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Biosynthesis of Novel Tryptamines Aspirations.

Migrated topic.
I have no means of analysing the chemical content of mushrooms,
so I won't be able to tell wether it worked and what chemical came out.

I could test for activity and compair the effects to those of psilocin/
psilocybin mushrooms, but then I must first make sure psilocyn & psilocybin
can not be present in the mushrooms at all..

I suppose this would mean totally excluding any tryptamine & tryptophan from
the substrate before innoculation. Making sure the mushrooms can only feed
on whatever Tryptamine one wishes to add to the substrate.

I guess most regulair growth mediums are quite rich in Tryptamine & Tryptophan then?
Brown Rice Flower & Straw (could it be present in cow/horse- crap too?)


Can anyone here help me with that? I'll need a growth medium that feeds mushrooms
well, yet is completely void of Tryptamine & Tryptophan. Anyone?
 
SKA said:
Yes indeed Shulgin continues on the next page about how DMT is made in plants/fungi and the role of decarboxylases & N-methyl-transferases.
He mentions how Tryptophane is decarboxylated to produce Tryptamine, which in turn is converted by methylation into DMT.

I assume mushrooms produce DMT in the same way, except that they proceed to hydroxylate the DMT at the 4 position, creating psilocin.
So for psilocin-rich magic mushrooms you'd need a Tryptophan-rich substrate. Correct?

Does anyone have more specific information on the biosynthetic enzymatic steps/processes Psilocybe mushrooms use to produce Psilocin?
Click to expand...

The question is...do substrates typically contain an effective amount of tryptophan? Wouldnt it simply produce mushrooms as potent as they could be? IME, they can vary quite a bit, probably also due to genetics. I wish all cubes were like the strongest ones I've had!
 
The Tryptophan/Tryptamine content of the substrate could vary too. But Tryptophan and/or Tryptamine
must be present in substrates or mushrooms could never make psilocin.

After the initial absorption of Tryptamine and/or absorption & decarboxylation of Tryptophan
the following enzymatic Methylation, Hydroxylation & Phosphorylation -steps might not follow
1 fixed order as this article suggests: http://countyourculture.com/2011/12/05/grid-biosynthesis-psilocybin/

It would also account for the presence of Baeocystin & Norbaeocystin in Mushrooms.
As to why DMT & NMT have never been found in mushrooms; Could be that DMT & NMT
are metabolised too quickly, too constantly to ever be present in detectable amounts.

Has anyone here ever done a chemical analysis of the content of Psilocybin Mushrooms?
I understand some Nexians have access to Gas chromatograph collumns and other analysing
tools. Who knows; You just may find DMT and NMT afterall, if only in tiny trace amounts.
 
well, regarding this tryptophan idea...
I know it seems intuitive that adding it to the substrate may be a good idea,
but in all actuality, the mushrooms are genetically predisposed to make most of their own
tryptophan from indole and serine, similar to plants. so either supplementing with indole or tryptamine, an immediate product of tryptophan metabolism (getting to tryptamine from tryptophan is what requires a lot of energy, so supplementing with tryptophan is actually counterproductive) would be more effective in theory.
 
I'm still wondering what the main starting compound is that magic mushrooms
biosynthesize Psilocin & Psilocybin from.
In nature they grow on Cow/Horse manure. Does this contain tryptamines?

Magic Mushrooms are known to grow very well & potent on substrates of
brown Rice flower & Straw(+Vermiculite or Perlite).
TIHKAL mentions Melatonin, a Tryptamine, to be present in both
common Rice(Oryza Sativa) & Barley(Hordeum vulgare) which' dried
stems & leaves are known & sold as "Straw".

Could Melatonin be the starting point for Psilocybin Mushrooms?
How stable is Melatonin as a molecule?
Whatever tryptamine-compounds in Rice flower & Straw
Mushrooms use to make Psilocin, it should be a stable
compound that cannot be degraded further by heat, light &
exposure to the elements.

Is Tryptophan stable? Does anyone know what's the most stable
molecule of all the natural, abundantly occuring Tryptamines?
After exposure to sunlight, air & prolonged heat during the
sterilisation of the substrate in the oven or pressure cooker,
what Tryptamine compound would be stable enough to remain in
that substrate?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Similairly I've been wondering what Phenethylamine precursor
are present in regulair cactus soil. What would the starting
material be for Peyote & San Pedro cacti to synth Mescaline
from? I've read San Pedros can even root and grow well in
100% sand or 100% perlite soil, but I wonder if they'll
contain any Mescaline.

I wonder if Cacti can be fed any unnatural starting-material
to create an unnatural endproduct.
If a san pedro, potted in a 100% sand-soil was given water
with 2C-B or 2C-C dissolved into it, would the San Pedro
be able to synthesize unnatural analogues of Mescaline?

Please share any information on Mescaline Biosynthesis in
Cacti that you know of.
 
SKA said:
Could Melatonin be the starting point for Psilocybin Mushrooms?
Click to expand...

no.
melatonin isn't a product of tryptopham metabolism in psilocybe mushrooms, and it's one of the end products of mammalian tryptophan metabolism. some species (ex. panaeolus cyanescens)
can produce serotonin. psilocybin mushrooms produce their own tryptophan, the starting compound for tryptamine synthesis, from chorismate.

Is Tryptophan stable?
Click to expand...
no.
tryptophan is susceptible to oxidation, it should be stored in the dark, with no exposure to air
 
I guess this should be another, not to complicated, interresting experiment:

A.Shulgin said:
Jochen Gartz, a mushroom explorer whom I know quite well, has done some fascinating studies with Psilocybe species by raising them on solid media containing strange tryptamines that are alien to the mushroom. Apparently the enzymes that are responsible for the 4-hydroxy group of psilocin are indifferent to what it is they choose to 4-hydroxylate. He has taken things like DPT or DIPT and put them in the growth media and the fruiting bodies that came out contain 4-hydroxy-DPT or 4-hydroxy-DIPT instead of psilocin. In fact, he has a patent on the process. These active compounds are made by the mushroom so they really are natural and yet they never have been observed in nature. I'll give you even odds that if you put spores of a psilocybe species on cow droppings loaded with 5-MeO-DMT you would come out with mushrooms containing 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT. This way you avoid a 10 step synthesis by growing a psychoactive mushroom that contains no illegal drug.
Click to expand...
 
I guess this should be another, not to complicated, interresting experiment:

A.Shulgin wrote:
Jochen Gartz, a mushroom explorer whom I know quite well, has done some fascinating studies with Psilocybe species by raising them on solid media containing strange tryptamines that are alien to the mushroom. Apparently the enzymes that are responsible for the 4-hydroxy group of psilocin are indifferent to what it is they choose to 4-hydroxylate. He has taken things like DPT or DIPT and put them in the growth media and the fruiting bodies that came out contain 4-hydroxy-DPT or 4-hydroxy-DIPT instead of psilocin. In fact, he has a patent on the process. These active compounds are made by the mushroom so they really are natural and yet they never have been observed in nature. I'll give you even odds that if you put spores of a psilocybe species on cow droppings loaded with 5-MeO-DMT you would come out with mushrooms containing 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT. This way you avoid a 10 step synthesis by growing a psychoactive mushroom that contains no illegal drug.
Click to expand...
Has anyone else tried this experiment?! That sounds extremely fantastic!
 
Godly said:
A.Shulgin wrote:
I'll give you even odds that if you put spores of a psilocybe species on cow droppings loaded with 5-MeO-DMT you would come out with mushrooms containing 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT.
Click to expand...


I can't imagine having a 3-4 hours jorney with 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT!!! It'll be too much for me to handle. And DIPT is just kind of boring for me.

On the other hand, Do you guys think that if you load your spores with DMT would that make a more potent strain? Or it wouldn't make a difference? And finally, would you load your spores with freebased DMT, or DMT fumare?

I'm asking this because I'm going to cultivate some ecuador cubensis next week.

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Too bad 5-Meo-DMT is difficult to extract from plants into a pure form. Anyone with access
to reasonably pure 5-MeO-DMT, feel free to do this experiment. Shooting for 4,5-HO-MeO-DMT
containing mushrooms seems totally worth the risk of wasting some 5-MeO-DMT.

I'm still wondering what magic mushroom mycelia can make of Melatonin (N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine.)
That is the first experiment on my agenda;

Extract some Melatonin from OTC Melatonin pills, add that to a mushroom substrate & grow mushrooms on
it. If anyone here has chemical analytical instruments/skills then please do this experiment & analyse
the chemical components of the resulting mushrooms.
 
Discussing something very similar on Nexus thread here. Could we extract the enzymes in, e.g., phalaris, and use them for syntheses?
 
benzyme said:
if only it was that simple..
Click to expand...
Benzyme, browsing through the threads I really appreciate what you bring the table, so if/when you get a chance, please reply to the post I linked with elaborations. I don't know a thing, but the literature I was looking at, while it doesn't suggest it is that simple, would seem to suggest that it is simple enough. This is precisely what I want to understand.

Also, regarding your signature, have you ever read this one: "If there is no truth, then nothing at all is permitted"?
 
everything is permitted within the laws of thermodynamics. would you not agree?

Extracting, purifying, and expressing specialized enzymes is not a cost-effective way of doing things outside of a well-funded lab. You'd need an assortment of buffers, affinity chromatography supplies, an electrophoresis rig, not to mention other solvents and reagents such as absolute ethanol, CaCl2, and equipment for characterization. On paper, it looks somewhat straightforward, but enzymes are tricky to work with; they don't always give you the results you'd expect.
 
HI,

Swim is hobbying around with the mush's.

Last time when SWIM was extracting Harmine and had a lot of Harmaline left. He decided to add that to the mushroom substrate to see what happens. Nice thing is, that the substrate is now very shiny green under the UV. This would make it at least possible to see wether it is being metabolized if that fluoresence dissappears after some time (unless it is metaboilized in something that is fluorenscent green as well) even in the kitchen.

SWIM was following this post and tried to understand the biosynthesis of psilocybin a bit and has some vague idea of what it could become. This is not really my field though.

Does anybody has a view on this and the possible outcomes?

Also SWIM has acces to HPLC so SWIM could check and compare to either a simular mushflush with the same substrate without Harmaline and analyze the end result of both the fruiting bodies. It should be possible to see if some new compound was created and if Harmailne is still there and how much, but SWIM has no clue how to determine what that is then with his equipment.

SWIM will post his results asap. Would be nice to have some inspirational idea from the community.

Grtz
 
I am not good at chemistry but i know magic mushrooms and have had that hobby for quite a while.
The idea of adding stuff into the growing substrate like Phalaris grass or tryphtophan does NOT work.
There must be something more to it.
This idea is constantly discussed at the mushroom sites and has been tried more than 1000 times.
There are a few reports that say it works but they are wrong.
If it would have worked all would have used this method by now.
 
Bump! :)


Soon I will grow my own mushrooms. Cubensis "Pes amazonian".
Now each flush I intend to collect & preserve some spores for
later Jochen Gartz-like experiments.

There are some tryptamines/tryptamine sources easily availabe to me and they seem
like a perfect starting point.
5-MeO-DMT & 5-HO-DMT(From Yopo or Cebil seeds) & Melatonin.

Experiment 1:
-Make substrate from about 20 Yopo or Cebil seeds, Vermiculite & Perlite.
-Add (tryptamine-less) mushroom nutrients to ensure that the mycelium will grow.
-Innoculate and wait for mycelium to have colonised the entire substrate, then place in
terrarium and await mushrooms.

Would these mushrooms create 4-ho & 4-po analogues of 5-MeO-DMT & 5-HO-DMT? And if so what would these
molecules be? I'm hoping to find out.


Experiment 2:
-Make substrate of extracted Melatonin(from pills), Vermiculite & Perlite.
-Add mushroom nutrients.....
" etc etc etc ""

Would mushrooms growing from this create 4-HO & 4-PO analogues of Melatonin?( N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine)
And if so what molecule would that, chemically speaking, be?
 
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