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basifying step before manske in harmalas extractions

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Para

Para

Rising Star
I quite don't understand, theoretically, the need for basifying step (with lye or sodium carbonate, doesn't matter) before the Manske from these two harmalas teks:
Harmalas Extraction and Separation Guide
The Tao of Rue Extraction

It serves the same purpose as the next step manske to make harmalas solids so they can be filtered out of the solution.
The above teks recommends repeating several times:
basifying
filter
acidify
filter
salting
filter
redissolve

to further purify the harmalas.

Why not only
salting - filter - disolve - filter several times
?

This will also work if you don't care about vasicine
basifying - filter -acidify - filter several times

So, why combine basifying with manske in the early steps of those teks?
 
It doesn't matter, really, once you get familiar with how it all works it can be tailored to personal preference. The last time I extracted rue I didn't use salt at all and it worked out very well. You just need to figure out what works for you. Don't make it complicated.

After you acidify, filter the hell out of it.

When in basic solution, rinse and decant until the liquid is clear. No need to mess with a filter until after the last wash. When it's in the filter, you can rinse again with a little water to get rid of whatever base might remain.

When basing, if your solution still appears yellowish, and glows bright with a UV light, you may need to add more base or give it more time. The crystalizing happens very fast at first, easy to see, but towards the end it may still be crystalizing it just isn't so obvious. I always add a little extra base to be safe. After a second acidifying base crystals, the liquid should be getting fairly clear and not so yellowish. It may get cloudy and more yellow the closer you get to pH 7, this would be the time to stop and filter or go straight to acid. I don't bother filtering if I am going back to acidify and filter again.

If using salt, make sure you are adding salt to an acidified solution.

An extraction can be done without any salt at all, or without any base at all, but you must do one or the other to make it crystalize. You can do any combination of salting or basing to make crystals, just don't do both on the same extract or you will get beacoup contamination.

Hope this helps!

Damon
 
The reason to base before manske (Specially with lye), is because you already eliminate a lot of gunk in the beginning, and makes filtering later on much easier.. If you go straight for manske, it works fine, ive done it many times, but do expect some long filtering.... :)
 
endlessness said:
The reason to base before manske (Specially with lye), is because you already eliminate a lot of gunk in the beginning, and makes filtering later on much easier.. If you go straight for manske, it works fine, ive done it many times, but do expect some long filtering.... :)
Click to expand...

if it's only to easy the filtering, isn't enough to basify only once and repeat only manske several times to further purify?
 
Yeah but you'll need more times of re-manskeing to clean up ime.

To manske, redissolve, filter and remanske, does clean up some impurities to some extent, and at the same time, to base, redissolve, filter and re-base also cleans up some (somewhat different) impurities than manskeing. In my experience, it appears that alternating between both forms of precipitation cleans it up at a faster pace than if you just repeat one of the ways.

That doesnt mean you should do like I do, of course, if you preffer to just manske or want to experiment with different ways, do it, and let us know how it goes :)
 
basifying and manske each cleaning up somewhat different impurities makes sense,
thanks endlessness.

I'm reading all harmalas extractions trying to understand the principles behind all operations.
It's easier this way for me to do an extraction afterwards.

I think I'll end the extraction with a manske to get harmalas salts,
because I'll use them sublingual or orally.
 
I've been doing a test run for a few days and yes, I think a lot of junk was washed away by this first basification, the solution above the sunken freebase was very dark.

I dissolved the decanted freebase with dilute phosphoric acid and upon heating, a lot of dark junk crashed out, which was very easy to filter out!
I started a thread a few days ago with pictures of the result of Manskeing that.

I'm going straight away for separating harmine and harmaline with NaHCO3, first tests are promising! The harmine seems to come out darker than the harmaline.

Good luck, I think extracting Rue is great fun!
 
good to know, I don't want to repeat the nightmare when I tried to filter mimosa powder :lol:
I decanted over night in the fridge and now I'm filtering with coffee filters
 
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