Ayahuasca and delusions (pre-retreat queries and thoughts)

[promises]

Hello DMT-nexus, this is my first post on the forum and I've got some queries about Ayahuasca.

I have been considering going to an Ayahuasca retreat, but I’m uncertain if it would be the best option for me. I’ve read up on the experience and have been familiar with the medicine for some time without feeling called to take it myself. It just never occurred to me that it would be an actual option. It felt too far out there. A couple of months ago I felt the calling, if you will, and I’m seriously considering booking a retreat to take Ayahuasca for healing purposes. I have some concerns however. Partly due to things I’ve read and partly due to personal matters most of which I’ll probably not elaborate on in this post. They’re not particularly important. They just add a layer of resistance. What I nevertheless wish to discuss is the spiritual, and to a secularized westerner, delusional aspects of the Ayahuasca experience which are frequently discussed, such as seeing entities and other otherworldly insights and revelations.

I had a trippy experience sans drugs and it messed with my head. I got stuck in an infinite-cognitive-dissonance-loop where my mind couldn’t settle for a definite belief and I couldn’t get the answer from the source of my quandary. The ping-pong back and forth motion between feeling and rationality was pretty disconcerting. I’m not a spiritual or religious person. Most of the people I know are atheists. I was brought up atheist. Believing in anything other than cold hard matter is basically a sin where I come from. It’s seen as nutty. That’s why one of my concerns about taking Ayahuasca is that it will open me up to a more spiritual way of seeing the world. It’s not that I don’t want to, it’s just that I’m not sure I am able to because of my social conditioning and my culture. I’m afraid it will breed illusions, delusions and dissonance instead of being a grounding force.

An example of the above is a post I read by some guy who left an Ayahuasca retreat with the feeling of ‘having a greater purpose’, that is, until he took Iboga some time later which told him that “nope, that’s just another delusion, you’re no more important than an ant.” The Iboga insight is aligned with my current perspective of the world. And whenever I see Ayahuasca discussed ‘she’ is referred to as an actual entity which deliver truth. Thus, I see a danger in creating another infinite-cognitive-dissonance-loop in which I’ll have to align a foreign belief system into my current way of making sense of the world. Stuff like that can be utterly confusing and harmful I believe.

The reason for me wanting to take Ayahuasca is that I have … well, a form of C-PTSD, I’d say. But I use the term “PTSD” kind of loosely and apologetic, because I’m definitely post traumatized, but not because of any of the traditional reasons for PTSD and I don’t want to minimize anyone’s experience. However, being post traumatized is of course another reason for fearing Ayahuasca. Because how would I know pre-ceremony if I’m mentally and emotionally sturdy enough to be confronted with my own brain? What I’m very much interested in exploring is the ‘new neural pathway theory’. A traumatized brain is stuck, and I’d wish for Ayahuasca to create a new neural pathway beyond the traumatized pathway in which I’m currently stuck.

This is kind of long and incoherent, but I suppose my question is whether Ayahuasca breeds illusion or truth? – even though I’m aware the line between the two isn’t always so clear-cut. Would you say Ayahuasca has made you more grounded or more delusional? And how do you make sense of the spiritual insights as an atheist, if you’re one? Lastly, would you recommend Ayahuasca to someone suffering from C-PTSD? Could it be further traumatizing?

Regarding the last part I also find it very disconcerting to read the resistance and blaming coming from the “Ayahuasca community” whenever someone say they’re worse off after an Ayahuasca ceremony. So if it would lead to further traumatizing you’re pretty much on your own it seems. Well, not everyone's like that but I've read my fair share of blaming whenever people speak of their negative experiences with the medicine.

Thanks for reading, if you did!

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

Forgive me, |'m going to be blunt. You sound like you have an extremely fragile mind. You should probably stay as far from all drugs as possible.

Of course, if you really, really want it, go ahead, but be prepared that the drug is gonna reach down your throat, grab your ass, pull it out through your mouth, and then hand it to you with a flourish. Now, this could, on the long term, make you a more stable person, but it could also end with you in a mental hospital.

 

[promises]

Forgive me, |'m going to be blunt. You sound like you have an extremely fragile mind. You should probably stay as far from all drugs as possible.

Of course, if you really, really want it, go ahead, but be prepared that the drug is gonna reach down your throat, grab your ass, pull it out through your mouth, and then hand it to you with a flourish. Now, this could, on the long term, make you a more stable person, but it could also end with you in a mental hospital.

Ahah. That's alright, PsyDuckmonkey. However, making an assumption or assertion like that without backing it up with some sort of explanation is rather sloppy. So why do you say that it sounds like I have an extremely fragile mind?

I'm not entirely new to these experiences. But Ayahuasca seems to be on a completely different level.

 

[Exitwound]

What's up with diving straight into hardcore psychedelics?

Have you tried some more forgiving substances?

I suggest to start with low shrooms dose if you feel that calling.
Increase the dose if you like your experience and see where that brings you.
Then multiply intensity times thousand and that might give you some insight about where proper dose of DMT can bring you.

Oh you fear something? You might as well get ready for your fear showed straight in your face.

I suggest starting with lower doses or milder psychedelics before diving deep.

 

[promises]

What's up with diving straight into hardcore psychedelics?

Have you tried some more forgiving substances?

I suggest to start with low shrooms dose if you feel that calling.
Increase the dose if you like your experience and see where that brings you.
Then multiply intensity times thousand and that might give you some insight about where proper dose of DMT can bring you.

Oh you fear something? You might as well get ready for your fear showed straight in your face.

I suggest starting with lower doses or milder psychedelics before diving deep.

Thanks for your reply!

I suppose I'm considering Ayahuasca specifically since I believe I do need to shock myself out of my current state of mind. I shocked myself into it, hence I have a theory that I need to do it again to get out of it. Also, I think it's the format of a retreat aimed at healing emotional wounds that's appealing. It's more difficult to find a shroom-healing-retreat. Shrooms are also less often discussed for their healing properties. I have some experience with LSD and even though it positively influenced me it was not necessarily healing in the way I'm assuming Ayahuasca could be. But, my experiences with LSD was also way before I even had the need to shock myself out of a persistent emotional wound ... or, well, it's complicated.

But I have considered shrooms to lull myself into the experience (shrooms can be harsh too, I know, I know). The issue is I don't know anyone these days who could help me to acquire them, and I'm a bit reluctant because of the legality status. I'm more careful nowadays. I feel like an old grandpa dabbing into the world of psychedelics.
____________________________________________________________

I just have to add that it's not only that I want to shock myself out of something. It's just that I've got some deep healing to do and based of what I've read Ayahuasca seems to be able to untie the knots of hurt and get to the root of the issue, which is why I'm asking about the delusional aspect. Because my aim would be to get to the root of the hurt and confusion, not to experience further emotional conflict. I've read several accounts of people getting out of an Ayahuasca ceremony with what to me sounds like utter delusions and that would not be an optimal outcome for me personally.

 

[Jupitor]

@promises-

I don't think you have a fragile mind. It sounds like you are dealing with some type of spiritual emergency. And that can be absolutely terrifying. But have faith. If the brew is calling, heed the call. There's a good chance it will be one of the best decisions you have ever made.

In regards to your question as to whether Ayahuasca breeds illusion or truth- yes and yes. Ayahuasca spoke to me in metaphor. Some might call this "illusion". For example, in my last vision, I had an experience that led me to an understanding of who I was in a past life. And it was someone that is rather famous in history. And at the time, I thought I had gone batshit crazy.

But after a lot of post-ceremony processing, I now understand the meaning of that vision to be that my archetype or inner nature is the same as the person I experienced as "me" in a past life. In other words, it was not literal. But it helped me understand myself better. And understand my obstacles. Know where my pitfalls are to watch out for. And it gave me a frame of reference to learn from mistakes "I" made, without having to actually make them in this life. And THAT has been incredibly empowering.

If you are a religious atheist (meaning one who is absolutely certain of this view), you may encounter difficulties when you meet God . Ayahuasca likes open minds. And if you go into the experience with a closed mind, you may find it difficult.

I look forward to hearing your report when you return

 

[promises]

@promises-

I don't think you have a fragile mind. It sounds like you are dealing with some type of spiritual emergency. And that can be absolutely terrifying. But have faith. If the brew is calling, heed the call. There's a good chance it will be one of the best decisions you have ever made.

In regards to your question as to whether Ayahuasca breeds illusion or truth- yes and yes. Ayahuasca spoke to me in metaphor. Some might call this "illusion". For example, in my last vision, I had an experience that led me to an understanding of who I was in a past life. And it was someone that is rather famous in history. And at the time, I thought I had gone batshit crazy.

But after a lot of post-ceremony processing, I now understand the meaning of that vision to be that my archetype or inner nature is the same as the person I experienced as "me" in a past life. In other words, it was not literal. But it helped me understand myself better. And understand my obstacles. Know where my pitfalls are to watch out for. And it gave me a frame of reference to learn from mistakes "I" made, without having to actually make them in this life. And THAT has been incredibly empowering.

If you are a religious atheist (meaning one who is absolutely certain of this view), you may encounter difficulties when you meet God . Ayahuasca likes open minds. And if you go into the experience with a closed mind, you may find it difficult.

I look forward to hearing your report when you return

Thank you Jupitor. I ‘awed’ in person as I read this. I kind of get where PsyDuckmonkey is coming from when they’re calling me fragile. It’s just that I’m not so sure they know where I’m coming from. I have experienced a spiritual emergency, so that’s very perspicacious of you. It’s an emergency that has extended itself into a post spiritual emergency. I’m not so sure I would have understood the mental and emotional reasoning of a person with C-PTSD or trauma or anything like that before experiencing it myself. It puts your mind in a foreign shakier domain and suddenly you have to thread carefully through life.

Your post is also a perfect example of what I’m referring to and what I’m somewhat afraid of. Because I have no framework to process and entrench a vision of me in a past life. I’ve seen several accounts of past life visions during an Ayahuasca ceremony, and the people recounting for these visions often accept them as the truth. I would fight my mind on that point. I’m already too familiar with the sense of cognitive dissonance and it’s not a pleasant feeling. So when you’re shown an unmistakable vision of something which completely opposes the way you’ve been taught to perceive the world no wonder one would feel batshit crazy. I like your current interpretation of the vision though, that it was a metaphor for an archetype. However, I can imagine that the process leading up to that interpretation was somewhat fraught with cognitive dissonance ‘cause your rational mind battled the seemingly impossible vision of experiencing yourself in a past life. A Hindu, or someone with a previous belief in reincarnation, might have an easier time to digest a past life vision.

I’m not sure if I’m religiously atheist. Joe Rogan (I’m not sure why I’m referencing him since I barely know who he is except that I listened to one of his podcast episodes where he spoke about Iboga) had a vision of the universe being the heart of a titan who was running about his life among other titans and that the titan didn’t have any influence over the workings inside his heart including us people inhabiting it and praying to God to see, hear and help us. That’s what I believe, except that the titan in this case is a metaphor. It’s not that I’m entirely closed to some not so material beliefs. I just don’t want to feel confused. It’s kind of wearying to battle your own mind.

If I don’t end up in a mental institution as PsyDuckmonkey predicted, I’ll definitely come back with an update if I decide on a retreat. Thank you so much for your input!

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

However, making an assumption or assertion like that without backing it up with some sort of explanation is rather sloppy.

I thought it was kinda obvious to you too, and as I'm not your therapist, shaman or master, I didn't feel like nitpicking through your post to point all the signs out to you. I don't mean 'fragile mind' as an insult, a putdown, or even as a long-term trait that you have to accept and live with for the rest of your life.

What I meant is that right now, you probably don't have the stable groundwork and the emotional-mental flexibility to safely integrate a deep psychedelic experience. Maybe you will have it later. I'm rather on the 'harm reduction' bandwagon rather than the 'psychedelic evangelization' one. I do think these substances are incredibly powerful, but I do not see them as 'healers'. They are teachers, of the brutal, This-Is-Spartaaa, throw you out in the desert and make you crawl back, beat you up every day to fracture all your bones and make them heal to be stronger, 'you're here to learn so I'd rather see you dead than incapable' kind of teachers.

But Ayahuasca seems to be on a completely different level.
(...)
it was not necessarily healing in the way I'm assuming Ayahuasca could be.
(...)
based of what I've read Ayahuasca seems to be able to untie the knots of hurt and get to the root of the issue

'Assume' makes an 'Ass' out of 'U' and 'Me'. You've never done Aya, have you... You cannot know what is waiting for you in the trial (as all entheogenic deep dives are trials and initiations), nor can we know... But looking at your posts, it's probably not going to be nice.

So why do you say that it sounds like I have an extremely fragile mind?

You take your worldview far too seriously. You take what you read far too literally. You say you are afraid of being shown 'realities' that conflict with your preconceptions. This alone would, in my book, designate you as a 'fragile' mind. All things are either 'flexible' or 'fragile'. Strength doesn't factor in. Your mind may be 'hard', but you're running up against a cosmic battering ram! There is no 'resist'. It's 'bend' or 'shatter'. Guess what your mind will likely do.

(From what I gather, it has already shattered before, to some degree, and Aya wasn't even involved, as I understand...)

 

[promises]

However, making an assumption or assertion like that without backing it up with some sort of explanation is rather sloppy.

I thought it was kinda obvious to you too, and as I'm not your therapist, shaman or master, I didn't feel like nitpicking through your post to point all the signs out to you. I don't mean 'fragile mind' as an insult, a putdown, or even as a long-term trait that you have to accept and live with for the rest of your life.

What I meant is that right now, you probably don't have the stable groundwork and the emotional-mental flexibility to safely integrate a deep psychedelic experience. Maybe you will have it later. I'm rather on the 'harm reduction' bandwagon rather than the 'psychedelic evangelization' one. I do think these substances are incredibly powerful, but I do not see them as 'healers'. They are teachers, of the brutal, This-Is-Spartaaa, throw you out in the desert and make you crawl back, beat you up every day to fracture all your bones and make them heal to be stronger, 'you're here to learn so I'd rather see you dead than incapable' kind of teachers.

But Ayahuasca seems to be on a completely different level.
(...)
it was not necessarily healing in the way I'm assuming Ayahuasca could be.
(...)
based of what I've read Ayahuasca seems to be able to untie the knots of hurt and get to the root of the issue

'Assume' makes an 'Ass' out of 'U' and 'Me'. You've never done Aya, have you... You cannot know what is waiting for you in the trial (as all entheogenic deep dives are trials and initiations), nor can we know... But looking at your posts, it's probably not going to be nice.

So why do you say that it sounds like I have an extremely fragile mind?

You take your worldview far too seriously. You take what you read far too literally. You say you are afraid of being shown 'realities' that conflict with your preconceptions. This alone would, in my book, designate you as a 'fragile' mind. All things are either 'flexible' or 'fragile'. Strength doesn't factor in. Your mind may be 'hard', but you're running up against a cosmic battering ram! There is no 'resist'. It's 'bend' or 'shatter'. Guess what your mind will likely do.

(From what I gather, it has already shattered before, to some degree, and Aya wasn't even involved, as I understand...)

Well, if your post was coming from a place of genuine concern for the sake of harm reduction you likely would have worded it differently. Perhaps: “Ayahuasca may not be advised in the case of trauma because you are likely to get this trauma thrown in your face in a Sparta-like manner and thus risk you mental health – you can’t be mentally fragile when tripping”. The, excuse me I’m gonna be blunt you sound like you’ve got an extremely fragile mind stance is pretty, err, clear, yet unclear, in the “remember the implicit tone of your posts” kind of way, and you’re basically calling me an ass for assuming something about a substance which I have not yet used, as if it would be possible to have anything other than assumptions about anything at all before personally experiencing it. But, don’t mistake this for me being triggered. I’m just not a big fan of the whole “this is for your sake” rhetoric when I’m not so sure that’s the case.

This time around you've worded it differently, kinder. However, saying it probably won’t be nice is another 'Ass' out of 'U' and 'Me'. It’s not that I don’t believe you could be right. I think it’s very probable, but it is another assumption. I assume it could be healing and I assume it could be hell. Perhaps neither, perhaps both, perhaps one of the two.

Yesterday I read a great post about the 'traps and pitfalls of Ayahuasca' that brought up some valid points. E.g.

“At one point my healing became this weird narrative plotline that started to become more and more complicated, sounding like a television series that was running out of ideas. I was receiving messages that I needed a soul retrieval to heal this ancestral wound and the I would have to go and find my power animal to then go find my aenima who was trapped in a cage somewhere deep within my inner child who was lost in a sea located somewhere on the liver meridian line yadda yadda yadda… The phrase, ‘Wild Goose Chase.’ springs to mind. Some healings were exaggerated while in a heightened state. Some healings stuck while others faded. It was rarely a clear trajectory, more two steps forward, one step back.”

This is one of my concerns, regarding your "You say you are afraid of being shown 'realities' that conflict with your preconceptions." It would probably not be so problematic if the visions shown during an Ayahuasca trip didn’t seem to be given such extreme collective validity, I mean, 'even' Terence McKenna was so convinced by his visions of machine elves that he was sure they were entities from another dimension. So, the stuff Aya or DMT shows you is obviously very real and convincing, and for a person who’s already in a state of trauma being fed a false narrative is not a good thing. Why then take Ayahuasca one might ask? Because it’s a question of pros and cons, you win some you lose some. I’ve read several accounts of trips that were incredibly enlightening and healing, even difficult ones, where the person really did get a revelation of sorts.

But you are perfectly right PsyDuckmonkey, I don’t think I’d take too well to the “This-Is-Spartaaa, throw you out in the desert and make you crawl back, beat you up every day to fracture all your bones and make them heal to be stronger” kind of teacher, since I’ve already been through something like that, and I would find a teacher who put me through a similar experience all over again particularly sadistic and misguided.

I’m just trying to figure out if it’s the best (or even a conceivable) route for me. Sometimes I wish I was young(er) and carefree again! I’d probably just embark on the journey. It’s difficult to be an old grandpa (or grandma) (I’m not even that old) and be all aware of the risks and the possible consequences of one's choices.

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

Seriously, a little less seriousness would help you so much, lol. You going on a tirade because of a simple joke, to the point of having to protest that you're not triggered (I'm not sure I believe you on that) pretty much sums up why I wrote what I wrote.

I'm not invested in making you look bad, but I am invested in having fewer abreactions on Aya making it into the press to add to the bad image of psychedelics. And as I said, I'm not your shaman, just a random stranger sharing a viewpoint.

 

[promises]

Seriously, a little less seriousness would help you so much, lol. You going on a tirade because of a simple joke, to the point of having to protest that you're not triggered (I'm not sure I believe you on that) pretty much sums up why I wrote what I wrote.

I'm not invested in making you look bad, but I am invested in having fewer abreactions on Aya making it into the press to add to the bad image of psychedelics. And as I said, I'm not your shaman, just a random stranger sharing a viewpoint.

You're kinda prone to telling people who they are and what they should do. 'A little less seriousness would help you so much' and 'You sound like you have an extremely fragile mind. You should probably stay as far from all drugs as possible.' Also, I'm trying to discuss something that is serious to me, so taking it less seriously would feel forced. You're not my shaman, but you are a person who decided to answer to a post of mine by being somewhat judgy. I'm not triggered. I just responded in a way that felt right to me, which in turn triggered you to get defensive.

So, you're saying that you're advising against me taking Ayahuasca because it would lead to bad press? :surprised

 

[promises]

Just bumping this thread since I'm still interested in discussing the subject. I got the well-founded advice to take trauma less 'seriously', so there's that ... But, how about people with actual experience of trauma (or similar) who took Ayahuasca for this purpose. Any members who are willing to share their thoughts and experiences?

 

[Legarto Rey]

Ayahuasca, LSD, DMT freebase, Changa, Psilocybin, Phenethylamines, Salvia div, Ketamine...Pick your poison! Forget your preconceptions. Delve deeply into ANY psychedelics/dissociatives, you'll be humbled and reminded that your primacy of matter "beliefs", are but models of perception handed to you by those equally as clueless as all Homo sapiens sapiens.

We've all been "traumatized". You want stripped down and transpersonalized your naked apedness? Do the sacred medicine, at boundry dissoluting doses. You WILL be informed! What you do with this "informing" is 100% about you. Being made experientially aware of your total, complete and undeniable dependence upon a reality matrix that is GIFTED, moment to moment, to "you" from an infinitely allowing wellspring of totality, might just help you "heal". Or, you may just feel, you got real fucked up.

My advice, DiY. Learn to brew your own ayahuasca/anahuasca. Or extract plant derived DMT. Or culture your own mushrooms. Or grow your own Salvia div. Then establish a relationship with said TEACHER. Done with humility, you may be surprised by what the "dormouse said".


Peace

 

[promises]

Ayahuasca, LSD, DMT freebase, Changa, Psilocybin, Phenethylamines, Salvia div, Ketamine...Pick your poison! Forget your preconceptions. Delve deeply into ANY psychedelics/dissociatives, you'll be humbled and reminded that your primacy of matter "beliefs", are but models of perception handed to you by those equally as clueless as all Homo sapiens sapiens.

We've all been "traumatized". You want stripped down and transpersonalized your naked apedness? Do the sacred medicine, at boundry dissoluting doses. You WILL be informed! What you do with this "informing" is 100% about you. Being made experientially aware of your total, complete and undeniable dependence upon a reality matrix that is GIFTED, moment to moment, to "you" from an infinitely allowing wellspring of totality, might just help you "heal". Or, you may just feel, you got real fucked up.

My advice, DiY. Learn to brew your own ayahuasca/anahuasca. Or extract plant derived DMT. Or culture your own mushrooms. Or grow your own Salvia div. Then establish a relationship with said TEACHER. Done with humility, you may be surprised by what the "dormouse said".


Peace

Hi there Legarto Rey, thanks for your reply!

I wouldn't mind brewing my own Ayahuasca, or extract plant derived DMT, or culture my own mushrooms if it was legal where I lived. At this stage of my non-existing-expertise on these substances and considering its legality status I just don't think it would be a great idea. But in an Utopian society I would. Perhaps I have to get back into contact with some of my old hippie acquaintances. They'd probably have an idea.

I do believe everyone carries wounds. The difference as I see it between trauma and wounds are that a traumatized individual is operating from the wound as their focal point. It's the center of their world, while a wounded person carries the hurts in a backpack, sometimes picking things out of it but has the ability to put these experiences back in there and close the backpack from time to time. The trauma is always at the forefront pestering everything. Perhaps my experiences aren't larger than a wound but it is a wound from which I'm navigating my everyday life, and that's when it becomes a post-wound-something.

I however enjoyed reading your views on psychedelics and what they can bring. I'm still contemplating ...