Bardo Thodol / Death, Dying & Life [Discussion]

[aruse]

My interpretation is that this thread will be slightly more focused on the book, and maybe our personal practices as well, and a little less on psychedelic experience or practices. Is this the desired direction?

There are some differences, perhaps, between our individual experiences on psychedelics and the Buddhist practices, like described in "the art of dying." Mainly the drug experience, compared to the practices is often at least a little blurry and can be quite overwhelming with few common reference points as is a sober practice of cultivating peace, understanding, and assisting.
However, I too get a lot of help describing and relating to my psychedelic experiences from spiritual practice. And psychedelics are a exceptionally large motivator for me to bring the insights and overwhelming feelings of oneness and Realness into my normal reality.

My drug experience (hopefully relatable and especially to the book and my understanding of it (maybe a side note? but it seems important to share how i'm approaching this):

I take mushrooms mostly and I find myself wondering how there could be anything deeper. But i'm sure the various chemicals can be individually suited and perhaps they can also again provide different perspectives on the same Oneness.

TIP: In the past 3 years I have added caapi to my mushrooms and it has completely revolutionized my chemical experience. ..and I hear rue is at least just as good!

I do not know what a dmt/5meo rapid death is like, I have not experienced it. But sometimes I think the slow onset of mescaline (which can kill) or shrooms can also be at least as useful. There is often the exaggerated feelings of loss and fear as they are kicking in and you know that they are going to go further, possibly too much further. And though there is the knowledge that shrooms can not kill it is always (still so far for me) a relearning of that. I can only imagine 5meo, where one can actually die that those feelings would be that much more intensified, (if not jumped over "entirely" ) which could be good to accept the real possibility of dying, or neutral, as ultimately whether the experience is really possible (death) or thought to be ultimately safe experience, the process of acceptance and not knowing is the same. There was only one time that I really thought I had somehow died and it took me a full 24 hrs after the trip to realize my house and my town wasn't just a figment of my imagination. This was on mushrooms alone. Frequently under high doses the experience becomes so overwhelming that I have to distract myself (but as little as possible) from the idea that my head is breaking if I look any more (sometimes these ideas include actually killing myself but luckily there is always enough of me left to know not to do this). It is a practice to look more. I imagine this last point might be surpassed by a rapid drug death experience, and could be good as well. And I could easily call changes in perspective like mini deaths, where via insights one feels that things can never be the same again, though those feelings often where off leaving one with just the thought, there is something more.. A change of mind is a change of path, it is the birth of something new and the death of what might have been.

I am working on a theory and metaphor for death.
I am noticing that low dose shrooms are much like high dose shrooms but it is much less in your face. I am noticing that either way the process alters my reality and then strips it away until I arrive at a place that, though it looks the same, does Not feel the same, At All. At the moment I call these "rooms," I think I've read Pablo Amaringo call these "rooms" the "steam boat," which is the safe vessel that takes one on the journey, the physical environment. I like that there remains some reference points rather than dmt which so far seems completely random and unrelatable to me.

So, the discussion of this thread is to me, drugs or not, to understand death (including the instant of it) and to live more fully because even though we cannot know what comes after life we can recognize patterns and make pretty good guesses what happens, and regardless, ensure that this life, this moment is everything, wonderful! (non-dual dual approach, I think? or is it, dual non-dual? lol).

I've said too much, thanks for hanging in there!

Granted this topic can be so big that it can go in all too many directions. But it is great fun! I'll try to stay relatable from my perspective.

 

[○]

So, my book is slightly different, mainly it doesn't have such a long intro, hehe, and I have already begun chapter 1 but I will try to maintain the same pace of reading (I too read slow ). I would like to summarize the Forward I have, written by the Dali Lama:


Death is natural, it is guaranteed, and it is also unpredictable.
Therefor, by not ignoring it we can minimize the suffering it brings and prepare for it.
Most of us would like a peaceful death. But we cannot expect one of those if our life has been full of violence and agitation.

So, "To die well we must learn how to live well. Hoping for a peaceful death, we must cultivate peace in our mind, and in our way of life."

To the Buddhists the actual experience of death is very important. Though we are up against great karmic forces we can influence our rebirth by generating a virtuous state of mind at death.

Through repeated acquaintance with the processes of death in meditation, an accomplished meditator can use his/her actual death to gain great spiritual realization.

No less significant than preparing for our own death is helping others to die well. Because the dying are often helpless, like babies, we should relieve them of discomfort and assist them to die with composure.

:this is mostly quoted directly at length.

Beautiful passage you posted, and I agree on what was said.

Living well, retaining a level of equanimity during adversity in life - especially mentally - is crucial, learning to stay even in approach to lifes ups and downs - of course it's easier said than done, but like with anything else - it takes continual practice, developing this over time, eventually to where it can become solidified; because with anything in life - as the cliche' [though true] statement goes - "practice makes perfect". I think this can/will lend itself to that moment when Death comes.

That last part that mentioned helping the dying - because of them being helpless, like babies - I completely agree. My father is 81, he's been a massive part of my life, I usually go to see him and my mother several times per week, and to see the continual degradation of my father - both mentally and physically- it's a stark lesson on becoming older and essentially helpless - as life starts to break him down. I've seen the progression of his life as he ages - and it's very tough to watch, especially given how close we've been all my life. To see his memory slip into forgetfulness, to see his joints and bones begin to decay and cause immobility, atrophy, to look at his blankless [to me] expression alot of the times as he just stares off - you can see in real time how it all begins to slip away, moment to moment.

As this one saying goes - 'We're born into the world as babies, we go through life to progress as adults, then eventually come back full circle to becoming babies once again'.

I know the day will be not too far off when he dies, and I'm going to be right there [if at all possible] when it's happening. It's much harder than I let on here with words, though what am I going to do - wallow and cry about it? Possibly. I'm human after all with emotions; how could I not react in some way? Though I think it'll be important to retain the bigger picture in all this, and be there for him - and not be there for my wallowing; it'll be about him, not me. After all - he's the one dying.

In some ways too - I see that getting older can be comical, especially for the people watching in on the older folks - the things that old folk say and do - it can make you laugh, like Life does on many occasions. It sometimes feels to me like this comical aspect to getting older [especially to the younger people watching in on the older people] is in some ways a failsafe to help somewhat divert or negate the 'seriousness' of old age and what it does to the body and mind.

*** Btw, I edited the title of this thread.

 

[pau]

No dead
No alive
No difference.
How wonderful!
Tell Iko-san immediately!

- Ban-Jo, Imperial Regent to 10th Century Zen Patriarchs.

 

[Intezam]

To make the confusion complete, let we add an Abracadabric viewpoint:

Then, are we not to die (?)
Except for (this) our first death (after this 0ne[1]ness comprehension ?),
and we will not be punished (...again, again & again)?"
Indeed, this is the great attainment.
For the like of this let the workers (on earth) work!

As Saffat (The Exalted Assembly)

Please do not quote this post (thank you)

 

[aruse]

Very cool to have some Qur'an added for balance, Thanks Intezam!

I have a confession though, that passage is difficult for me to get much out of, could you elaborate your interpretation, Intezam?

Tbh, I have a little difficulty with tatt's book too, though I can mostly follow the pages that are pictured.

Thanks tatt for sharing that sweet glimpse into your life with your grandfather.

Watching the dying does seem to bring the cycle full circle, we're born, we grow, we decay, we die. I like that but I try to look at it all as the same thing, or maybe more positively, like there is something gained, lol. We're born and we begin to distinguish ourselves as we learn to make choices, we choose to become strong and independent, all the while our bodies are already decaying and on the journey back to source but as soon as we notice this is happening we can again choose to grow (mentaly) by learning to ask for help when we need it (because we are never truly independent), and when we are actively dying and approaching death we can again choose to be open and accept our annihilation and choose what the Whole wants, to let go of our independence and rejoin ultimately with everything.

The cycle that I've tried to put into my own wording, though it may not be too original is, Choose and the Let Go. That is all we can ever do. I want to simplify it further into one word, like just being, but it's always to vague to be useful.

What I want to do though is say that death is just like life, maybe "L"ife. It's the "let go" part/relax/peace/integrate? that is also necessary for life, life, which it seems people want to only associate with choice/freedom/growth/increase/... ..at least in my culture.

I read an interesting passage in another book this morning about how our spiritual practices also go through cycles rather than on a straight line. It occurred to me that while it seems that our practice may slow or we loose track of what we're doing or motivation or even become overloaded on insight we Again have that opportunity to relax, have faith, and compassion for ourselves as things go "not so well." Awakening is not an acquiring but a discovery and acceptance of all that is already there, including "pain." It is the pain that gives us something to work on, to accept and to grow from. By accepting the suffering (as Buddhists call it) the actual majority of discomfort is gone, and then we are in that magic state of being, Awake and present. This last idea often makes me feel a bit queasy, to think and have to trust that the pain will subside and I will even grow by it if I look directly at it and with love. Truly death is a part of life, perhaps even the prize if it is done well.


I'm surprised Timothy Leary's book hasn't been mentioned, "The Psychedelic Experience," which is also a translation of the Tibetan Book of Dying but made for LSD use. The book has it's funky qualities but it also has a lot of good, simplified concepts.

 

[pau]

:thumb_up:

 

[aruse]

I know I had to re-look at the definition, A bardo is a transition, one with greater possibility of enlightenment. We go through bardos throughout life but Buddhists think the transition at death is one of the bigger opportunities. I guess that makes sense because death is one of the bigger mysteries and how we end up facing it likely (in my mind) has significant influence on how the pattern (of life) will continue after our body dies. Even w/o an afterlife (though I hear many religions argue for one) this pattern can be seen in the present, for example, if one dies well or not, or alone, or however it is, it is interpreted by the living and it will have an effect on them and how they die.

One of the big reasons death is hard to talk about is because it forces us to take a close look at how we are living and consider the effects on others and ourselves.

I've had a lot of death in my family over the past few years, I've even being noticing the friends of friends that have died and effected me even minorlly. I am also noticing that I am (did a while ago) entering middle age and I no longer feel quite as invincible as I once did. Death can come at Any time, and I haven't done, or even begun everything I wanted to yet.

I want to make death a friend that keeps me on track doing what I enjoy and not wasting because lazy isn't always so satisfying in the end.

What do I really enjoy though? I guess for the time being it will be that slightly vague idea of getting to know better my self and mind, and Self. Or as I like to call it, what is going on behind surface appearances because I've seen there is definitely weird patters worth investigating.

 

[pau]

"First you don't exist and then you're born and exist. Then later you exist but die and don't exist. So what's going on here ... exist ... don't exist? Get over it! Go beyond it!"
- Togden Sonam Lodro

 

[woody]

After reading on the part 'the humming, rolling, crackling' during the moment that death has the individual, the 'psychic resultants of the disintegrating process' - beautifully put and I mean... how uncanny?

It's been said by several people [i.e: R. E. Schultes being one person] that these experiences brought on by these specific compounds/plants [i.e: DMT] - the potential of them being necrotogens, dry-runs for death, not 'death itself' but the seconds leading up to - which DMT - in his opinion can paint in stark contrast very rapidly.

This thread made me revisit my translation and this passage is very pertinent to what you say. It's a familiar description and very similar to the advice given to people on here for letting go and accepting the experience for what it is without judgment.

"Alas, now as the intermediate state of reality arises before me,
Renouncing the merest sense of awe, terror or fear,
I must recognise all that arises to be awareness, manifesting
naturally of itself.
Knowing such sounds, lights and rays to be visionary
phenomena of the intermediate state,
At this moment, having reached this critical point,
I must not fear the assembly of peaceful and wrathful deities,
which manifest naturally!"


It was recently something that had been putting me off DMT for a while. The idea that if I am visiting these realms, should I be? But I like the theory that it acts as a teacher for us to prepare ourselves for when our time does come.

 

[○]

After reading on the part 'the humming, rolling, crackling' during the moment that death has the individual, the 'psychic resultants of the disintegrating process' - beautifully put and I mean... how uncanny?

It's been said by several people [i.e: R. E. Schultes being one person] that these experiences brought on by these specific compounds/plants [i.e: DMT] - the potential of them being necrotogens, dry-runs for death, not 'death itself' but the seconds leading up to - which DMT - in his opinion can paint in stark contrast very rapidly.

This thread made me revisit my translation and this passage is very pertinent to what you say. It's a familiar description and very similar to the advice given to people on here for letting go and accepting the experience for what it is without judgment.

"Alas, now as the intermediate state of reality arises before me,
Renouncing the merest sense of awe, terror or fear,
I must recognise all that arises to be awareness, manifesting
naturally of itself.
Knowing such sounds, lights and rays to be visionary
phenomena of the intermediate state,
At this moment, having reached this critical point,
I must not fear the assembly of peaceful and wrathful deities,
which manifest naturally!"


It was recently something that had been putting me off DMT for a while. The idea that if I am visiting these realms, should I be? But I like the theory that it acts as a teacher for us to prepare ourselves for when our time does come.

That passage is awesome, it's beautiful. The parallels always make me smile. Thanks for posting this woody

I agree on both your points at the end there. I remember T. Mckenna quoting someone years back in one of his lectures, mentioning DMT [and these other psychedelic compounds] as a 'gratuitous grace' - as it's not necessary nor sufficient for salvation. I liked that.


**Btw, I'm going to continue posting, just haven't picked up the book again, though I will here soon, and we can all continue to post and discuss.

 

[○]

"First you don't exist and then you're born and exist. Then later you exist but die and don't exist. So what's going on here ... exist ... don't exist? Get over it! Go beyond it!"
- Togden Sonam Lodro

:twisted:

 

[○]

I know I had to re-look at the definition, A bardo is a transition, one with greater possibility of enlightenment. We go through bardos throughout life but Buddhists think the transition at death is one of the bigger opportunities. I guess that makes sense because death is one of the bigger mysteries and how we end up facing it likely (in my mind) has significant influence on how the pattern (of life) will continue after our body dies. Even w/o an afterlife (though I hear many religions argue for one) this pattern can be seen in the present, for example, if one dies well or not, or alone, or however it is, it is interpreted by the living and it will have an effect on them and how they die.

One of the big reasons death is hard to talk about is because it forces us to take a close look at how we are living and consider the effects on others and ourselves.

I've had a lot of death in my family over the past few years, I've even being noticing the friends of friends that have died and effected me even minorlly. I am also noticing that I am (did a while ago) entering middle age and I no longer feel quite as invincible as I once did. Death can come at Any time, and I haven't done, or even begun everything I wanted to yet.

I want to make death a friend that keeps me on track doing what I enjoy and not wasting because lazy isn't always so satisfying in the end.

What do I really enjoy though? I guess for the time being it will be that slightly vague idea of getting to know better my self and mind, and Self. Or as I like to call it, what is going on behind surface appearances because I've seen there is definitely weird patters worth investigating.

A really beautiful passage there aruse, thank you!

And agreed, the term bardo need not only apply to the after death state/s, as they seem to also apply to - like you said - to the bardos of life; same as reincarnation and the death/rebirth - as it not only applies to after-death, but also in every perceivable moment of your own life - we are in every moment - in constant death and rebirth, ad infinitum, cyclical, dying, dying in every moment, being born again and again in every moment, no impediment, a continual/perpetual transformation. The whole hermetic axiom - "as above so below", imho applies beautifully here - meaning it's all beautifully interwoven - these things.

 

[○]

I'm not sure how many people have read this piece, though it talks about Steve Jobs last moments and words prior to and as he was dying. I found it interesting.

Details of his final moments came from his sister Mona Simpson, who has allowed the New York Times to publish the eulogy she delivered at his memorial service on 16 October. In it, she explains how she rushed to Jobs's bedside after he asked her to come to see him as soon as possible.

"His tone was affectionate, dear, loving, but like someone whose luggage was already strapped onto the vehicle, who was already on the beginning of his journey, even as he was sorry, truly deeply sorry, to be leaving us," she writes.

When she arrived, she found Jobs surrounded by his family – "he looked into his children's eyes as if he couldn't unlock his gaze," – and managing to hang on to consciousness she said.

However, he began to deteriorate. "His breathing changed. It became severe, deliberate, purposeful. I could feel him counting his steps again, pushing farther than before. This is what I learned: he was working at this, too. Death didn't happen to Steve, he achieved it."

After making it through one final night, wrote Simpson, her brother began to slip away. "His breath indicated an arduous journey, some steep path, altitude. He seemed to be climbing.

But with that will, that work ethic, that strength, there was also sweet Steve's capacity for wonderment, the artist's belief in the ideal, the still more beautiful later.

Steve's final words, hours earlier, were monosyllables, repeated three times.

Before embarking, he'd looked at his sister Patty, then for a long time at his children, then at his life's partner, Laurene, and then over their shoulders past them.

Steve's final words were: 'Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow.

 

[○]

a small passage..

 

[Reincarnated]

I will be reading this too. Was mentioned to me years ago by a friend but i never acted on his recommendation. Thanks for the uploading of the pdf. It feels like im more ready for it than before.

Edit. I just read the article about Steve Jobs. Very interesting indeed. Oh wow!

 

[pau]

:thumb_up:

 

[○]

A small quote I came across, by an unnamed person/s:

Why fear death?, if while we exist, she does not exist and when there is death, then, we do not exist

** I'll jump back in this thread soon with more pics and talk; working a bit more hours now and am going to have less time on here. Cheers

 

[Bancopuma]

Great topic and share, thank you. A few weekends ago I gave a talk titled "Dying to Live: Transcendental transformation through psychedelics, NDE’s and OBE’s" at Altered Conference in Berlin was fun and seem to go down well. This capacity of psychedelics to help prepare us for our inevitable dying is I think one of their more fascinating and important facets, especially given how much of a taboo death is in our western society and ill prepared many of us are for it. It is fairly common for people to die with existential distress, which is obviously horrible for them and their loved ones. But it really seems that psychedelics can banish or dramatically reduce this existential angst.

Just to chime in on a personal note, regarding 5-MeO-DMT. While of course I can never claim to know what death is like, my breakthrough experiences with this compound earlier this year I feel took me closer to what that experience may be like, than any other experience I've had. A breakthrough dose of 5-MeO-DMT is a death in a sense, at least a death of the ego. A study by a friend and a psychedelic researcher found that experiences of "death, rebirth and past lives" were more commonly reported in association with 5-MeO-DMT than any other substance.

As the experience may relate to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Stan Grof (and James Oroc) both had similar interpretations of the white light one enters seconds after inhaling the 5-MeO-DMT vapour. Here Grof describes his first breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT experience:

It had the brightness of myriad suns, yet it was not the same continuum with any light I knew from everyday life. It seemed to be pure consciousness, intelligence, and creative energy transcending all polarities. It was infinite and finite, divine and demonic, terrifying and ecstatic, creative and destructive – all that and much more. I had no concept, no categories for what I was witnessing. I could not maintain a sense of separate existence in the face of such a force. My ordinary identity was shattered and dissolved; I became one with the Source. In retrospect, I believe I must have experienced the Dharmakaya, the Primary Clear Light, which according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Bardo Thödol, appears at the moment of our death. It bore some resemblance to what I encountered in my first LSD session, but it was much more over whelming and completely extinguished any sense of my separate identity.

https://abzu2.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/when-the-impossible-happens-stanislav-grof/

 

[○]

Great topic and share, thank you. A few weekends ago I gave a talk titled "Dying to Live: Transcendental transformation through psychedelics, NDE’s and OBE’s" at Altered Conference in Berlin was fun and seem to go down well. This capacity of psychedelics to help prepare us for our inevitable dying is I think one of their more fascinating and important facets, especially given how much of a taboo death is in our western society and ill prepared many of us are for it. It is fairly common for people to die with existential distress, which is obviously horrible for them and their loved ones. But it really seems that psychedelics can banish or dramatically reduce this existential angst.

Just to chime in on a personal note, regarding 5-MeO-DMT. While of course I can never claim to know what death is like, my breakthrough experiences with this compound earlier this year I feel took me closer to what that experience may be like, than any other experience I've had. A breakthrough dose of 5-MeO-DMT is a death in a sense, at least a death of the ego. A study by a friend and a psychedelic researcher found that experiences of "death, rebirth and past lives" were more commonly reported in association with 5-MeO-DMT than any other substance.

As the experience may relate to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Stan Grof (and James Oroc) both had similar interpretations of the white light one enters seconds after inhaling the 5-MeO-DMT vapour. Here Grof describes his first breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT experience:

It had the brightness of myriad suns, yet it was not the same continuum with any light I knew from everyday life. It seemed to be pure consciousness, intelligence, and creative energy transcending all polarities. It was infinite and finite, divine and demonic, terrifying and ecstatic, creative and destructive – all that and much more. I had no concept, no categories for what I was witnessing. I could not maintain a sense of separate existence in the face of such a force. My ordinary identity was shattered and dissolved; I became one with the Source. In retrospect, I believe I must have experienced the Dharmakaya, the Primary Clear Light, which according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Bardo Thödol, appears at the moment of our death. It bore some resemblance to what I encountered in my first LSD session, but it was much more over whelming and completely extinguished any sense of my separate identity.

https://abzu2.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/when-the-impossible-happens-stanislav-grof/

Hey Banco thanks for chiming in with this. And yeah I watched your talk 'Dying to Live', good stuff, and I agreed on many points you'd brought up.

Yeah, Grofs experience that he describes, seems fairly removed from the NN experience. I've only had two incredibly life changing experience with NN [and this one I'm going to mention stands alone in the sheer power that I'd experienced], like incredibly incredibly powerful; I was completely gone from everyday consensus reality within 3-4 seconds from the time the entire dose had entered my lips]; I had no time to set the bong down, had no time for anything; and what Grof describes comes incredibly close to what had happened with me. I was immediately propelled into this forever expansive labyrinthine realm, felt like the 'ultimate summer camp that is forever', impossible brightness - an intense crystalline-brightness reflecting every possible color - in turn coming back in on itself to shine this impossible brilliance; impossible to word, though I ended up living hundreds of thousands, millions, billions of lives, or 'was living' all these simultaneously [everything kept expanding impossibly so, forever and ever and ever]; it was so incredibly fast, rapid [and this was with light harmala'd changa lol]; the music I had playing loudly was 'completely' gone, no more music at all; the experience was just too incredibly powerful. It left no question to me that this was me - I am death, I am birth, I am all these scenarios, people, places, 'God'? ..I am God, undeniably; as is everyone and everything; though being a human being I have a particular vantage point/lens to look through [a special set of eyes for The Infinite]. I was death , i was birth, I was the pain, the suffering, all the joys at all levels, the terrible, the beautiful, everything that makes Life..'Life' ...I was all of this and more. It was appalling, ecstatic, joyous, tooooo tooooo much, it was just enough, it was forever, I am forever. This experience didnt have entities, didn't have any of the typical ever-changing architecture that I'm typically propelled into - as with all my other dmt experiences of the past. This experience was NOTHING like any of those, not in the slightest whatsoever. I had for some reason on the day decided to start a timer - and after coming back and fully coming back into my body/life - I looked at the timer and it was around the 28 minute mark.

This, out've many many intense dmt experiences over the years - was the only one of its kind, and it wasn't even on the biggest dosage that I'd taken; so something special I felt happened that day. This is with me every single day - that experience. So funny after years of working with dmt I'd thought I had 'some sort' of grip on the intensity and what was possible - though that specific experience did it in for me in proving without a shadow of a doubt that this experience can get you to the clear light, though it didn't seem to be dosage dependent, or even 'method of delivery' dependent; but something had seemed to have lined up..

Sorry for the ramble, felt this was somewhat relevant to what you'd talked about above. I still have yet to try MeO, though when it comes it comes; and it'll surely happen.

As I'd mentioned earlier in this thread - Metzners term 'necrotogen' I feel is pretty fitting for what these compounds can do. Over the years its felt this way to me more and more as time's went on.

Despite this experience I'd had - I still enjoy discussing and talking about my own experiences, despite the monotony that can happen sometimes when discussing these things, in some sense.

Thanks again for posting Banco.

 

[aruse]

Fascinating stuff, Thanks Tatt and Bancopuma.

Since we can never really know what death is, best to prepare for it as much as possible. Much like having a baby, can never be prepared enough. But likely it will be a big event because I can't think of a bigger mystery. Therefor I like to think of it as a lesson on living. And all the weird patterns in life that I discover can likely/possibly continue after my body dies, and at least I will have a better life. The world just keeps on spinning.