Basic Chemistry

[acolon_5]

There have been quite a few questions about basic chemistry.

For instance what is a salt, acid, or base are. Same goes for terms like pH, pKa, weak acids, weak bases, conjugate acid/bases, titration, polar and non polar solvent, oxidation, reduction etc. etc.

We have some very knowledgeable folks here that are willing to help answer your, your friends, your friends pets, and my questions on the subject.

Please keep this thread on basic chemistry. Synthesis discussions are not allowed!! Any posts relating to or hinting at synthesis, precursors or the like will be edited and the poster will be given a warning.

 

[Infundibulum]

Hey, that exactly what I wrote in the end of my my post, hahaha. I just didn't want to complicate things too much, I gave however this method of how to do it the 100% right way.

But you're right. Only if you want a "true" precise 5% w/v you go this way.

 

[Entropymancer]

Woops, I missed that part, my bad.

 

[acolon_5]

1 more question.

Can HCL be dried?

what I mean by this is if one has 10% HCL solution and one wants to have anhydrous acetone/HCL solution, could the acetone + HCL be dried with MgSO4 or CaSO4? Can this be done seperately (I guess not) or once combined?

thanks Chem Guys!

 

[Infundibulum]

No.

HCl is actually a gas, dissolved in water. In that respect one cannot have 100% dry anhydrous solid HCl. I guess one could have a gas canister full of HCl gas but I have never heard of such a think. Maybe chemists would be more knowledgeable on that!

HCl can also be boiled off solutions, just like acetic acid.

 

[acolon_5]

No.

HCl is actually a gas, dissolved in water. In that respect one cannot have 100% dry anhydrous solid HCl. I guess one could have a gas canister full of HCl gas but I have never heard of such a think. Maybe chemists would be more knowledgeable on that!

HCl can also be boiled off solutions, just like acetic acid.

Right, not looking for 100% HCL gas. I get that HCL is a gas and 40% solution is about as concentrated as it can get.

However, I am trying to get HCL into acetone without much, if any water. I cannot bubble HCL gas through dry acetone, as I don't have the skill or technology to do so.

My question was if I mix, say 31-32% HCL with store bought acetone and I attempt to dry it with MgSO4 or CaSO4 will I be left with an HCL solution in acetone, without water.

 

[Infundibulum]

Again, my guess is that it wouldn't work.

However, the reasoning is fine, i.e. dissolve the 40% HCl in acetone, then dry it using magnesium suplhate so that one gets rid of the extra water and is left with 100% HCl dissolved in 100% acetone.

In practise it wouldn't work. As long as the water is absorbed from the magnesium sulphate (this would never happen for the reason I will describe below, but for the sake of argument let's say it can happen), the HCl won't be able to dissolve (or be accommodated) in the acetone and will escape out as a noxious gas.

The reason for the latter is that the solubility of a x substance in a solvent can be a slightly complicated issue. One needs to takes into account quite a few things into consideration. Fumaric acid, tartaric acid, malic acid, citric acid (all organic acids) etc. can dissolve in acetone but NOT with the same mechanism in which they dissolve in water. Salt, HCl, sodium carbonate etc dissolve in water with the same mechanism in which the above mentioned acids dissolve in water. However, fumaric acid, tartaric acid, malic acid, citric acid etc dissolve in acetone via a different mechanism very similar to the way dmt dissolves in acetone. But I would prefer to write a small explanation in a separate post to clarify this things out.

In reality, when one adds magnesium sulphate in the acetone-containing-HCl-dissolved-in-water, the magnesium sulphate will react with the HCl in this manner:

2HCl + MgSO4 -> H2SO4 + MgCl2

So, if one mixes everything as acolon states, he/she's going to end up with a solution containing:

1) sulphuric acid
2) magnesium chloride
3) traces of HCl (?)
4) Traces of MgSO4 (?)
5) Water that will dissolve all (or part) of the above
6) acetone

I would not personally use this complex crappy mixture in any way!

 

[acolon_5]

Damn. Oh well.

Thank you Infundibulum. You saved me from wasting some reagents!

 

[amor_fati]

SWIM was just wondering if it would be at all beneficial to introduce some new jargon to the forums. NPS is already a common one and SWIM has created a wiki for it, but SWIM was wondering whether we shouldn't start referring to aprotic polar solvent as APS and protic polar solvent as PPS and create a wiki for those as well.

First of all, a quick rundown:
NPS - Non-Polar Solvent (ie naphtha, xylene, and toulene)
-Most people on the forums are already quite familiar with it and it's properties.
PPS - Protic Polar Solvent (ie water, ethanol, and IPA)
-Most on the forums are fairly familiar with the idea and most of the solvents, but not with the proper classification.
-It wouldn't be too hard to introduce utilizing the wiki.
APS - Aprotic Polar Solvent (ie DCM and Acetone)
-This is the confusing one for most, as most think only in terms of polar and nonpolar and confuse these as nonpolar.
-It would probably be beneficial to refer to this with an emphasis the varying properties of this class of solvent and rely on the wiki for further explanation.

The wiki pages would of course refer to the common solvents that fall under these classifications. The idea is to make the learning process a bit more expedient.

Anyway, any thoughts on the matter?

 

[Otiliya]

ok ok so in this confusing dream we have DMT in a salt form inside mimosa - DMT tannate. If we add HCL solution to it, HCl will replace the tannate ions with chlorine ions, correct? And the reason for doing so is because DMT Chloride is more soluble in water than DMT tannate.
1. Why are doing this the acid part of A/B if DMT tannate is already a salt and not soluble in non-polar solvent?

 

[endlessness]

maybe because one's water, specially some from the tap, can be too basic and mess the efficiency.. Or also maybe because some people feel that different salts are more water soluble then others. But yes theoretically adding no acid at all should also work.. if you think about it, ayahuasca and jurema is many times used straight with the water and no addition of acid and it works.

 

[acolon_5]

if you think about it, ayahuasca and jurema is many times used straight with the water and no addition of acid and it works.

Quite true, but the volume of water used is proportionally larger than with a MHRB extraction. This may speak to the efficiency of a water only extraction. They are also using DMT containing leaf instead of root bark. I'm not positive but I bet that it is a lot easier to extract from a leaf than from root bark.

A strong acid speeds up extraction times and increases yields. We gotta break down those cell walls.

 

[Otiliya]

Then after the fats/oils have been pulled, what happens when you add base? There is DMT salt in an acidic solution(or aq solution if STB) with lye added to it. NaOH dissociates into Na+ and OH- right? How does DMT become freebase? I'm sorry i'm a little slow... Does Na take the Cl from the dmt salt(let's say it will be DMT chloride) and become NaCl? what about OH? i'm so confused

 

[Infundibulum]

Exactly. Sort of like:

DMT-Cl + NaOH ---> DMT(freebase) + NaCl + H2O

And the high enough pH will keep dmt from relapsing back to its salt form for reasons having to do with reaction equilibria. But please feel free to disregard this last info if it sounds too complicated.

 

[Otiliya]

oh, yeah i get it, that if it's really high pH it is harder for DMT become a salt again in small amounts. But where does the other H come from to make water? was it because DMT had a hydrochloride attached to it? You know how there are all these medications in salt formm with HCL attached. Last question, promise! Thanks!

 

[Infundibulum]

The dmt (just like any amine) needs to acquire a hydrogen in order to make it a salt. Ideally, one would write dmt-Cl as:

dmt-NH+Cl- ("+" and "-" are electrical charges). So the amine of dmt, the one that gets "dimethylated" and gives it its name, needs to acquire this hydrogen atom (or technically a "proton") to become positively charged and be able to associate with the negatively charged clorine atom.

And the freebase form would be written dmt-N

Just FIY, (mono)methyl tryptamine or NMT would be written as NMT-NH as freebase and as NMT-NH2+Cl- as its chloride salt.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Again, my guess is that it wouldn't work.

However, the reasoning is fine, i.e. dissolve the 40% HCl in acetone, then dry it using magnesium suplhate so that one gets rid of the extra water and is left with 100% HCl dissolved in 100% acetone.

In practise it wouldn't work. As long as the water is absorbed from the magnesium sulphate (this would never happen for the reason I will describe below, but for the sake of argument let's say it can happen), the HCl won't be able to dissolve (or be accommodated) in the acetone and will escape out as a noxious gas.

The reason for the latter is that the solubility of a x substance in a solvent can be a slightly complicated issue. One needs to takes into account quite a few things into consideration. Fumaric acid, tartaric acid, malic acid, citric acid (all organic acids) etc. can dissolve in acetone but NOT with the same mechanism in which they dissolve in water. Salt, HCl, sodium carbonate etc dissolve in water with the same mechanism in which the above mentioned acids dissolve in water. However, fumaric acid, tartaric acid, malic acid, citric acid etc dissolve in acetone via a different mechanism very similar to the way dmt dissolves in acetone. But I would prefer to write a small explanation in a separate post to clarify this things out.

In reality, when one adds magnesium sulphate in the acetone-containing-HCl-dissolved-in-water, the magnesium sulphate will react with the HCl in this manner:THIS WAS OFTEN USED FOR

2HCl + MgSO4 -> H2SO4 + MgCl2

So, if one mixes everything as acolon states, he/she's going to end up with a solution containing:

1) sulphuric acid
2) magnesium chloride
3) traces of HCl (?)
4) Traces of MgSO4 (?)
5) Water that will dissolve all (or part) of the above
6) acetone

I would not personally use this complex crappy mixture in any way!

A couple of points spring to mind here:

1. HCl is soluble in other liquids besides water, eg diethyl ether (see PIHKAL/TIHKAL - this was often used for preparing the HCl salts of the tryptamines and PEAs described therein), acetone, although I don't know how much. Maybe a little, maybe a lot. Gaseous HCl can be released from concentrated hydrochloric acid by dripping it onto anhydrous calcium chloride (eg moisture control granules), then dried by passing through a tube containing more anhydrous calcium chloride, then bubbled through the solvent of choice.
Disclaimer: THIS PROCEDURE IS DANGEROUS AND SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED BY ANYONE EXCEPT COMPETENT CHEMISTS IN A PROPER LABORATORY ENVIRONMENT WITH THE CORRECT EQUIPMENT! IF YOU HAVE TO ASK HOW TO GET HCl IN ANHYDROUS ACETONE THEN YOU CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T BE DOING THIS! 100mL of 40% hydrochloric acid will release about 25L of HCl gas :evil: (by my estimation).

(For informational purposes only. If this is against the rules, PM me and I'll edit!)

2. 2HCl + MgSO4 -> H2SO4 + MgCl2 - not so. In fact, H2SO4 + MgCl2 -> MgSO4 + 2HCl, generally speaking. This is mostly due to the greater volatility of HCl.

The problem here would be the amount of MgSO4 needed to soak up the water from the hydrochloric acid and its solubility in aqueous acetone. Yes, it would probably be a mess. Also the acetone might start to react with itself and form diacetone alcohol, via aldol condensation.

 

[Barmaley]

What happens when an alkaloid salt reacts with ammonia?
aCL + H2O + NH3 ===> :x
Ammonia will act as a base when mixed with water correct? so there will be:
alkaloid CL + H2O + NH3 ===> (NH4+) + (OH-) + alkaloid CL

Then what

 

[Infundibulum]

What happens when an alkaloid salt reacts with ammonia?
aCL + H2O + NH3 ===> :x
Ammonia will act as a base when mixed with water correct? so there will be:
alkaloid CL + H2O + NH3 ===> (NH4+) + (OH-) + alkaloid CL

Then what

that's almost correct;

The salted alkaloid, say aCL (where I presume "a" is for the alkaloid and "CL" is for chlorine) will react with ammonia in this way:

aCL + NH3 ----> A and NH4Cl (ammonium chloride).

This is quite simplistic; if you want a more complicated breakdown of what is happening then:

1) the alkaloid will dissolve in the water:
aCL --> a+ + Cl-

2) Ammonia will dissolve in water:
NH3 + H2O <--> NH4+ + OH-

3) Ammonium (NH4+) will be able to "bind" with Cl- to form ammonium chloride.

But note that in the water everything is dissociated. Effectively one will have a mixture of NH4+, Cl-, a+ and of course the ubiquitous OH- and H+.

All of the above would happen in an acidic to around neutral, maybe slightly basic pH. At a higher pH (just in the case much more NH3 would be added), the alkaloid would be freebased, and one would have a mixture of NH4+, Cl-, a(freebased) loads of OH- and very little of H+

Hope that helps!

 

[HappyCamper]

I need some help with mole concept. I'm working in this book and I can't figure something out.http://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Concepts-Problems-Self-Teaching-Guides/dp/0471121207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245254043&sr=8-1
I'll quote the problem
"In the balanced reaction Zn + 2HCL -->H2 + Zn Cl2, when zinc metal reacts with hydrochloric acid, hydrogen gas and zinc chloride are the products. How many moles of HCl are needed to produce 1 mole of ZnCl2?" According to the book the answer is 2. I have no idea where that number comes from. The grams just don't add up

 

[SWIMfriend]

I need some help with mole concept. I'm working in this book and I can't figure something out.http://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Concepts-Problems-Self-Teaching-Guides/dp/0471121207/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245254043&sr=8-1
I'll quote the problem
"In the balanced reaction Zn + 2HCL -->H2 + Zn Cl2, when zinc metal reacts with hydrochloric acid, hydrogen gas and zinc chloride are the products. How many moles of HCl are needed to produce 1 mole of ZnCl2?" According to the book the answer is 2. I have no idea where that number comes from. The grams just don't add up

Number of atoms on each side of the equation has to be the same. Since zinc chloride has two chlorides, and molecular hydrogen has 2 hydrogens, you have to have two H and two CL on the left side; you get that by having 2HCL, thus 2 moles of hydrochloric acid.

In some really complicated reaction equations it can be a bit tricky to figure out the number of moles of each constituent. This one is simple.