Acid vs. Non-Acid Brew Experiment: Comparison of Alkaloids Remaining in THP Brewed Caapi

[SnozzleBerry]

I love synchronicity :d The recent discussion of whether Ayahuasca brews should be acidified or not started about one day after I had made my very first non-acidified brew. As resident Aya experts Ms. Minxx and Acolon both expressed the sentiment that acid brews are more potent than non-acid brews, I became very paranoid that I had left a significant amount of alkaloids in the bark that I had just brewed. Luckily I had not thrown out the bark and thus I drafted up a quick experiment to test the efficiency of acid and non-acid brewing, using The Herbal Percolator. Unfortunately, due to the manner in which I realized I was going to do this experiment, I do not have pictures of every little step (but I do have them of the "important" ones) and the brews were not done side by side. However, as I brew my Ayahuasca the same way every time and recorded the steps I had taken between my brewing and Cosmic Lion's Caapi Extraction, I'm fairly confident that this experiment is a fairly good indicator of the difference in efficiency between using acid or not. The experiment was carried out as follows:

The Non-Acid Brew
1. 50 grams of B. Caapi (Ourinhos) were placed in THP and 10L (200ml/g) of non-acidified, boiling tap water was run through it (my tap water has a pH of 6.1)

2. The brew was reduced by steaming over the course of a day and set to the side. At this point I noticed that this brew was darker than any Caapi brew I had made before, even when I had caramelized the brew by boiling too hard.

3. The 50 grams of previously brewed bark was extracted according to the protocols of Cosmic Lion's Caapi Extraction, with the amounts scaled down by 1/5 (I was dealing with 50g Caapi instead of 250g) Here is the dark brew next to the freebase harmalas in solution, Brew is on the left, Harmalas on the right:

and here's the freebase harmalas in solution:

4. The resulting impure harmalas weighed in at 616mg. This extract was a light tan and of uniform consistency/color, similar to the result from multiple Manskes.

The Acid Brew
1. 50 grams of B. Caapi (Ourinhos) were placed in THP and 10L (200ml/g) of boiling tap water (acidified with 1 Tbsp/15ml of 5% vinegar per Liter of water) was run through it. Here's my THP in action:

2. The brew was reduced by steaming over the course of a day and set to the side. The color of this brew was the brilliant gold I have grown familiar to seeing from my Ourinhos brews. Steaming the brew, as you can see, no bubbles whatsoever:

3. The 50 grams of previously brewed bark was extracted according to the protocols of Cosmic Lion's Caapi Extraction, with the amounts scaled down by 1/5 (I was dealing with 50g Caapi instead of 250g). Here's my large scale THP for running more water through at a given time:

Here's the Harmalas in solution, next to the brew with the flash (as in previous pics), Brew is on the left, Harmalas on the right:

and without the flash so that you can see how much less there is:

4. The resulting impure harmalas weighed in at 301mg. This extract was dark and sparkled like a first Manske.

Here are the two vials of Harmalas. As the extract from the non-acidified brew is lighter, I assume it is a cleaner extract, but I have no analytical equipment with which to verify this. Assuming that the lighter alkaloids are cleaner, this would mean that the difference in total alkaloids between the two extracts is actually greater than the 315mg of weight difference suggests.

Conclusion: Acidified water is more efficient than non-acidified water for brewing Ayahuasca using THP. The extraction run on the bark from the non-acidified brew yielded 104.651% more alkaloids of (what I believe to be) higher quality than the acidified brew. This means that the bark from the acidified brew was more thoroughly exhausted than the bark from the non-acidified brew, following the initial brewing.

NOTES: The non-acidified brew was significantly darker than the acidified brew. However, once the already-brewed Caapi was subjected to acidified THP extractions for CL's tek, the initially non-acidified brew was a much deeper yellow-gold than the initially-acidified brew. I can't for the life of me figure out what this is as a result of. Could the acid prevent some darker tannins from being pulled? Does it maybe turn a darker tannin lighter by acidifying? Also, the harmalas yielded from the acidified brew were darker than those extracted from the non-acidified brewed bark. To my mind this means that CL's tek was "scraping the bottom of the barrel" so to speak, and pulled more impurities, as there were less alkaloids to be pulled from that bark compared to the bark that had not been brewed in acidified water.


Heres the non-acidified and acidified brews. Non-acidified on the left, Acidified on the right

 

[prottel]

Nice experiment.

NOTES: The non-acidified brew was significantly darker than the acidified brew. However, once the already-brewed Caapi was subjected to acidified THP extractions for CL's tek, the initially non-acidified brew was a much deeper yellow-gold than the initially-acidified brew. I can't for the life of me figure out what this is as a result of. Could the acid prevent some darker tannins from being pulled? Does it maybe turn a darker tannin lighter by acidifying?

There is a darkening of both mimosa and caapi when the ph gets over a certain point. Not sure what that point is for caapi. There must be some element that changes colour depending on ph value.

What was the ph of the non acidified water that you used? That could be a factor. And what ph did the non acidified extracted brew have? Regular water can get up to a ph of 8, which would make it pretty bad at extracting actives, especially THH. Another thing would be the natural ph of the caapi itself.

1. 50 grams of B. Caapi (Ourinhos) were placed in THP and 10L (200ml/g) of boiling tap water (acidified with 1 Tbsp/15ml of 5% vinegar) was run through it.

When I dissolve freebase harmine, I need ~0.7ml 5% vinegar to dissolve 100mg harmine. To get 600mg harmine, you would need 4.2 ml of 5% vinegar. You used 15ml in total. Perhaps with a higher concentration of vinegar, the extraction would go faster? I have noticed when I pour 1 ml 35% vinegar directly onto 1 gram of harmine, it does dissolve considerably faster, compared to adding the same amount to 50ml water.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Nice experiment.

NOTES: The non-acidified brew was significantly darker than the acidified brew. However, once the already-brewed Caapi was subjected to acidified THP extractions for CL's tek, the initially non-acidified brew was a much deeper yellow-gold than the initially-acidified brew. I can't for the life of me figure out what this is as a result of. Could the acid prevent some darker tannins from being pulled? Does it maybe turn a darker tannin lighter by acidifying?

There is a darkening of both mimosa and caapi when the ph gets over a certain point. Not sure what that point is for caapi. There must be some element that changes colour depending on ph value.

What was the ph of the non acidified water that you used? That could be a factor. And what ph did the non acidified extracted brew have? Regular water can get up to a ph of 8, which would make it pretty bad at extracting actives, especially THH. Another thing would be the natural ph of the caapi itself.

Thanks Dagger

1. 50 grams of B. Caapi (Ourinhos) were placed in THP and 10L (200ml/g) of non-acidified, boiling tap water was run through it (my tap water has a pH of 6.1)

I didn't check the final pH of the brew, but as I have some left, I can do that tonight.

1. 50 grams of B. Caapi (Ourinhos) were placed in THP and 10L (200ml/g) of boiling tap water (acidified with 1 Tbsp/15ml of 5% vinegar) was run through it.

When I dissolve freebase harmine, I need ~0.7ml 5% vinegar to dissolve 100mg harmine. To get 600mg harmine, you would need 4.2 ml of 5% vinegar. You used 15ml in total. Perhaps with a higher concentration of vinegar, the extraction would go faster? I have noticed when I pour 1 ml 35% vinegar directly onto 1 gram of harmine, it does dissolve considerably faster, compared to adding the same amount to 50ml water.

Ahhh, a typo, I meant to say that I used 15ml/Liter of water. I will edit that now, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

Snozz,

Amazing!! Thank you so much for your dedicated work! :shock: :d

 

[Rivea]

Great work Snooz. It is amazing what a little bit of acidity does to the increase the potency of Ayahuasca. This will save a lot of people the trouble of figuring this out for themselves including me. Thanks.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Thanks guys, I'm feelin the love :d

Pictures of the final acid-brew CL tek yield and side by side harmala extracts have been posted along with the rest of my notes/observations. I forgot to measure the pH of the non-acid brewed Caapi, but I'll do that tonight. Does anyone see any merit in doing an extraction on non-brewed bark to get a general alk% or do you think this is sufficient as it stands?

peace
SB

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

Ok here is a question that shows my expierence. What does THP stand for in this threa:?:

 

[ragabr]

The Herbal Percolator

 

[Psilocin Dreams]

thank you sir

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Ahhh, my fault , I meant to put links in for the herbal percolator and CL's tek, I'll go imbed those now

 

[prottel]

Conclusion: Acidified water is more efficient than non-acidified water for brewing Ayahuasca using THP. The extraction run on the bark from the non-acidified brew yielded 204.651% more alkaloids of (what I believe to be) higher quality than the acidified brew. This means that the bark from the acidified brew was more thoroughly exhausted than the bark from the non-acidified brew, following the initial brewing.

This is a bit confusing. First you say the acidified water is more efficient, then the non-acidified brew yielded more. Then then the acidified brew was more thoroughly exhausted? Also it is 104.651% more alkaloids.

What I found interesting in your experiment was the colour difference between your acidified compared to the non-acidified brew. Could it be that vinegar pulls something else out that causes the impurity, or could it be the vinegar itself? I am wondering about this because I have experiemented some with freebasing harmalas. And I have noticed that sometimes in the purification stage the purified product sometimes gets darker on further purification. I don't quite understand how this can happen, and thought that perhaps it could have something to do with the added vinegar.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Conclusion: Acidified water is more efficient than non-acidified water for brewing Ayahuasca using THP. The extraction run on the bark from the non-acidified brew yielded 204.651% more alkaloids of (what I believe to be) higher quality than the acidified brew. This means that the bark from the acidified brew was more thoroughly exhausted than the bark from the non-acidified brew, following the initial brewing.

This is a bit confusing. First you say the acidified water is more efficient, then the non-acidified brew yielded more. Then then the acidified brew was more thoroughly exhausted? Also it is 104.651% more alkaloids.

Ok, I have not said what you think I have What I have said is:

1. Acidified water is more efficient for brewing Ayahuasca. This means on the initial brew, acidified water will pull more alkaloids than non-acidified water. Meaning, bark that has been brewed in acidified water will have less alkaloids remaining in it following the brewing process than bark brewed in non-acidified water.

2. The extraction of non-acid-brewed bark (which occurred following the initial brewing of the Ayahuasca) yielded more alkaloids than the acid-brewed-bark. This means that there were more alkaloids left in the bark that had been brewed in non-acidified water than in the bark that had been brewed in acidified water following the initial brewing (supporting the first statement).

3. The second statement provides the data from which the first statement was formed, as the only alkaloid content that was measured was that which remained in the bark after it had already been brewed. That is, I have concluded that acidified water is more efficient than non-acidified water because there were more alkaloids left in the non-acidified bark than the acidified bark after it had been brewed. Thus the bark from the acidified brew was more thoroughly exhausted by the initial brewing.

I hope that makes it more clear, I know it can get really jumbled with all the repeated references of acidified/non-acidified and brew/extraction. I had to re-read it multiple times as I was typing it up just to make sure I hadn't mixed anything up.

Secondly, as to the percentage, the non-acid-brewed bark yielded 204.651% of the alkaloids in the acid-brewed-bark (not more, just total, I should have excluded the word "more" ). 104.651% of 301mg = 314.99951 mg, 204.651% of 301mg = 615.99951mg (it's below 616 cuz I truncated the %) or yes, I could have said 104.651% more and as that seems to be the more natural way of saying it, I will amend it as such. Thanks Dagger, I appreciate the input 8)

What I found interesting in your experiment was the colour difference between your acidified compared to the non-acidified brew. Could it be that vinegar pulls something else out that causes the impurity, or could it be the vinegar itself? I am wondering about this because I have experiemented some with freebasing harmalas. And I have noticed that sometimes in the purification stage the purified product sometimes gets darker on further purification. I don't quite understand how this can happen, and thought that perhaps it could have something to do with the added vinegar.

Yea, I agree, it's really interesting. Do you think the vinegar has the "impurity" or the non-vinegar? Personally, to me the vinegar looks much cleaner/clearer while the non-vinegar looks more like a caramelized brew (but it wasn't even remotely close to being simmered, let alone hard-boiled). I'm not sure whether it has something to do with preventing some tannins from coming out or if it actually lightens the tannins, but either way it is curious. I have always used vinegar prior to this test and have always found my brews to be that brilliant golden color. I really don't know what to make of it and hope that maybe one of the chemists can weigh in and say what could be going on.

 

[BananaForeskin]

I really love you guys... this thread made my day.

 

[dragon-n]

great work Snozz. you've really contributed an amazing science here!
i had an idea...
you speculated on why the different extracted harmalas were different colors and wondered as to their purity.
it sounds like you are right saying that the darker is a less pure form but:
you don't need analytical equipment to analyze which extract is more pure.
your body is the most advanced contraption in the universe.
why not bioassay equal doses of the two different yields and compare the subjective "purity"?
certainly you could discern the relative strengths of the two.
blessings to you for your diligent care and attention.
i'm sure i speak for everyone here saying that you are very appreciated!!

 

[SnozzleBerry]

great work Snozz. you've really contributed an amazing science here!
i had an idea...
you speculated on why the different extracted harmalas were different colors and wondered as to their purity.
it sounds like you are right saying that the darker is a less pure form but:
you don't need analytical equipment to analyze which extract is more pure.
your body is the most advanced contraption in the universe.
why not bioassay equal doses of the two different yields and compare the subjective "purity"?
certainly you could discern the relative strengths of the two.
blessings to you for your diligent care and attention.
i'm sure i speak for everyone here saying that you are very appreciated!!

Thank you for your kind words, dragon-n :d I hear what you are saying, and as I have both vials just laying around (and have been taking a nice long break from cannabis) I may very well take you up on that suggestion.

The reason that I did not do that/include it with the above experiment/results is, as you yourself said it would be a comparison of the subjective "purity". While that would confirm whether the lighter stuff is more potent, it would not be objective/statistical results in the same vein as what I tried to have the rest of the experiment be. The more I'm thinking about it though, the more I believe I will do this, merely to state which one was a stronger experience. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll let you know how the bioassay goes.

 

[69ron]

This is a nice test. The results are what I expected. My only complaint: the pictures are so large that it's hard to read this thread.

The next test is which acid produces the best results?

A lot of people claim phosphoric acid is the best.

 

[prottel]

It may be that the first non-acidified brewing pulled out most of the impurities, while leaving most actives in the material. So, when you next extracted with CosmicLion method, you attained a more pure product.

This could be a way to purify the extract before doing an extraction. First, you add sodium carbonate, or lye, to boost the ph to 10-11. Then send it through the THP. This should pull out most crap, but leave behind the actives. Then you can continue with acidified water. Giving you a much purer product, with just one precipitation needed.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

KYK Genesis

I've worked extensively with vinegar and played with Vitamin C crystals... now I use this ^^ for acid water (it goes down to about 2.5). It's SO SMOOTH and amazing to brew with. (No, haha... I don't sell them. )

Scientifically... ah... what do you think about using something like this?

Vinegar is supposed to cook off, but something definitely happens during the cooking process that makes the brew taste DIS-GUST-ING and a bit more nauseating.

*Subjectively,* I've experienced no difference in potency between vinegar and digitally-acidified water. pH in both instances has always been below 3. Taste and smell are immeasurably better, with less non-psychic nausea (meaning I will purge if emotional content is processed, but not ten minutes after drinking because everything tasted so intense).

 

[SnozzleBerry]

This is a nice test. The results are what I expected. My only complaint: the pictures are so large that it's hard to read this thread.

The next test is which acid produces the best results?

A lot of people claim phosphoric acid is the best.

Thanks ron, I have shrunk the pictures, hope that's better, I didn't realize photobucket has such an awesome resize tool. If I get my hands on some phosphoric acid I'll do another brew.

KYK Genesis

I've worked extensively with vinegar and played with Vitamin C crystals... now I use this ^^ for acid water (it goes down to about 2.5). It's SO SMOOTH and amazing to brew with. (No, haha... I don't sell them. )

Scientifically... ah... what do you think about using something like this?

Vinegar is supposed to cook off, but something definitely happens during the cooking process that makes the brew taste DIS-GUST-ING and a bit more nauseating.

*Subjectively,* I've experienced no difference in potency between vinegar and digitally-acidified water. pH in both instances has always been below 3. Taste and smell are immeasurably better, with less non-psychic nausea (meaning I will purge if emotional content is processed, but not ten minutes after drinking because everything tasted so intense).

Holy cow Ms. Minxx!!!! The cheapest one I could find on ebay was like $1200. My bankroll is a tad bit short of such an awesome piece of euipment. I completely agree with your take on the vinegar. Even when I have done two day simmers where I added upwards of 10 liters of water to my brew as it was reducing, the flavoring of the acid just would not completely dissipate. While I find I have little trouble stomaching my acid brews, I have learned that my tongue seems to have a predilection for the flavor of psychedelics that most people find horrid (and my gut seems to be similarly ironclad). The acidified and reduced caapi tastes kind of iron-y to me, almost like the blood of the vine or something :twisted:

 

[Rivea]

This is a nice test. The results are what I expected. My only complaint: the pictures are so large that it's hard to read this thread.

The next test is which acid produces the best results?

A lot of people claim phosphoric acid is the best.

Thanks ron, I have shrunk the pictures, hope that's better, I didn't realize photobucket has such an awesome resize tool. If I get my hands on some phosphoric acid I'll do another brew.

I've also read (I can't quote where, but I think on Erowid) that phosphoric acid is the best on the stomach and it is the most stable acid extractor. I too think that vinegar when highly reduced is kind of nasty tasting, and it sure leave one's abode pretty stinky.

KYK Genesis

I've worked extensively with vinegar and played with Vitamin C crystals... now I use this ^^ for acid water (it goes down to about 2.5). It's SO SMOOTH and amazing to brew with. (No, haha... I don't sell them. )

Scientifically... ah... what do you think about using something like this?

Vinegar is supposed to cook off, but something definitely happens during the cooking process that makes the brew taste DIS-GUST-ING and a bit more nauseating.

*Subjectively,* I've experienced no difference in potency between vinegar and digitally-acidified water. pH in both instances has always been below 3. Taste and smell are immeasurably better, with less non-psychic nausea (meaning I will purge if emotional content is processed, but not ten minutes after drinking because everything tasted so intense).

Holy cow Ms. Minxx!!!! The cheapest one I could find on ebay was like $1200. My bankroll is a tad bit short of such an awesome piece of euipment. I completely agree with your take on the vinegar. Even when I have done two day simmers where I added upwards of 10 liters of water to my brew as it was reducing, the flavoring of the acid just would not completely dissipate. While I find I have little trouble stomaching my acid brews, I have learned that my tongue seems to have a predilection for the flavor of psychedelics that most people find horrid (and my gut seems to be similarly ironclad). The acidified and reduced caapi tastes kind of iron-y to me, almost like the blood of the vine or something :twisted:

The water ionizer appears to be so very expensive because of its platinum / titanium electrodes. I have designed and built a high quality controller for making colloidal silver solutions for medicinal purposes (and perhaps of other interesting uses you've suggested in other threads/conversations).

My current design provides a constant current source operating at a 30 volt DC maximum. I currently use two electrodes made from 10 gauge .9999 fine silver wire, and I set the current to 1 milliamp. Very little visible particulate mater sluffs off of the electrodes at this current density. In addition the controller senses the voltage between the electrodes and shuts of the current once the voltage across the cell reaches the desired level. I can generate reliably crystal clear ionic silver solutions with concentrations of up to about 20 ppm Ag 1.1 liters at a time overnight.

Perhaps if I can determine an affordable source of electrodes and a cell structure using small and hopefully more affordable platinum/titanium electrodes I could adapt my current circuit to do this type of ionization on 1-2 liter quantities of water. It seems like a much nicer way to acidify water for ayahuasca that using vinegar if it does not cost so damn much money.

MS_MINX... You must have a nicely stocked lab or have bought this for more than ayahuasca....