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Bitcoin

Migrated topic.
You should all not forget, that it will get harder and harder to mine as difficulty increases. Just something to factor into your investment.

Also a nice interview ...especially @2:50 "Buttcoins" lol
 
obliguhl said:
You should all not forget, that it will get harder and harder to mine as difficulty increases. Just something to factor into your investment.
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Absolutely. Also that unknown - what if a 'quantum computer' or something of the sort comes out, rendering your 'lastest and greatest' hardware useless...

Moore's Law prevails! :twisted:
 
a1pha said:
The Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) is a world-wide standard for encryption on the net. If you notice the security certificate at the top of this page, it reads "AES_128_CBC" as the encryption method used to secure data between your computer and the Nexus Server in its datacenter somewhere. Every packet between the two computers is secure because of this encryption...
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That much I knew, but thanks for the links. Will check yhem out.

But then you go on to say:

My understanding of 'mining for bitcoins' involves dedicating computer resources to solve equations of ever-increasing complexity of ssl encryption required to break standards like AES128/256/...
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So your trading an anonymous currency for the privacy of encrypted data traffic (eventually)? Is that worth it? and more importantly: if all of us here are reaping the benefits of these encrytion methods on a daily basis, could you explain to me why we should aid in cracking these systems?

I'm sorry if I'm being a spoilsport, but what you said hasn't released me from my doubts. But I will read more into it, starting with the links you graciously provided.
 
a1pha said:
۩ said:
Currently mining @ 292mhash with ATI 5850 overclocked. .25 btc generated in the past hour or so. I will update with more info later.
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Okay now I'm confused. My 2x 4-core AMD Opteron running 8 concurrent threads is averaging 2.5 Mhash/s per thread for a total of ~20 Mhash/s. :cry:

How in the world can a ~$300 consumer-level graphic card pump out almost 300 Mhash/s? The $2,000+ Telsa card clocks just under 100 Mhash/s...

What's the important variable here?
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Current graphic cards like the ones from ATI(AMD) and NVidia are massive parallel systems. They consist of multiple cores that can work parallel. NVidia calls their cores 'cuda cores' and ATI calls them 'stream processors'.

The cuda cores (which are also used inside the Tesla cards) are full cores, meaning each core can do all type of calculations. The cores from ATI however are special, each cores is made up of a certain amount of subcores, the 69xx generation has 4 subcores and the generations before that have 5 subcores. Complex calculations require all the subcores to work together to do the calculation. However, when simple calculations are used then each subcore can do their own calculations in parallel.

My guess is that the calculations for Bitcoin generation use simple calculations. With these simple calculations the amount of work that can be done by the ATI cards is suddenly multiplied by 5 (or 4 for the 69xx generation), hence the awesome power for Bitcoin calculation of the ATI cards.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
bitcoins get value because people want them and agree that they will accept coins for other things such as goods (merchants that accept bitcoin are on a list on the bitcoin site) or dollars. its the same as gold. gold is only a metal but people want it and other people will give money or items for it so it has 'value'. if tomorrow everyone decided that gold wasn't really that neat it would go down in value, same as bitcoins. they are just an object that some people have decided they value.

mining adds bitcoins to the economy by rewarding people who devote energy to the bitcoin system. if you are buying processors to mine then you have an investment into the bitcoin system and are going to value your coins and probably help to try to get more merchants to accept the coins so you can spend them if you want to. bitcoins seem not too useful yet because they aren't universally accepted now.

this link might be helpful Myths - Bitcoin Wiki
 
The Traveler said:
Current graphic cards like the ones from ATI(AMD) and NVidia are massive parallel systems. They consist of multiple cores that can work parallel. NVidia calls their cores 'cuda cores' and ATI calls them 'stream processors'.
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I helped develop Molecular Dynamics Simulations for the Nvidia core a couple of years ago. The real performance comes from the cards ability to wicked fast matrices math.

There is also a research group that linked together a ton of PS3's and did a similar think that we did.

Intel is very scared of Nvidia right now.
 
Pebble on the Beach said:
So your trading an anonymous currency for the privacy of encrypted data traffic (eventually)? Is that worth it? and more importantly: if all of us here are reaping the benefits of these encrytion methods on a daily basis, could you explain to me why we should aid in cracking these systems?
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Again, I'm new to this and learning it myself. I only have background using various keys for encryption on the net. However, (someone correct me if I'm wrong) there's ever increasing value in the ability to 'crack' cryptographic keys by solving increasingly complex equations. By 'cracking' the key, you prove its integrity - giving it value for anyone who relies on that security. From the 'Myths' [1] link above:

en.bitcoin.it said:
It is not correct to say that Bitcoin is backed by CPU power. A currency being "backed" by something means that it is pegged to something else via a central party at a certain exchange rate. You cannot exchange bitcoins for the computing power that was used to create them. Bitcoin is in this sense not backed by anything. It is a commodity in its own right. Similar to gold - is gold backed by anything? No! It's just gold. Same thing with bitcoin.

The Bitcoin currency is created via processing power, and the integrity of the block chain is protected by the existence of a large network of computing nodes from certain possible attacks. And that is all.
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One problem (of a few) I see is the unknown timing of the 'quantum computer' - something designed specifically to break cryptographic keys. All this time validating the integrity of the key and bam - the key is easily broken by a single machine. But Moore's Law would suggest a new form of keys with again ever increasing complexity, and so on and so forth.

Form the 'Myths' page again:

en.bitcoin.it said:
Yes, but quantum computers don't yet exist and probably won't for a while. Bitcoin's security can be upgraded if this were considered an imminent threat.
See the implications of quantum computers on public key cryptography here Quantum computing - Wikipedia
The risk of quantum computers is also there for financial institutions, like banks, because they heavily rely on cryptography when doing transactions.
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EDIT: BTW, I've generated a whole 0.03931843 BTC in 24 hours with my 8-core machine! :oops: :roll: :cry:
 
I wasn't implying that that bitcoin was backed by the cpu power, but that the harnessed cpu power in itself could be chopped up and sold for various applications. But thats pure speculation on my part and I'm not that well informed on the bitcoin concept.

As stated before I will read up on this and for the time being suspend my preconceived notions on the matter.

Again, thanks for the additional links.

PotB
 
So, are you people working for the NSA now? ;) Can't say I understand much what you're talking about. Maybe I should just shut my mouth :p
 
geekgasm ftw. I'm stable at 320 mhash/s and have already generated over 1.5btc

Tip for miners: You can keep the memory clock low (300 for example) and you will use less power and your gpu will stay cooler. I keep mine at around 600 because any lower and I get minor screen flashing occasionally.
 
For those of you looking to set up a mining rig, I think I've found the best bang for the buck. Traveler knows his hardware, so maybe he can chime in.

I purchased the Diamond ATI Radeon HD 6950 for ~$290. I upgraded the BIOS of the card to the 6970 following these directions.

I'm getting a stable 370 MH/s using an old motherboard with the GPU clocked to 920, the memory at 1300, using gpuminer and the fan set at 70%.

The HD 5870 is about $520. and runs around 400 MH/s. The HD 5970 is about $800. and runs around 600 MH/s.{1}

$290. for 370 MH/s seems to be the best value for a 1-card system.
 
Is it profitable to mine? Lets look at the situation:

We have had a huge surge of big press articles, luring people into mining and investing because "Bitcoin is rising steadily".
What people do not realize, is that a small investor cannot compete against early adopters who hor hundred thousands of bitcoins, millions of bitcoins. They just have to cash in a tiny bit of their wealth to "steal" from small investors and miners. People look at the current BTC value as a display of real value. It is not. It's determined by one speculation: That the early adopters won't cash in at this point. Fot BTC to have real value, people would need to exchange money for btcs to buy stuff. But instead, tons of coins are just sitting in their owners account which is rather pointless because in the end it's a game most people can not win shortterm.

Some people say, that Bitcoin Mining will become unfprofitable because of more and more mining competition. Some say, that coins value will rise as difficulty increases..some say, that people will stopp mining as it gets unprofitable, therefore increasing the value. What is true?

One thing i think is certain: People won't stop mining just because it is not "profitable". Lots of kids and golddiggers are currently building mining rigs even though the gold rush is over. All it takes is one crash and miners will get very scared..they will continue to mine to recoup at least a bit of their investment, mining from their parents basements without paying electricity. 170$ for a graphics adapter can be a lot for a teen boy sitting on a chunk of worthless coins. But Bitcoins on the rise, right ?

As more and more bitcoins get discovered, it gets harder and harder to mine because there are only 21 Million coins to be discovered. But value won'T increase because people keep digging, keep hording in the illusion of paying back their cards or just because even a couple of bucks are better than nothing. Value also won'T increase because of early adopters cashing in from time to time. So in short term, we have a bumpy road with high spikes...ups and downs ahead of us.

In the long term, BTCs will have value. Real value. But I'm talking 10 years not 10 months. Keep your eydes open for real businesses accepting bitcoins as this really increases value. Not speculations.

In the short term i guess, you can only make big money by playing the market with a huge amount of money.
Mining is inherently risky....but - oh so tempting!
 
a1pha said:
For those of you looking to set up a mining rig, I think I've found the best bang for the buck. Traveler knows his hardware, so maybe he can chime in.

I purchased the Diamond ATI Radeon HD 6950 for ~$290. I upgraded the BIOS of the card to the 6970 following these directions.

I'm getting a stable 370 MH/s using an old motherboard with the GPU clocked to 920, the memory at 1300, using gpuminer and the fan set at 70%.

The HD 5870 is about $520. and runs around 400 MH/s. The HD 5970 is about $800. and runs around 600 MH/s.{1}

$290. for 370 MH/s seems to be the best value for a 1-card system.
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I think the HD5870 is the best bang for the buck, the one you linked to is an Eyefinity edition that is meant for connecting up to 6 displays at the same time, it also had extra memory for it, hence the huge price. The HD5870 I newly bought yesterday was only 160 euro (230 dollar). The only thing with the HD5870 is that it's getting hard to find them new since they are at End Of Life, meaning they are not manufactured anymore. Then again, second hand you should be able to grab these things for a nice price.

Remember to downclock your GPU memory (with ATI HD5xxx cards to 300) to safe some energy and prevent heat building up on the card. The bitcoin calculations are not using the memory speed so a low clock will not hurt your calculations.

What I also did with my mining rig is downclocking the CPU and the memory, again to safe energy and heat building up inside the casing.


I still have to find my energy meter to see how much my rig is consuming. I want to see at what clock my card have the best mhash/watt.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
Not Sure said:
Anyone read about the drop?

Digital black friday
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Yes, yesterday in the chat I was enjoying the crach of the Bitcoin market. Then again, it had risen so fast in the last couple of weeks that I was already wondering how long it would be before major player could not withstand the urge to cash in some of their bitcoins.

I think it's wonderful to see how this open market currency is working out, it's very intriguing at least.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
The Traveler said:
The only thing with the HD5870 is that it's getting hard to find them new since they are at End Of Life, meaning they are not manufactured anymore. Then again, second hand you should be able to grab these things for a nice price.
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This was my problem. I can't seem to find any here in the states. I think I'll keep the 6959 for my single GPU rig and watch eBay for a couple second hand 5870s. The only way I could get up and running with any sort of decent hash rate was to mod the 6950 into a 6970.

Are you aware of any future cards coming to market which might be worth the wait, or just snag the 5870s when I can?

Also, what are you using to under clock the memory on the card? CCC limits the min memory clock on mine to 1200 and I think house said he was in the 500/600 range.

Thanks for the input Traveler.
 
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