Are there any of you who feel that there is no such thing as endogenous DMT?

[entheogenic-gnosis]

nope.

I've felt mystical experiences, near death experiences, and a near-fatal experience...on phencyclidine.
and relating to religious dogma was never a part of my experiences, tryptamine-related or otherwise.

Who said anything about religious dogma? I was talking about the nature of consciousness.

My view is that the conscious-being and the physical body are in fact two separate entities, and if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues.

I dislike the term after life, because it's nothing like life, it's actually the antithesis of life...which is by definition what death is supposed to be, the opposite of life... death is like the DMT flash, there is no time, no physics, you have left three dimensional Newtonian time and space, you have no physical form (though most the time I feel like I have arms and at times my residual physical form breaks through) you also have no ego, it's like becoming a blank slate, everything you knew in your past physical incarnation becomes like a dream after waking, you think "I vaguely remember what my body looked like, and my name, and earth, and friends and family, but that's all gone now" it's obvious that you are "light years" away from all those things, they are no longer the central focus of your conscious-being, they are more like distant memories...you are still fully conscious but you are also fully disconnected from everything related to the dimension in which earth and your physical form existed, you are in non-physical.space, there's no time, and no matter, it's an entirely novel plane compared to.the one you departed from. Everything about the DMT flash seems analogous to what one experiences at death.

What may seem "religious" to you may actually be intrinsic to the nature of conscious being.

I doubt you read in detail all that non-sense that I posted, but if you ever have some free time look it over, don't think of it as reading a spiritual work about Buddhism or shamanism, look at it as describing consciousness, and try to relate what is bring said to your entheogemic experiences


I'll Again leave with some quotes from the most "dogmatic religious fanatic" around, Mr. Terence McKenna

When consciousness is finally understood, it will mean that the absence of consciousness will be understood. The study of consciousness leads, inevitably, to the study of death. Death is both a historical and an individual phenomenon about which we, as monkeys, have great anxiety. But what the psychedelic experience seems to be pointing out is that actually the reductionist view of death has missed the point and that there is something more. Death isn't simple extinction. The universe does not build up such complex forms as ourselves without conserving them in some astonishing and surprising way that relates to the intuitions that we have from the psychedelic experience." Terence McKenna

"If one leaves aside the last three hundred years of historical experience as it unfolded in Europe and America, and examines the phenomenon of death and the doctrine of the soul in all its ramifications - Neoplatonic, Christian, dynastic-Egyptian, and so on, one finds repeatedly the idea that there is a light body, an entelechy that is somehow mixed up with the body during life and at death is involved in a crisis in which these two portions separate. One part loses its raison d'etre and falls into dissolution; metabolism stops. The other part goes we know not where. Perhaps nowhere if one believes it does not exist; but then one has the problem of trying to explain life. And, though science makes great claims and has done well at explaining simple atomic systems, the idea that science can make any statement about what life is or where it comes from is currently preposterous." Terence McKenna

-eg

TM was an interesting man, and quite bonkers. A lot of his musings were highly intuitive. That being said, I wouldn't take all his musings as scripture. bardos and chakras aside, dmt is but one of many possible compounds which elicit what leary dubbed as the 8th circuit of consciousness (synonymous with Plato's 8th virtue? perhaps.)

DMT is not an exclusive "near death" model, there are several other experiences that fit the description.
dream memories? c'mon. you know that is acetylcholine. interesting to note, ibogaine also acts on acetylcholine.

What is a dream memory?

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I've always been ambivalent about the endogenous DMT theory. I'm probably in the minority here thinking this way, but I honestly don't believe it would have a huge amount of consequence either way. If it is true, then we can unify lot of different consciousness-related phenomena under a single chemical stimulus. But if not, it's still possible that these states are unified in some way.

On this latter view, it is the intrinsic nature of the brain-mind system that's poised in such a way to have dynamic access to a variety of states, and similar states can be brought about by diverse circumstances. In other words, you could say that there are many different keys for opening the same lock. This would be best explained under a systems theoretical model of the brain. So, it's entirely possible that a certain meditative technique (say) can induce a brain state that bears certain similarities to one induced through the use of a certain psychedelic. A lot of theoretical work on how psychedelics act have to do with the idea that certain structures or functional operations of the brain and/or psyche work to gate unconscious information out of awareness. There happens to be similar ideas at work in theorizing about psychosis, mystical states, creativity, etc. All of these phenomena have been conceptualized in relation to the concepts of "transliminality", "latent disinhibition", "boundary thinness" - the idea that the boundaries separating the conscious mind from subconscious mind can become permeable, to varying degrees, under different circumstances. These various states don't produce something out of scratch; rather, they amplify psychological (or perhaps spiritual) contents that are already "there", behind the margins of ordinary awareness. So - although they do so via different pathways - meditation, dreaming, etc, might engender similar experiences by eroding the boundaries to the subconscious.

And indeed there is evidence that psychedelics and meditation are similar in that they both decrease activity in an area of the brain called the default mode network. Certain attentional and cognitive processes during meditation are thought to be responsible for these changes - thus, no appeal to endogenous DMT is necessary to explain the similarity (Acosta Urquidi 2015).

I also think that some of the states which are thought to be closely related to DMT experiences are actually much more different than similar. This includes, for example, near-death experiences, psychosis, and even perhaps alien abduction experiences. There are indeed certain general phenomenological similarities between these states, but the differences are vast. The notion that psychedelics can be a model for schizophrenia is pretty much defunct, having been falsified by several lines of evidence. So, I think we should be very careful in reducing a highly complex variety of experiential phenomena to one molecule's stimulus.

Regarding the endogenous DMT hypothesis: there's evidence for and against it. Obviously, the strongest support comes from the recent study that found DMT to be present in the pineal gland of rats. However, other data don't fit. For instance, numerous studies have searched for difference in the levels of DMT metabolites in the bodily fluids of schizophrenic patients as compared to control subjects - no differences were detected, so there was nothing suggesting psychiatric patients had more DMT in their system (Wyatt, Mandel, Ahn, Walker, & VandenHeuvel 1973, Oon, Murray, Brockington, Rodnight, & Birley 1975, Murray & Oon 1976, Corbett, Christian, Morin, Benington, & Smythies 1978 ) . Another study examined DMT metabolite levels throughout the day and night to see if levels peaked at any time - while levels fluctuated, there was no significant peak in DMT metabolite levels at night, contradicting the hypothesis that increased DMT production is responsible for dreams (Oon, Murray, Rodnight, Murphy, & Birley 1977).

Bottom line is I'm open to both hypotheses - but I'll have to wait for more evidence (i.e., in humans) to come in on the endogenous DMT theory.

I GAVE you the evidence!

DMT has been found in human urine, blood, and cerebrospinal fluid (9, 13). Although there are no conclusive quantitative studies measuring the abundance of endogenous DMT because of its rapid metabolism (14), DMT concentrations can be localized and elevated in certain instances The Hallucinogen N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) Is an Endogenous Sigma-1 Receptor Regulator

SITARAM BR; MCLEOD WR
Observations on the metabolism of the psychotomimetic indolealkylamines: implications for future clinical studies.
Biol Psychiatry. 1990 Nov 15; 28(10): 841-8
Although the psychotomimetic indolealkylamines N,N-dimethyltryptamine, 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, and 5-hydroxy-N,N- dimethyltryptamine have been unequivocally identified in human body fluids, evidence relating their concentration to the presence of psychotic illness in humans remains controversial. A series of studies on the metabolism of the compounds in the rat have highlighted the rapidity and with which these are metabolized and renally excreted. The implications of our observation for the interpretation of past clinical studies and the design of future ones is discussed
Observations on the metabolism of the psychotomimetic indolealkylamines: implications for future clinical studies - PubMed

DMT is found in the blood and urine of humans, this is a fact, it is being produced from tryptophan in the human body through the pathway I out lined, this is a fact.

Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine - PubMed

The presence of the potent hallucinogenic psychoactive chemical N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in the human body has puzzled scientists for decades. Endogenous DMT was investigated in the 1960s and 1970s and it was proposed that DMT was involved in psychosis and schizophrenia. This hypothesis...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

My view is that...are in fact...

I hate both these in one sentence

...if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues.

Not obvious to me, not in the slightest degree, and I mean that, even if we are constituted from separate "entities" as you call it, even if I am willing to go along with that idea, in no way I find it obvious that they have separate "lives" that enables one to die and the other to continue. Only some scripts that tell otherwise like Buddhism and alike tells differently, and maybe it is so, but I do not find it obvious.

To me, consciousness could die exactly together with the body, I don't claim it is so, but the possibility I can't rid of by any obviousness.

If I take into account my own experiences of time-relativity when undergoing experiments with the consciousness, like plant ceremony, I call out on the possibility that consciousness/awareness could easily end up in a time stretched eternity right before body-death. This could, if so, emulate consciousness survival but all happening within the last second of body life. In this case, body and consciousness are enabled to die together, while on the consciousness part there is still experiencing eternal awareness, in whatever form, in a non eternal format.

Just checking out the options here, nothing quotes from other sources, just my own take on it. I'm not telling it is so, but as it dawned on me and sharing.

All the notions I've posted are my own and were formed independently, it was in the desire to find something which could help me explain and understand what happened to me which drew me to the bardo thodol, and terence McKenna, when I found these sources I thought "it's not just me, others have reached these same conclusions!"

The "in fact" was meant to mean "in contrary to held notions", rather than "this statement is factual"

This is an example of how misunderstanding occurs, when I said "entities" I did not mean "beings", I meant your physical body is one thing, and that the consciousness which controls it is a separate thing. They are separate entities, not separate "entities" meaning "beings".

This shows how often people can be rejecting your notions simply because their "internal dictionary" has different definitions for words than your own...or when a person doesn't understand you They fill in the blanks with their assumptions.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Who said anything about religious dogma? I was talking about the nature of consciousness.

My view is that the conscious-being and the physical body are in fact two separate entities, and if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues.

This sort of reasoning should perhaps be best done somewhere in the "Spirituality" subforum.

And the reasoning that consciousness is a product of the physical body doesn't?

Where is your evidence that the physical body is generating consciousness? Where in the physical body is consciousness generated? And how?, by what means?

Your notions are just as "unscientific" as my own, you are making conclusions without empirical evidence.

...though, yes, this quickly turned into a spiritual conversation, and half of this thread probably belongs in that section, though the half providing evidence for endogenous DMT is right on point.

-eg

 

[Psybin]

Who said anything about religious dogma? I was talking about the nature of consciousness.

My view is that the conscious-being and the physical body are in fact two separate entities, and if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues.

This sort of reasoning should perhaps be best done somewhere in the "Spirituality" subforum.

And the reasoning that consciousness is a product of the physical body doesn't?

Where is your evidence that the physical body is generating consciousness? Where in the physical body is consciousness generated? And how?, by what means?

Your notions are just as "unscientific" as my own, you are making conclusions without empirical evidence.

...though, yes, this quickly turned into a spiritual conversation, and half of this thread probably belongs in that section, though the half providing evidence for endogenous DMT is right on point.

-eg

Woah, buddy - calm down. You're speaking from emotion, and that doesn't convince anyone of anything. You were claiming that your view of metaphysics/spirituality are absolute fact, which is not a scientific statement. Additionally, you're assertion of your own spiritual beliefs in your earlier posts leading up to this one is not only unnecessary but distracting from the actual topic. You seem very excited and enthused by your experiences with DMT, as we all are here; please don't forget that just because everyone here isn't posting 12 articles about synaptic signal transduction every 3 hours doesn't mean that we don't have equal (or greater) qualifications in related scientific fields. You've posted before stating that you are still working towards your degree, so maybe you should take a step back and let the people who already have them share what they know as well, without becoming hostile if their ideas or reasoning differs from yours.

 

[Jees]

...This is an example of how misunderstanding occurs, ...This shows how often people can be rejecting your notions simply because their "internal dictionary" has different definitions for words than your own...or when a person doesn't understand you They fill in the blanks...

The pitfalls of the spoken/written language. I agree this we must take into account.
Though our fundamental difference was not solely language related while there was a potential language glitch present nonetheless. I won't dig it out further here and now as it's too far off topic.

 

[pitubo]

And the reasoning that consciousness is a product of the physical body doesn't?

Where is your evidence that the physical body is generating consciousness? Where in the physical body is consciousness generated? And how?, by what means?

Your notions are just as "unscientific" as my own, you are making conclusions without empirical evidence.

Ughhh! Hold your horses, entheogenic-gnosis. I never said any of that, will you please accurately re-read my words? All I said was:

This sort of reasoning should perhaps be best done somewhere in the "Spirituality" subforum.

I just wanted to point out that you are making unsubstantiatable claims of faith. If you want to make suggestions of factuality about your beliefs in any other place than the Spirituality forum, you are inviting heated debates that will degenerate into nothing but endless flaming.

EDIT: And even in the Spirituality forum you may be countered on bogus claims of fact. What I meant to say is that if you want to make statements of faith with no factual basis, then you are welcome to do that in the Spirituality forum.

You were not saying these things as part of the scheduled "Terence & Sasha" entertainment revue, you were saying this as a rebuttal to benzyme. So you were arguing on the basis of faith. Moreover further down the thread, your responses to people who do not share your viewpoint become increasingly emotional. You quote whole posts indiscriminately, only to add augmented oneliners expressing indignation. I believe that your better self agrees with me that you can make a better argument than that.

Sometimes no argument is a better argument. Some things are essentially impossible to argue about. We can freely speculate, but we cannot make any claims, nor inferences.

Unlike you seem to think of me, I am actually agnostic about the "place" of consciousness. I do not know. The fact that I do not entirely agree with your statements of position do not make me part of your opposition.

...though, yes, this quickly turned into a spiritual conversation, and half of this thread probably belongs in that section, though the half providing evidence for endogenous DMT is right on point.

We know from reported evidence that there is endogenous dmt in the body. But we do not know what this presence entails or implies. We can hardly make any meaningful inference from it.

These sort of problems arise every time someone tries to link the mere fact of endogenous dmt to their favorite viewpoints or articles of faith.

 

[zapped17]

I GAVE you the evidence!

Yes EG, I am fully aware of all the references you posted - I already know that the presence of DMT has been found blood, urine, cerebrospinal fluid. In fact, if you actually read my post, you'd realize I mentioned some of this evidence. I am not denying that DMT is produced in the human body, or has a widespread presence in biological organisms. The crucial question is, however, whether or not DMT is synthesized in the human brain and/or pineal gland, and whether or not fluctuating levels of DMT in the human nervous system could account for the occurrence of NDEs, psychosis, mystical experiences, etc. There is as yet no direct evidence that DMT is produced in the human brain/pineal gland. And as I reasoned in my previous post, endogenous DMT may not be necessary to explain the occurrence of certain altered states - there's evidence (which I cited) that shows there is no correlation between DMT levels and dreaming, nor is there a correlation between DMT levels and psychosis.

I'm having a hard time seeing how the question of endogenous DMT is related to the question of whether consciousness is physical or not, or whether endogenous DMT gives credence to the reality of spiritual phenomena. These seem to be very separate issues, and they should be kept separate. Questions such as those have been discussed in great detail in a variety of places on the Nexus - this thread concerns quite a different topic. Belief or disbelief in the endogenous production of DMT in the brain simply does not entail one to take a stand on the "hard problem" of consciousness, or issues pertaining to spirituality.

I actually happen to be in agreement with a good deal of the things you've said in this thread and elsewhere, EG. But these really are separate issues from the endogenous DMT theory. (And I happen to love Terence Mckenna, and a lot of the stuff you quote from him - however, this doesn't mean I fully agree with all of the things he said.)

 

[Mindlusion]

I'm not going to debate, if you don't make the connection you don't make the connection...

PCP is "light years" away from what I'm describing with these tryptamines.

I don't condemn, I don't convert, if you want to hear my thoughts fine, but if you want to debate, your probably talking to the wrong person, there's no way you can tell or show another proof, they have to experience it on their own...

-eg

So the only way to know is experience it, yet you are still the judge if someone 'really' experiences it...

Yet you haven't experienced a hole on dissociatives but you already know how to judge whether someone has had a NDE or not?


The funny thing is, putting the endogenous DMT theory aside, I actually tend to AGREE with a lot of the philosophy you have presented here, even the TM excerpt, I think it's excellent. Including some of what was said about the dissociatives, no drug that fully dissolves the ego can be as addicting and abusable as dissociative drugs. Not to mention the delusions of grandeur, its more of a merging of the ego with nothingness, absolute power.

However, it doesn't mean it can't catalyse or be the cause of a near-death, mystical, or otherwise life-changing and paradigm shifting experience...

The way you are forming your arguments is absurd. You confuse your own ideas with fact, writing as if you are expecting everyone should agree with your opinions because you post some quote and you feel your interpretation is the only one. Totally hypocritical.. evidence? judgement? Come on dude.

 

[1ce]

there exist several research articles involving numerous assays
elucidating presence in human plasma, (Thompson et. al, 1999, Presti et al., 2004, etc.).

and as the authors in the cited papers have pointed out, the concentrations are well below those of common active doses.

I've read numerous papers stating inmt produces both dmt amd bufotenin. Also read a couple good reads claiming that it's not exactly dmt that causes effects but an extremely short acting 6ho-dmt.

I don't think it's impossible, but it's sure hard to test for substances when they don't stick around.

 

[benzyme]

I do have a deep reverence for the compound, and rarely partake. it can be abused as can any other compound, I just chose (foolishly) to abuse pcp in my younger years. the dmt experience is more..."magical". it represents something. dissociatives represent nothing; analogously, matter and antimatter.


yea, this got off-topic quickly.

the DNA code for tryptophan metabolism is ubiquitous in flora and fauna. it's no surprise that humans contain dmt. what seems interesting is how we evolved to not produce it in abundance.

what makes me wonder is the sumerian art with bugged-out eyes...

 

[dreamer042]

there exist several research articles involving numerous assays
elucidating presence in human plasma, (Thompson et. al, 1999, Presti et al., 2004, etc.).

and as the authors in the cited papers have pointed out, the concentrations are well below those of common active doses.

I've read numerous papers stating inmt produces both dmt amd bufotenin. Also read a couple good reads claiming that it's not exactly dmt that causes effects but an extremely short acting 6ho-dmt.

I don't think it's impossible, but it's sure hard to test for substances when they don't stick around.

This is intriguing, could you point me in the right direction as to some references for these good reads? :thumb_up:

 

[1ce]

I do have a deep reverence for the compound, and rarely partake. it can be abused as can any other compound, I just chose (foolishly) to abuse pcp in my younger years. the dmt experience is more..."magical". it represents something. dissociatives represent nothing; analogously, matter and antimatter.


yea, this got off-topic quickly.

the DNA code for tryptophan metabolism is ubiquitous in flora and fauna. it's no surprise that humans contain dmt. what seems interesting is how we evolved to not produce it in abundance.

what makes me wonder is the sumerian art with bugged-out eyes...

I dunno. I like to think that back in the day people would gather and eat any plant that didn't kill them. Also the kykeon is a another example. There are even many old paintings of the apostles holding wheat and mushrooms. -- which isn't even thst shocking as ancient christianity had greek origions.

I think mankind has been around the block a few times. 8)


Edit: while researching I stubled upon a journal that stated inmt is somehow not [resent in patients with lung camcer. At least in local lung tissue. Perhaps a metabolite of dmt could act as a messenger molecule or help terminate signals from the immunr system.

Biologically we use the stuff so fast it's hard to collect new data from what it seems.

 

[Global]

I think a big part of the problem that we often tend to not consider is that just because DMT correlates with the near-death and dream states (and so on...) doesn't mean that DMT is responsible for creating these states in natural settings just because DMT could be showing a representation of the NDE without creating a veritable NDE, and most people would be none the wiser. Let's just hypothetically assume that the DMT state was designed by some kind of intelligence, for devil's advocate if nothing else. If this were the case and that intelligence were aware of the phenomenology of dreaming states and NDEs, then it could design a simulation of those states. It's not too different than a computer graphics artist designing a cutscene that resembles the DMT state. If that artist were to import artificial intelligences into his computer environment, they would be incorrect to assume that the experience they are having is a result of some chemical inside them. Now to pull it all back, I'm not saying it's the case, but since such a scenario could be posited, it is likely that other similar ones could be too, and this should cast doubt on correlating the phenomenology between DMT, dreaming, NDE, etc...

Keep in mind, your view, is the newer concept, these chemicals were entheogens before their structures were elucidated in the lab, a purely "scientific" view of entheogens is the newer concept.

..and if it were a truly scientific view you would not be so quick to jump to conclusions, there isn't much evidence one way or another, and, evidence for this type of issue can not be generated, it's a personal decision you must make based on your experience.

...at one point people all thought the earth was flat, and to say otherwise was absurd, now an imitation of scientific thought has become the new cultural dogma...

..."consciousness is a product of the brain", this is you claim, where is your evidence?

..."consciousness is generated by the physical body" ok, so where is your evidence? Where is consciousness generated, and how?...

I think a big part of the problem that we often tend to not consider is that just because DMT correlates with the near-death and dream states (and so on...) doesn't mean that DMT is responsible for creating these states in natural settings just because DMT could be showing a representation of the NDE without creating a veritable NDE, and most people would be none the wiser

But, because it correlates with and represents after death and mystical states so effectively, could it not then be used to understand and map these states?

I'm sure most people will use DMT and never try to relate it to anything bigger than an intoxication, which is fine, by why criticize the people who can effectively and reliably use these substances for entheogenic means?

Most would not consider datura species spiritual, but shamans have found effective Entheogenic uses for these plants, so, just because it's difficult for you to make this connection between a plant or chemical experiance and it's spiritual implications, does not mean these things can not be used in that manner.


Again, if you can read all the spiritual material I posted in this thread, specially considering "bardo states" and "fanaa", and see absolutely no relation to spirituality, than I don't know what to tell you, you will have to generate your understanding of death by some other means.

ND: You have said that an important part of the mystical quest is to face up to death and recognize it as a rhythm of life. Would you like to enlarge on your view on the implications of the dying process?

TM: I take seriously the notion that these psychedelic states are an anticipation of the dying process-or, as the Tibetans refer to it, the Bardo level beyond physical death. It seems likely that our physical lives are a type of launching pad for the soul. As the esoteric traditions say, life is an opportunity to prepare for death, and we should learn to recognize the signposts along the way, so that when death comes, we can make the transition smoothly. I think the psychedelics show you the transcendental nature of reality. It would be hard to die gracefully as an atheist or existentialist. Why should you? Why not rage against the dying of the light? But if in fact this is not the dying of the light but the Dawning of the Great Light, then one should certainly not rage against that. There's a tendency in the New Age to deny death. We have people pursuing physical immortality and freezing their heads until the fifth millennium, when they can be thawed out. All of this indicates a lack of balance or equilibrium. The Tao flows through the realms of life and nonlife with equal ease.
-terence mckenna

-eg

I'm not attempting to take a scientific view, I'm taking a skeptical view. If anything I remain agnostic on these issues. You are the one who is rushing to plant your flag.

 

[fathomlessness]

Just a question... Is there not other molecules that exist in trace amounts in the bodies of animals and/or trees as well? Do they share any similarities to DMT and do we not know there function yet?

If say there were a handful of molecules that were synthesized in trace amounts and appear to have no apparent purpose then I have a theory...

Lets take Francis Crick's transpermia idea and that we evolved from unicellular organisms from a meteor landing, or not, let's use the gas and lightening hypothesis too.

What I think could be responsible for the existence of DMT and other possible molecules like it is that they may be useful in OTHER planetary environments and not earth, so therefore end up only being produced in trace amounts. It just so happens that on earth, the most useful arrangement is dopamine/serotonin/norepinhrine etc. But perhaps on other planets, evolution calls for it's creatures to have a radically altered physiology that incorporates Dimethyltryptamine in to it's structure as a major component. So, The genetic blueprint contains a vast array of scripts for biological materials that cells can produce and depending on the environment of the planet, one is favored over the other leaving it to only be found in trace amounts.

Who knows, maybe 30,000 light years away exists similar looking creatures to us yet except using serotonin as a neuro-modulater, they use DMT and are in constant contact with another reality which we don't observe and likewise WE humans are in contact with a reality that THEY don't observe because of the neuro-chemical differences in our brains.

 

[fathomlessness]

My view is that the conscious-being and the physical body are in fact two separate entities, and if you follow the implications of this realization it becomes that obvious that at death, when the body dies, consciousness continues.
-eg

That is great that you have your own view, but logically if you follow the implications of this realization you DO NOT come to the conclusion that consciousness continues after death. That is jumping to conclusions.

Just because the physical body and the conscious-being have not yet been proven to be one and the same thing does not therefore infer that the consciousness continues after death. Look, I completely agree that dualism is real and the conscious-being and the physical body are in fact two separate entities but what your saying does not follow from one to the other, it is only a possibility. Let me explain further:

If your body is in "reality/dimension A" and your consciousness in "reality/dimension B", then why does reality B stay unchanged after death? Where is the proof of that it is primary and not dependent on "reality/dimension A"? In fact, "reality/dimension A" may be dependent on the physical universe for its existence and once "reality/dimension A" no longer existence then the same may go for reality B. In other words, you can not prove consciousness is primary, or that physicality is... yet... lol

 

[null24]

If your body is in "reality/dimension A" and your consciousness in "reality/dimension B", then why does reality B stay unchanged after death? Where is the proof of that it is primary and not dependent on "reality/dimension A"? In fact, "reality/dimension A" may be dependent on the physical universe for its existence and once "reality/dimension A" no longer existence then the same may go for reality B. In other words, you can not prove consciousness is primary, or that physicality is... yet... lol

I really didn't want to contribute to this thread's off rail trajectory, but thanks for that, puts it pretty well imo. As hhave many here, i have undergone a non dual experience through the use of entheogens, and while definitely changed my perceptions of what death is, it did not answer any question regarding continuation of consciousness. If anything, it may have instilled an idea within me that what i term consciousness dissolves completely upon the cessation of bodily function.

Ok, done, carry on.

 

[Psybin]

As hhave many here, i have undergone a non dual experience through the use of entheogens, and while definitely changed my perceptions of what death is, it did not answer any question regarding continuation of consciousness. If anything, it may have instilled an idea within me that what i term consciousness dissolves completely upon the cessation of bodily function.

null, it's interesting to hear someone else with a similar perspective on the topic. If anything, the white light experiences only seem to have affirmed my belief that the moment of death and dissolution of consciousness probably feels very similar up until you just stop being all together, like with anesthesia (that's a whole 'nother can of worms, though :lol: ; instantly teleporting from the operating table to a recovery room can be in many ways just as deep an experience as a DMT breakthrough in terms of shattering one's concept of consciousness).

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I'm not going to debate, if you don't make the connection you don't make the connection...

PCP is "light years" away from what I'm describing with these tryptamines.

I don't condemn, I don't convert, if you want to hear my thoughts fine, but if you want to debate, your probably talking to the wrong person, there's no way you can tell or show another proof, they have to experience it on their own...

-eg

So the only way to know is experience it, yet you are still the judge if someone 'really' experiences it...

Yet you haven't experienced a hole on dissociatives but you already know how to judge whether someone has had a NDE or not?


The funny thing is, putting the endogenous DMT theory aside, I actually tend to AGREE with a lot of the philosophy you have presented here, even the TM excerpt, I think it's excellent. Including some of what was said about the dissociatives, no drug that fully dissolves the ego can be as addicting and abusable as dissociative drugs. Not to mention the delusions of grandeur, its more of a merging of the ego with nothingness, absolute power.

However, it doesn't mean it can't catalyse or be the cause of a near-death, mystical, or otherwise life-changing and paradigm shifting experience...

The way you are forming your arguments is absurd. You confuse your own ideas with fact, writing as if you are expecting everyone should agree with your opinions because you post some quote and you feel your interpretation is the only one. Totally hypocritical.. evidence? judgement? Come on dude.

Again, I feel there was nothing but misunderstanding here, because it seems you agree with me on every level, the only disagreements where misunderstandings, places where you said "you say this or that" when in fact nothing even close was stated by myself.

I'm going to leave this one where it's at, if you ever do notice some connection between DMT and the topics I've outlined I would be happy to share my thoughts, but it's not an issue to debate over, I tried to respond to every post, and was told to "calm down" simply because there was a good deal of information which needed to be conveyed, it's too much for me too explain in this context, too much background to provide, it's clear that most did not even read anything that I wrote, and if they did they didn't understand a word of it, you have to know your audience, and when your not making a connection, stop.

Though, this bothers me, you really feel all the consciousness you will ever experience will be attached to your currant physical form?

...there's no evidence that a physical body is a prerequisite for conscious-being, yet I have personally seen evidence to the contrary, it's not empirical evidence (which is why debate is pointless), I can't put you through what I went through, there's no way to verify anything, and I never said there was.

Is the view that that consciousness is a product of the physical body any more "scientific" than my view that consciousness is generated independent of the physical body? It's a double standard entirely, science shows either option has an equal chance of being correct, it's your responsibility as a being experiencing conscious-existance to figure all this out, you can ask others for advice, but nobody can "tell" you the situation, you have to live it.

As far as DMT being "endogenous", which means "produced in the human body" there is no debate, the human body produces DMT, we even have an idea why it's there, it acts as the endogenous ligland to the sigmar-1 receptor, but I've already detailed all of this.

-eg

 

[benzyme]

the sigma receptor is so poorly understood. even to this day, there is no known significant function of this 7-TM receptor.
originally, it was (falsely) considered an opioid receptor. phencyclidine is also a ligand for sigma-2, dizocilpine for sigma-1.