Boosting psychoactive effects of chocolate with MAOI?

[SpartanII]

Chocolate contains a few potentially psychoactive compounds such as phenethylamine and Anandamide (an endogenous cannabinoid), among others.

So as I was sipping my delicious home-made hot cocoa, browsing wiki, I read this:

In the early 1980s, researcher Michael Liebowitz, author of the popular 1983 book The Chemistry of Love, remarked to reporters that "chocolate is loaded with PEA." This became the focus for an article in The New York Times, which was then taken up by the wire services and then by magazine free-lancers, evolving into the now-eponymous "chocolate theory of love."[13] However, as noted earlier, phenethylamine is rapidly metabolized by the enzyme MAO-B, preventing significant concentrations from reaching the brain, thus contributing no perceptible psychoactive effect without the use of a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI).

Phenethylamine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

...and it got me thinking: We use MAOI's to orally activate DMT, but would it be possible to use an MAOI to enhance the effects of certain psychoactive compounds in chocolate such as phenethylamine?

Now, Anandamide is a different story. One would have to eat pounds of chocolate to get a "high" from it, but this is what interested me:

Acetaminophen is metabolically combined with arachidonic acid by FAAH to form AM404.[17] This metabolite of paracetamol is a potent agonist at the TRPV1 vanilloid receptor, a weak agonist at both CB1 and CB2 receptors, and an inhibitor of anandamide reuptake. As a result, anandamide levels in the body and brain are elevated. In this fashion, paracetamol acts as a pro-drug for a cannabimimetic metabolite.

Anandamide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So would AM404 be the inhibitor to use to enhance Anandamide?

What do you guys think?

 

[۩]

If you do this combo stay with low doses. Too much chocolate and harmalas is a bad, bad, bad way to spend 8 hours.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

As House said, chocolate and MAOIs can be a recipe for a very uncomfortable and potentially life-threatening third of a day. This is primarily, but not only due to the caffeine in cacao. If you value the state of not feeling like your heart might burts, for the love of G*d, do not combine caffeine with full MAO inhibition. (speaking from personal experience)

It might be possible (as with DMT) for one to extract the chemical that you are interested in from the cacao, though. I am fairly certain that some moderately skilled chemistry type could devise an efficient PEA extraction tek.

As for using acetominophen to potentiate anandamide, one would have to look very carefully at the dosages involved. Paracetamol/Tylenol can be very counterindicated for certain people at higher doses, and is likely to be ill-advised for anyone at the levels a recreational drug user might want to consume it in.

But, again, there would seem to be no reason that AM404 couldn't be made from some headache pills and used directly.

If you discover anything, let us know.

 

[universecannon]

Have you guys actually tried this out or?

Because i had one of the most calm and connecting experiences of my life after drinking a smoothie with an ungodly amount of cacao in it and then smoking 10x caapi changa and meditating for hours. I've taken pharmahuasca a few hours after eating a lot of cacao a few times now and never noticed any complications, but i have no idea how it would have been if i combined the two. I don't think i want to be the guinea pig on this one though

 

[۩]

Yes I have.

Medium - Heavy doses of cocoa with medium to heavy doses of oral harmala is what I am talking about to be weary of.

Vaping some caapi in low doses shouldn't trigger nausea, vomiting, headaches, inability to move, convulsions, weird heart feelings etc.

Low doses are fine, and it seems to be OK up until a certain point. Once you cross over that though it really sucks.

 

[soulfood]

I've noticed using either strong chocolate or coffee increases speed of onset, possibly by increasing the rate of absorbtion in the stomach, but beyond that I haven't noticed any nasty side effects.

I'm a big coffee/aya lover

I'd also place responsibility for that action on caffeine/ theobromine for triggering the mechanism rather than the chemicals mentioned in the OP.

 

[benzyme]

I actually contemplated the same, in 2004.
what I've found out since then is that

i) there's no evidence that the phenethylamine present in chocolate (if any), has central activity. the TAR's are still poorly understood. Phenethylamine is rapidly oxidized by MAO-A. taking an MAOI would inhibit this, but it would also inhibit metabolism of theobromine. you may get the jitters.

ii) anandamide, if actually present in chocolate, is likewise metabolized rapidly... but by a different enzyme: FAAH. MAOIs do nothing to inhibit it.

there are a lot of anecdotal blogs and general musings of something I love as much as my mother, which is all fun and good. the one which actually posted chemical composition (by percentage) listed serotonin at the top (aside from theobromine), and tyramine, but anandamide was not listed, nor was phenethylamine.

theobromine is the most abundant active compound in cocoa.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

ii) anandamide, if actually present in chocolate, is likewise metabolized rapidly... but by a different enzyme: FAAH. MAOIs do nothing to inhibit it.

The OP did not say anandamide was present in significant quantities in chocolate. SpartanII said that AM404 is created when Acetaminophen (paracetmol/tylenol) is combined with arachidonic acid by FAAH. AM404 is supposed to be an inhibitor of anandamide reuptake.

 

[benzyme]

waste of time, but only way to know is to investigate it for yourself.
acetominophen likely gets oxidized by a CYP450 oxidoreductase before it can form this complex endogenously.

anandamide has a half-life of ~ 4s. :lol:

 

[jamie]

I have about 20 kilos the highest quality raw cacao you can get without going personally to south america becasue minxx and I started a business selling raw vegan chocolates and cakes etc..well so far that has only cost us more and more money but we have all this cacao!

I have experimented alot..and read alot about cacao shamanism in central and south america..and trust me..quality cacao when dosed properly is very entheogenic. It is almost like san pedro but without the visions..if you take enough you do get a visual glow though, but it is mild. It is totally different from coffee.

For me a "shamanic" dose will start at like 2 big table spoons..here is what I do..take the cacao and grind it up..then get some spring water and bring it to a boil. Put the cacao in a blender and add enough cacao to fill 1 cup..then add some cayene pepper(it helps it absorb) and also chili pepper if you want to..and then we add some raw vanilla pods as well, but I dont expect most to have that so you can use vanilla extract..add some cacao butter and blend it well and drink it.

Some of you might find this interesting..

Ceremonial Cacao

The Chocolate Shaman shares using cacao as a deep connection facilitator for workplace, fun place, group, spiritual, or shamanic purposes.

ceremonialcacao.blogspot.com

^they reccomend between 1-2 ounces for an entheogenic dose..and that is of the beans not camino powder or some 80% crappy bar.

The cacao we have is heirloom cacao, meaning they are not some new hybrid. Alot of the hybrid strains of cacao are known to contain lower ammounts of active alkaloids, though there are still some potent hybrid strains..so keep that in mind.

BE CAREFUL WITH CACAO AND HARMALAS AND OTHER MAOI'S!!!!!..seriousily I have lost my mind before taking too much cacao too soon after drinking ayahuasca..but in the right ammounts this can be AMAZING...get it wrong and you will feel like crap.

I have however had a freaking amazing experience one day drinking a large dose of cacao and then smoking changa right after the cacao hit..it was VERY powerful..but very different from DMT. It was VERY mescaline like..but pink..the pink medicine..soooo clear..like mescaline but 10x clearer..pure heart activation with a clear light seeping in from the pink void of the cosmic heart or something..and it lasted about an hour until giving way to a nice afterglow. I was living in the city and went walking around the city in that state and it was beautiful..with the heart opening warmth of mescaline but the super lucid mental aspect of tryaptamines and lysergics.

I dont do this often. maybe once or twice a month I use cacao this way. Be careful and dont underestimate it. If you get powerful cacao and take too much it can really floor you and I have even purged with it while having visions..that might be hard to believe but it did happen about 2 months ago when I overdid it. I was visiting family and had been eating lots of raw cacao..then we went out and bought a container of that camino stuff and started eating that..and we ate just tons of it. I got higher and higher and higher until it just peaked and I had to shut off the lights and had visions for about 30 minutes(while feeling very nauseasted) until I puked.

Heirloom strains have MAOI's in them. You have to take a large dose of cacao I think based on experience for them to be active though..I think if you take enough cacao the PEA is active for sure. Dont believe me, get some heirloom beans and take a few tablespoons of them...either that or the vanilla/cayene is triggering the activation of the PEA somehow..cus this is not some theobromine thing I am talking about..it is more than just theobromine working.

edit..caffine has not been verified to be found in cacao in active doses as far as I know..only theobromine.

 

[jamie]

I actually contemplated the same, in 2004.
what I've found out since then is that

i) there's no evidence that the phenethylamine present in chocolate (if any), has central activity. the TAR's are still poorly understood. Phenethylamine is rapidly oxidized by MAO-A. taking an MAOI would inhibit this, but it would also inhibit metabolism of theobromine. you may get the jitters.

ii) anandamide, if actually present in chocolate, is likewise metabolized rapidly... but by a different enzyme: FAAH. MAOIs do nothing to inhibit it.

there are a lot of anecdotal blogs and general musings of something I love as much as my mother, which is all fun and good. the one which actually posted chemical composition (by percentage) listed serotonin at the top (aside from theobromine), and tyramine, but anandamide was not listed, nor was phenethylamine.

theobromine is the most abundant active compound in cocoa.

But what cacao did they test? All cacao is not equal in its alkaloid content.

 

[SpartanII]

If you do this combo stay with low doses. Too much chocolate and harmalas is a bad, bad, bad way to spend 8 hours.

Good to know!

As House said, chocolate and MAOIs can be a recipe for a very uncomfortable and potentially life-threatening third of a day. This is primarily, but not only due to the caffeine in cacao. If you value the state of not feeling like your heart might burts, for the love of G*d, do not combine caffeine with full MAO inhibition. (speaking from personal experience)

It might be possible (as with DMT) for one to extract the chemical that you are interested in from the cacao, though. I am fairly certain that some moderately skilled chemistry type could devise an efficient PEA extraction tek.

As for using acetominophen to potentiate anandamide, one would have to look very carefully at the dosages involved. Paracetamol/Tylenol can be very counterindicated for certain people at higher doses, and is likely to be ill-advised for anyone at the levels a recreational drug user might want to consume it in.

But, again, there would seem to be no reason that AM404 couldn't be made from some headache pills and used directly.

If you discover anything, let us know.

Will do. Thanks for the info and warning. I assumed the caffeine content in cocoa is low enough to not pose too much of a problem but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Most of the info that I read stated that most cocoa contains between 5 and 15 mg of caffeine per 5-oz. serving, and that Dutch cocoa contains less caffeine than natural cocoa powder.

waste of time

Awe come on now, that's not a very scientific attitude for a bona fide chemist.

I don't think experimenting with novel psychoactive compounds (or new ways to use known ones) is a waste of time. Even if it turns out as a failure, sometimes we learn by making mistakes, plus it's fun! (as long as one is doing it safely):d I do appreciate your input though, I didn't know the half life of anandamide was so short. Part of the reason for this thread was to toy with the idea of enhancing/prolonging the effect.

I have about 20 kilos the highest quality raw cacao you can get without going personally to south america becasue minxx and I started a business selling raw vegan chocolates and cakes etc..well so far that has only cost us more and more money but we have all this cacao! Smile

I have experimented alot..and read alot about cacao shamanism in central and south america..and trust me..quality cacao when dosed properly is very entheogenic. It is almost like san pedro but without the visions..if you take enough you do get a visual glow though, but it is mild. It is totally different from coffee.

For me a "shamanic" dose will start at like 2 big table spoons..here is what I do..take the cacao and grind it up..then get some spring water and bring it to a boil. Put the cacao in a blender and add enough cacao to fill 1 cup..then add some cayene pepper(it helps it absorb) and also chili pepper if you want to..and then we add some raw vanilla pods as well, but I dont expect most to have that so you can use vanilla extract..add some cacao butter and blend it well and drink it.

Some of you might find this interesting..

Ceremonial Cacao

The Chocolate Shaman shares using cacao as a deep connection facilitator for workplace, fun place, group, spiritual, or shamanic purposes.

ceremonialcacao.blogspot.com

^they reccomend between 1-2 ounces for an entheogenic dose..and that is of the beans not camino powder or some 80% crappy bar.

The cacao we have is heirloom cacao, meaning they are not some new hybrid. Alot of the hybrid strains of cacao are known to contain lower ammounts of active alkaloids, though there are still some potent hybrid strains..so keep that in mind.

BE CAREFUL WITH CACAO AND HARMALAS AND OTHER MAOI'S!!!!!..seriousily I have lost my mind before taking too much cacao too soon after drinking ayahuasca..but in the right ammounts this can be AMAZING...get it wrong and you will feel like crap.

I have however had a freaking amazing experience one day drinking a large dose of cacao and then smoking changa right after the cacao hit..it was VERY powerful..but very different from DMT. It was VERY mescaline like..but pink..the pink medicine..soooo clear..like mescaline but 10x clearer..pure heart activation with a clear light seeping in from the pink void of the cosmic heart or something..and it lasted about an hour until giving way to a nice afterglow. I was living in the city and went walking around the city in that state and it was beautiful..with the heart opening warmth of mescaline but the super lucid mental aspect of tryaptamines and lysergics.

I dont do this often. maybe once or twice a month I use cacao this way. Be careful and dont underestimate it. If you get powerful cacao and take too much it can really floor you and I have even purged with it while having visions..that might be hard to believe but it did happen about 2 months ago when I overdid it. I was visiting family and had been eating lots of raw cacao..then we went out and bought a container of that camino stuff and started eating that..and we ate just tons of it. I got higher and higher and higher until it just peaked and I had to shut off the lights and had visions for about 30 minutes(while feeling very nauseasted) until I puked.

Heirloom strains have MAOI's in them. You have to take a large dose of cacao I think based on experience for them to be active though..I think if you take enough cacao the PEA is active for sure. Dont believe me, get some heirloom beans and take a few tablespoons of them...either that or the vanilla/cayene is triggering the activation of the PEA somehow..cus this is not some theobromine thing I am talking about..it is more than just theobromine working.

edit..caffine has not been verified to be found in cacao in active doses as far as I know..only theobromine.

Thanks for all that information, Jamie. Fellow cocoa-lovers unite!:d

 

[benzyme]

heh, you only quoted half of what I said.
I'm all for experimentation, but of course know the possible repercussions.
Chocolate is indeed divine, but it's a complex cocktail of chemicals, and the major
components may cause hypertension when an MAOI is taken

 

[benzyme]

I actually contemplated the same, in 2004.
what I've found out since then is that

i) there's no evidence that the phenethylamine present in chocolate (if any), has central activity. the TAR's are still poorly understood. Phenethylamine is rapidly oxidized by MAO-A. taking an MAOI would inhibit this, but it would also inhibit metabolism of theobromine. you may get the jitters.

ii) anandamide, if actually present in chocolate, is likewise metabolized rapidly... but by a different enzyme: FAAH. MAOIs do nothing to inhibit it.

there are a lot of anecdotal blogs and general musings of something I love as much as my mother, which is all fun and good. the one which actually posted chemical composition (by percentage) listed serotonin at the top (aside from theobromine), and tyramine, but anandamide was not listed, nor was phenethylamine.

theobromine is the most abundant active compound in cocoa.

But what cacao did they test? All cacao is not equal in its alkaloid content.

Not sure, but you're right about genetic variability in plants, alk content will vary by yield; yet chemical composition is fairly consistent. Oleamides and phenethylamine are very minor components

 

[tigerstrike92]

Thanks for all the info! I will definitely be trying that cocao "recipe" soon, jamie.