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Anahuasca side effects ruining trip

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voyajer

Rising Star
Hi all,

I'm very experienced with many psychedelics and recently started using syrian rue and acacia confusa. I've done it a couple times so far, once with just powdered rue and acacia then to try and mitigate the side effects I felt, I made rue tea and acacia tea (strained and egg white, though I could have strained more) and dosed lower. Both times the nausea was extremely overpowering and painful for the entire time. I was so nauseous I couldn't move. Even though the room was warm I was extremely cold and shivering. Which wouldn't have been a big deal if I could move, but I couldn't even reach to pull the blankets up. My muscles ached terribly all night and my heart raced until the trip ends. The physical pain is so great there is no chance to glean anything positive from it. Euphoria was almost totally absent. The next day i feel hungover,my muscles still ache and my stomach is uneasy.

I was careful with my diet and even took ginger pills and 2-4 datura seeds bit it didn't help at all.I'm not opposed to putting up with a little pain for the positive effects, but this is tortuous. I recently was using high dose hbrw and though the first hour and a half was unbearably painful, at least it went away and was replaced by a rushing euphoria.

I'm willing to try to further extract the rue and try to make a better brew but would that help the muscle pain and other side effects too?

Are there any other tips for dealing with this?
 
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I am sorry you had to feel that discomfort :( Sometimes the easy route (just boiling and drinking) isn't always the most healthy or efficient in another sense.

It really is very easy to extract harmalas, all you need is acid, a base, salt and water. Oh and a sieve or a t-shirt.

You will notice a significant decrease in both your pains and nausea.

Freebase usually adds a little more nausea because it has a high ph and the stomach is acidic... so if you can try and precipitate harmala-hcl which should end up a dark yellowish color.

You can also buy tablets from the pharmacy for nausea that help greatly, especially for mushrooms and aya ;)
 
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Forget ingesting powder, think well filtered tea, or extracts.
Oat porridge with honey lessens my body load incredibly.
Dose no more than necessary, it's all load in the end.

The cold and shivering is definitely result of the harmalas so normally that is independent of whatever bark you use. After many times of use these effects get lower to nearly absent or at least no issue, I still have my blanket but it is far from the shivers I had in the beginning.

Physical pain in muscles is uncommon, but this could as well be your very specific way of going trough an experience, your way of relating to the "medicine", in the beginning these things are prone to enroll on their own. If you don't suffer from a pathology that causes these muscle pains, my bet is on that. I remember having torn/squeezed sensations that was like pure suffering, and only after sufficient experiences these faded largely.

It'll never be a comfy ride in the come up, but giving yourselves sufficient adaptation cycles should make it a recognizable pattern not to be worrying over. Then it's only a phase of which you know it will swap for the more deeper works.

When it happens that I feel a difficult come up, what I tell myself is: dude you are not gliding into the other 'dimension', you are stalling it, you are hanging between 2 realms and that is very tearing on you, go for it, enter, step in, glide in, make the switch, do not keep 'here', and lo and behold as the transition happens, the discomforts go away very fast.
The fact that I had tearing experiences in the beginning, I tend to attribute these to not fully knowing where to "go" and by such loitering in half between states which is not a good place to remain. This theory is supported by the experiences where the transition is very swift and usually have no annoying phase to speak of as a result.

Maybe your case is different, just telling mine.
Bless you 😉
 
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Try with rue extract rather than rue brew.
The stuff I use was run through 5x manske steps & works well at 200-250mg dissolved in water or juice. Less nausea that rue brew by far.

For rootbark brew I usually brew 50g at one time & reduce to 500ml, that way any sediment that is removed should not have much if any actives in it. Freeze & decant clear tea from muck. Egg white seemed to take some potency with it.

Those two tips have taken brews for me from painful nausea & purging many times during the experience to bearable nausea & only a single purge & sometimes a second while the peak is in effect.

Also combined with the oat porridge trick jees mentioned it seems to even further reduce nausea. It seems to still be present & I have not tried it yet myself but a friend tried last week & reported good results.

Making brews & learning what works best for your own body is a journey in its own right.
It can take some trial & error as well as many nights spent feeling very ill to nail down a good personal recipe & ritual but it is very well worth it when you get it right.
 
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The way i've gotten over the Harmala-related side-effects is by building up it's reverse tolerance. I simply take good dosages of Rue regularly until the nausea, vomiting, and body load goes away. The more you take the Harmalas, the stronger they get, thus allowing you to back the dosage down as you go along, and if you take it for like a week or two, the side-effects will go away as the reverse tolerance builds up. I also took 6 drops of Lemon EO to counteract nausea/vomiting/body load in the first week of taking the Harmalas, then once i was confident the reverse tolerance was built up a good bit, i stopped taking the Lemon EO and continued taking the Rue. Been taking pretty strong dosages of the Rue multiple times a week for months now, no side-effects at all that i've noticed. But that's just for the Rue/Harmalas, when it comes to Mimosa or Acacia teas, either do an egg-white cleanse to remove tannins, or make a Mimosa or Acacia residue and encapsulate it.
 
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I really appreciate all the feedback, it's given me hope that I can improve on this. This last trip I made rue tea and evaporated in to a powder and boiled the acacia down to a shot but there was still some residue. I strained the remainder of the tea and mixed the grounds with more water and strained again before reducing again. Ill probably either decant the liquid from what settles later or evaporate it to a powder. Hopefully that'll be better, but I'll take the advice to a try and extract the harmalas. Building up a tolerance for rue might be worth trying too though if I'm honest I fear going through the discomfort again.
 
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With harmala tea, it is really easy to dissolve table salt into the tea while it is still hot. Use between 100 and 200 grams per liter of tea. Then wait for the tea too cool and for harmala HCl crystals (tiny needles) to form. Once the liquid has cooled down, stir it one more time to unlodge any crystals from the jar's (or pan's) walls. When the all the crystals have sunk to the bottom, decant the supernatant liquid.

Now you could pour the bottom layer through a coffee filter as is and dry it, but it would be quite simple to add fresh hot water to the bottom layer with the crystals and repeat the dissolution of fresh salt into the hot solution, in order to obtain an even more pure batch of harmala HCl crystals.

If you perform an extraction of the acacia confusa (or mimosa hostilis) rootbark and obtain reasonably pure dmt crystals (doesn't need to be ultra-pure), you can try pharmahuasca. Perhaps that will help you to manage the physical discomfort. Even with pharmahuasca, it may still take some experimenting with doses and ratios before you find a sweet spot.
 
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pitubo said:
With harmala tea, it is really easy to dissolve table salt into the tea while it is still hot. Use between 100 and 200 grams per liter of tea. Then wait for the tea too cool and for harmala HCl crystals (tiny needles) to form. Once the liquid has cooled down, stir it one more time to unlodge any crystals from the jar's (or pan's) walls. When the all the crystals have sunk to the bottom, decant the supernatant liquid.

Now you could pour the bottom layer through a coffee filter as is and dry it, but it would be quite simple to add fresh hot water to the bottom layer with the crystals and repeat the dissolution of fresh salt into the hot solution, in order to obtain an even more pure batch of harmala HCl crystals.

If you perform an extraction of the acacia confusa (or mimosa hostilis) rootbark and obtain reasonably pure dmt crystals (doesn't need to be ultra-pure), you can try pharmahuasca. Perhaps that will help you to manage the physical discomfort. Even with pharmahuasca, it may still take some experimenting with doses and ratios before you find a sweet spot.
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That's really cool, I've never come across that before. Presumably the Cl- ion preferentially interacts with the alkaloid as the solution cools rather than recombining with the Na+?

Does this work for other alkaloids?

Blessings
~ND
 
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downwardsfromzero said:
Intezam said:
2-4 datura seeds? Why?[...]
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Supreme (or, it seems, not!) antinauseant.
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Datura is supposed to be a very effective anti nauseant (though it didn't work for me ). I haven't used HBWR for 2 or 3 months. I never mixed them, though I do feel like they may have made me more sensitive to nausea.
 
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Will vouch for datura seeds, works like a charm, so long as you don't overdo it and end up in Hell. One of the actives (scopolomine) is a highly effective anti-emetic and used in seasickness patches.

Blessings
~ND
 
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Nathanial.Dread said:
That's really cool, I've never come across that before. Presumably the Cl- ion preferentially interacts with the alkaloid as the solution cools rather than recombining with the Na+?
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This is part of the standard extraction tek for syrian rue actually. It should work with caapi extractions too, but in the case of rue it is especially useful as a means to selectively precipitate the harmala alkaloids and not the other quinazoline alkaloids also present in rue.

The mechanism upon which it is based is called "the common ion effect". The abundance of Cl- ions moves the equilibrium set by the solubility product Ks = [Cl-]*[harm(al)inium+] toward less harmala ions in solutions and these precipitate out.

Nathanial.Dread said:
Does this work for other alkaloids?
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Sometimes. Apparently, it doesn't work so well with vasicine. I have seen it claimed on this forum that it works with clean solutions of mescaline.
 
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BTW, I would not advise people to self-administer datura seeds. The alkaloid content in these seeds can vary and the effect of overdosing with these is not pretty.

If you can get your docter to prescribe you scopolamine tablets for travel sickness, then that might be a more reliable avenue. Stick to the dose recommended on the package.
 
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How high is your rue dosage?

You got to be careful with your because you can actually overdose on it. It is just as possible to overdose on caapi too, but people never go this high with it.

Fact is, once harmalas reach full mao inhibition everything else goes to your gut and causing a more severe body load. It can also produce psychoactive effects on it's own due to the neurotransmitters free flowing resembling a state that is quite similar pharmacologicaly to psychosis. No need to do this.

Bottom line, there really is no need to use more than necessary.

Acacia on it's own shouldn't cause any significant body load. There are tannins in there which contribute to the body load, but filtering it out good even without the egg white tek should be just fine and not too hard on your liver.

Remember, less is more. Try a lower harmala dose and you should be fine. A lower dose and a more efficient brewing technique does wonders. Properly brewed ayahuasca and anahuasca should feel wonderful with just a slight hint of nausea otherwise as you said it can distract from the experience. It can be just as potent without the body load, it is possible indeed just watch out for certain things.

It gets easier with experience. It might be the body adapting to it over time or even a combination of that and a better brewing technique. Don't give up just yet.
 
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The first time I ate 3.3 grams of rue, the second time I made a tea from 8g with whole seeds (I was assuming for two doses and assumed some loss of actives) then dried it to a powder and took a bit less than half. So I'm guessing around 3g worth. Next time I'll try using less to see if it helps. What would you say is an ok dose? I hear most people use 3-3.5 grams
 
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voyajer said:
... What would you say is an ok dose? I hear most people use 3-3.5 grams
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About right I'd say. There's always that difference in how much people succeed in getting alkaloid out of that weight. If working with whole seeds, squeezing them empty (in a cheese cloth or handkerchief) when they are swollen thick with liquid, perhaps a few times, helps in getting it all out. But if you got those severe shivers that's a good sign of having enough actives :thumb_up:
 
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BTW voyajer, I suggest posting these queries under Ayahuasca threads once you've been "promoted".

I for one can't get enough info about current year approaches to preparation and comfortable experiences with, ayahuasca, anahuasca, pharmahuasca, psilohuasca...etc, along this relatively "primitive" extraction approach to concourse with the blessed "light"!

Should you continue to experiment, please share. Also, I would add that regular habituation to the ingestion of harmala teas, cappi/rue, definitively decreases the experience of negative side effects. Again, I would note, that for those fond of the "light" v the "force", extracted harmalas, easily had, work VERY well facilitating the enteral(ingested) DMT journey.

Peace
 
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