state of mind expansion, is that one must be so engrossed in the experience, that one loses oneself in the process. This leads to a state of mental stillness and harmonious attunement. How can we chat about such a high level when we are attempting to use our rationale to describe it's elusive and indefinable nature?
At the core of my ideologies about Spirit and the transcendental realms, I cannot be both, an observer of and the living state. How does one see oneself without boundaries or definitions? I am essentially uncertain who I am. It's a common enough side effect form the practice of deep meditation and/or psychedelic usage. I have seen my personal vantage point evaporate before my subjectivity so many times... I pause before making any clear definitions about such an exalted plane of supraconsciousness.
When my mind is still and I have dissolved into the formless insubstantiality of the unbroken Oneness... I do not have a self in the same sense as when I exist within "normal" parameters. I/you/we discover new views into "reality" and regions of mind, which are beyond our grasp as witnesses to the fabric of our being. Something exponentially greater than our own personal desires and ambitions beckons our conscious focus into new awakenings and new vistas.
Perhaps we need to toss the questions about the state of Nirvana out, for the time being? It cannot be discussed nor thought about, as it implies transcendence and illumination. This cannot be found through intellect or reasoning. You know, we might find greater insights into the nature of Nirvana if we ask what is not Nirvana? I would think that what is not Nirvana is the total absence of a certain, specific type of knowledge. A knowledge which reveals or perhaps decodes the interconnection and indivisibility of the central core of all awareness (of being). An awareness of being existent within the Grid of the eternal expanse of God. :idea:
If we take the wisdom of our elders to heart, those sages, shamans, mystics and seers of yore... we find that most spiritual traditions depict two opposing forces at play. Truth and illusion. But... who judges which is which? For to be in a position of observation, we are separate from the subject of our observation. Our very witnessing is a form of duality.
I seems as if at it's very root, awareness is a SINGULAR phenomenon, so essentially, it is indivisible and non-dualistic in it's vibratory being. When we merge with the emptiness of the Clear Light of the Void, we discover that we are each and every one of us Divine being. We exist on multiple levels and are called to unite these dichotomies within ourselves, holistically, via our immersions within the insubstantial essence.
If this leads to an awakening of The Godhead or The Omniself, this is a pretty wonderful spiritual activation in the works. Both, organic and inevitable for the quarries of the individual soul. If it leads to the idea that existence is merely a random and hollow series of equally random phenomena, which have no meaning or purpose (but for those we project said characteristics upon them), this is not arguably NOT exactly what we conceive of as "Nirvana".
Such a thought-mechanism implies that Nirvana is not the objective state of the Tao as whole and limitless... but a variant of subjectivity. A perspective and a direct experience of the interconnection and holistic core of all that exists. This is a sublimely blissful realization, eh? 8)
All we can do is search beyond the appearances of what we see and perceive. Why so? Because ego cannot experience Nirvana. This is not to suggest that we should project our dreams and concepts about existence upon an infinite universe, rather, we might open ourselves to every possibility, so as to discern our own truths.
So, I guess I'm rattling on about how difficult it is to speak of such states of being and simultaneously remain rational enough to encode our communications with the same force and overwhelming intensity of such an Omniscient energy field. Finding our own Nirvana can never be as easy as finding the proper conceptualization to ponder.
If bliss is a characteristic of Nirvana, it must surely be because the loss of self is so expansive and radiant a transcendental experience. Washed into the formlessness of the indivisible quintessence... the mind is stopped and the soul bird allowed to take flight into infinity.
Perhaps Nirvana lives so deep within each of us that we can only perceive of it when we are shattered by the force of potent entheogens, near death experiences or the saturating effect of continued practice of sadhana in action?
It's certainly a magnificent idea to contemplate. Paradoxically, we cannot be both, observing the Godhead and awakening to being the Godhead. I believe we each are challenged to find Nirvana in our own unique way. I'd like to celebrate the quest for such a vibration of being and I would speculate that when we reach the exalted level, we will recall it was our very being, all along the way. The only fundamental difference is KNOWING that we are One. Such a knowledge is the spark of the Divine and the mirror of every heart and soul.
Who are we? Who am I? Who are you? Which only leads us back to the same point... that being the nature of self. We are surely born into a scenario, whereby we press against the barrier to understanding and potentially, bridge the territory of our personal mirages, with the blinding immensity of the universal consciousness.
Global said:
Only 4 or 5 times-doses used were 47mg neat FB, and on a couple of occasions with changa (x11 leaf, with DMT in a 1: 1 ratio) doses being 48-just over 50mgs of DMT.Its the single inhalation that allows this level to be reached.These are doses which I wouldnt wholeheartedly recommend to most users.
Nice one Rising Spirit.
Words can not contain the truth, but that doesn't mean we can't try... eh?
Words can not contain the truth, but that doesn't mean we can't try... eh?
Hyperspace Fool said:
As Alan Watts suggested decades ago, even when we TRY NOT TO TRY to grasp the ungraspable essence... to figure out how our subjectivity interphases with all of these lofty states of consciousness or the grand mysteries of the universe, we are caught in a paradigm of our own creation.
How does one intentionally become spontaneous? It can't be done. It's kinda like watching yourself, watch yourself. This spins out a web of mirrored impressions. A maze of self-reflections and myriad echoes of our mental programming, looping on and on and on...
Just WHO is looking through the eyes of the all living beings, perhaps we could speculate that is it indeed The Omniself? If the self is not the body, mind or personality of an individual, what then is self? A state of awareness, by which a fulcrum of inverted consciousness cognizes "reality" to make it comprehensible? Merely a central axiom of data processing... or is there something of cosmic intelligence working behind the scene? I have come to believe, through direct experience, that this is so.
Who is watching the dynamics of the play of existence? Also, is the inner pilot observing existence through it's awareness the same self in all bodies or are they myriad reflections of self, throughout this great multiverse? :shock:
It certainly appears from my vantage point, that for the subjectivity of the seeker, true self is something beyond ego or the limitations of an isolated perspective and yet... immanent within all of creation. So damn close it is inside of everything else.
This is why the Zen masters attempt to hog-tie the reasoning capacity of mind, so as to facilitate clarity of vision and awareness WITHOUT thought. For is it not within such emptiness that we eclipse with the euphoria which Nirvana is so characterized by? Awareness without conceptualization is a most ecstatic level of consciousness to be immersed within. 8)
If we utilize our will power, as a device of our egos, it remains locked into the same game of circular logic. Only when we silence our thinking mind and merge into the emptiness of the "Spiritual" realms of mind, do we taste such an expansive field of intelligence. The resulting knowledge is one which interconnects to every other aspect of self, as existent within each part of the totality of organic being.