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Aya as a supplement?

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fractal enchantment said:
I think I will start to drink mate every morning again, and just purge when i need to. Hard to do at work though..
Try a lower dose when you need to go to work. Even though you do not vomit, it does not mean it won't work on you. Might take a little longer to get cleaned out though, but you avoid vomiting at work ;)

You could also try microdosing throughout the day.
 
SWIMfriend said:
acolon_5 said:
....Also, SWIMfriend, there HAVE been literature that studies that CHRONIC use and RITUAL use of ayahausca. It has been found to be VERY safe. The Brazilian government did extensive studies on ayahuasca including "chronic" use. I unfortunately don't have these on hand, but I can assure you they are out there.

I don't question that at all...I only wanted to specify that the article you referenced didn't address the exact issue of chronic, small-dose use.

I'll reaffirm here that I know virtually nothing (yet) about this entire topic. I'm here to learn from a GREAT bunch of people who have TREMENDOUS experience. I DO know how to read a journal article (and also, I've had two years of med school--which really doesn't count for much, but....I have at least been well-introduced to "modern medical thinking"). There ARE examples of substances where occasional heavy use is not known to be harmful, but "chronic" use is: tobacco comes to mind.

No, its cool, you brought up a very good point. The article I have DOES NOT talk about chronic use of MAOI's + DMT on a daily basis and how that affects the brain and the body. Much heavier MAOIs ARE currently perscribed for depression and have been for a very long time. They do carry the "cheese syndrome" from eating things high in tryamine...but RIMA's for the most part do not have this restriction.

And I'll also restate what I thought was a useful point: One has to wonder, if it's necessary or useful to chronically use herbs with significant physiologic effects--what's going on with the user. People here are very interested in the SSRIs, for example, because they're involved with the same neural system that spice/ayahuasca is; but I would say that medicine/psychiatry has a VERY POOR understanding of psychological pathologies in general, including depression. It would be my hope that the insights earned from full-blown ayahausca and spice experiences would have a significant positive effect on depression--and I think some people here have said that they do. But if it is THE INSIGHTS/EXPERIENCE that helps with their depression, then confounding that with medical ideas about depression and serotonin systems doesn't necesarily follow...

Well the curranderos of the Amazon would say YES....they call it a plant dieta. Every morning an apprentice will go to a secluded hut and partake of a plant so that he/she may learn of its spirit and become comfortable with it. This is however different from the conversation we are having about low dose Caapi as an antidepressant. I would say that SSRI's carry heaps of rather unsettling side effects and withdrawl symptoms that Caapi does not have. Not being a medical professional nor having studied the long term effects of Caapi I cannot say more than I already have. It appears to be safe for daily use. I would love for the medical and scientific community to research these plants more, but there is no market for it and the US government has such rigid restrictions on any scheduled chemical (esp psycadelics) that reseachers just don't want to touch it. Thank god for MAPS.

Both the experience as well as the pharmacological effect of Caapi help with depression. The doses I am talking about are too low for MAO inhibtion to take place....physically it should be safe...to use your example of tobacco: Would smoking 1 puff off of a ciggarrett ever morning be detrimental to your health? Probably not....not great for you but not dangerous like a pack a day habit (thousands of puffs)...the same applies to Caapi. It has been proven safe through thousands of years of use....would it be good to drink nothing but Caapi tea, probably not....but would it be safe to take a micro dose of it for a few weeks at a time (always take a week or two break after a few weeks of use!) probably. Do the risks outweight the benefits....YES, IMHO. Depression is horrible. I went through years and years of serious acute depression. Something WAS (and occasionally IS) going on with me.


But please, if anyone DOES have any info that daily micro dosing of Caapi is not safe, please let us know!
 
acolon_5 said:
....It has been proven safe through thousands of years of use....would it be good to drink nothing but Caapi tea, probably not....but would it be safe to take a micro dose of it for a few weeks at a time (always take a week or two break after a few weeks of use!) probably. Do the risks outweight the benefits....YES, IMHO. Depression is horrible. I went through years and years of serious acute depression. Something WAS (and occasionally IS) going on with me.

But please, if anyone DOES have any info that daily micro dosing of Caapi is not safe, please let us know!

Most useful things are a tradeoff. It's hard to argue that self-treating a DEBILITATING condition with an herb which, through quite substantial historical experience, seems not to have negative effects, and which LACKS the same side effects that accepted medical drugs cause...would be a bad thing.

It's true that there is NO "built-in" safety feature with modern drugs: Researchers create something that seems likely to work, they test it for the effect they want, and then they perform a small but reasonable trial to find out if it's dangerous. From a rational and objective point of view, that is NOT nearly as thorough a test as one that involves generations of large numbers of users--as is true of the herbs under discussion.

I think the idea of modulating use--taking off periods when it doesn't seem needed, etc.--seems rational and wise.
 
SWIM is not suffering from depression, but he tried microdosing by making a cup of tea out of a teaspoon of aya today and yesterday and letting each cup sit overnight... there's a definite mood lift and increase in energy, I think Acolon_5 could be right about microdosing. Could this be the herbal answer to the pharmaceutical pushers' products?

SWIM might try gelcaps of powdered vine too to see if this has a similar effect. I expect in practice we would see extracts, but powdered vine requires the least processing so could be the least environmentally damaging and most cost effective if one gelcap provided enough of a lift.

Will someone PLEASE look into this, it would be wonderful to see medical trials and see ayawaska microdoses sold in supermarkets, instead of having kids damaging their brains / zombifying their emotions / committing suicide on synthetic poisons. I know there are some people working in the relevent industries on here, but I can't remember who does what...
 
I have just started a microdosing experiment, inspired by Acolon_5 and SWIM, because I was feeling sufficiently low to give it a try. This is day 2 of 27.

A batch of ayawaska was made using 100g of ayawaska in the usual method (low heat on hob, vinegar, filtered water, 3 washes).
Half of this was consumed by another person along with chacruna to give a successful visionary session, showing the aya to be sufficient quality.
The other half of ayawaska was reduced to a pint, frozen for a few months, then defrosted and used to make 28 ice cubes. One was ingested by a curious friend, leaving 27 (each 1/28th of a normal dose).
Every morning, I pour boiling water onto one ice cube in a mug and drink it first thing in the morning. I then wash and get ready for the day and eat breakfast an hour or at the least half an hour after ingestion.
Breakfast is usually muesli, but this may change.

Though it could be placebo, I feel I have noticed effects immediately, and they last all day so far. Increased mental energy and positivity. Also a slight dreamy feeling, and slight headache, but this could be from the cold I have or slight interactions with food because I am not following dieta. We will see as I recover from the illness.

I will post again when the experiment is concluded. Do comment if you have advice.
 
Experiment concluded. I forgot to say that we aren't on any medication, and we didn't take anything other than the odd cup of tea. I had a melatonin on a few nights in the first week because I couldn't sleep (maybe the aya making me alert???).

DOSAGE PROGRAMME:

I took the aya icecube supplement for 18 days every morning.
My friend wanted to join in so took the supplement for 18 days also, but she began alternating to every other day, so she had 10 doses in all over 18 days. She was more sporadic in timing of taking the supplement, sometimes morning and sometimes night.

EFFECTS:

We both got a mild headache after our first supplement. That one may have been a little stronger because it was the dregs from the pan and had more bits in. My friend got another headache after her second supplement the next day, I got a tiny one too but not much at all. After that no more headaches.

I was already a little down in the dumps but I actually got worse during the first week, feeling pretty down, although I generally felt good immediately after my morning aya. I felt as if my emotions had been heightened. I felt more spiritual, more anxious, more happy, more sad, etc... less level than usual. About half way through I got some bad news and got really worried and sad for the rest of the experiment. I don't know if the aya was making it worse, but I suspect so, I suspect that it was heightening my worry and sadness. The cause of worry was half resolved on the last day of the experiment, so I can't tell if my lack of worry afterwards was due to the semi-resolution or coming off the aya supplements.

I told this to my friend when the experiment ended. My friend had also been feeling more emotional than baseline during the experiment, but she had assumed it was her 'hormones'. (I am male, by the way) Also, we live together at the moment so we could have been affecting each other.

CONCLUSION:

From this limited experiment I am not sure if taking supplements at this dosage and frequency etc did us any good while we were taking it. We felt it heightened our emotions, and as bad stuff happened it was negative emotions being heightened. If this is not placebo, I don't think I would recommend aya supplements for depressed people.
However, as neither of us were clinically depressed maybe it is possible someone more depressed could benefit if there is something going on with brain chemistry that we couldn't notice because we weren't clinically depressed.
Neither of us noticed any improvement in our happiness levels in the week after the experiment compared to before the experiment. That doesn't mean there wasn't an improvement, I suppose, but we didn't notice one so it's safer to assume there was no benefit.

I don't think a clinically depressed person would benefit from feeling spiritual and emotionally heightened all day long. I think that the traditional dosage- a sporadic large one- works better.

POTENTIAL FOR FUTURE EXPERIMENTS

This experiment should really be done on clinically depressed people. But that seems pretty harsh to me, given how it might heighten negative emotions. It would be good though if someone experiencing depression tried it and reported back though (making sure to stop immediately if their condition worsens).

Would anyone like to replicate the experiment and report back?

I wonder if, say, a weekly dose of aya at sub-purge levels would be better? If anyone knows what dose of aya will not cause a person to purge, please let me know and I'll perform another experiment, for a month or so.
 
for me thats a full brew..the mimosa is active at 25 grams caapi for me..25 grams caapi alone can give me visions..I get visuals and visions and lots of euphoria and everything at that level..just be sure to decant the mimosa tea before you reduce it..you can brew the mimosa seperate at first..decant it after its sat in the fridge..then add it to the caapi tea and reduce the whoel thing..

I just brew the 2 together though and decant both at the same time..but some say that decanting the caapi weekends it but im not sure.

I find that maoi starts for me at 10-15 grams of really good vine..but I prefer to go higher. Eventaully Il be adding more vine..I never drank more than 35g of caapi.
 
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