Burning DMT > Potential By-products

[CatsPawTea]

I was trying to figure out some stuff regarding temperature control with an e-mesh and asked ChatGPT what temperature DMT vaporizes at vs what temperature it burns at.

To my surprise it mentioned that there are potentially dangerous byproducts that can result from burning DMT. My chemistry is not that good but it sounded slightly off so I asked it if it was sure considering the molecular structure and it did confirm that it believes harmful by-products are a possibility.

Tried searching the forum but can't find the topic. Anyone with better chemistry knowledge than me care to weigh in? I've included the conversation with GPT below.

what harmful by-products would it produce by burning?

When DMT is burned rather than vaporized, it undergoes a process of combustion which can produce a range of potentially harmful by-products. These can include:

1. **Carbon Monoxide (CO)**: A colorless, odorless gas that can be very harmful when inhaled, as it binds to hemoglobin in the blood more effectively than oxygen, leading to oxygen deprivation in the body.

2. **Various Nitrogen Oxides (NOx)**: These gases can be irritating to the respiratory system and, in some cases, may contribute to the formation of smog and acid rain.

3. **Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAHs)**: These are a group of chemicals that are formed during the incomplete burning of carbon-containing materials. Some PAHs are known carcinogens.

4. **Aldehydes (such as Formaldehyde)**: These compounds can be irritating to the eyes, nose, throat, and lungs. Prolonged exposure to high levels of aldehydes can be harmful.

5. **Other Particulate Matter**: Burning can produce small particles that can be inhaled deeply into the lungs, potentially causing respiratory issues.

These by-products are not unique to DMT but are common in the combustion of many organic compounds. The specific composition and quantity of these by-products can vary depending on the exact temperature and conditions of combustion. This is why vaporization, which involves heating a substance to a temperature where it turns into vapor without burning, is often considered a safer method of inhalation for various substances, as it minimizes the production of harmful combustion by-products.

I don't understand how these products would be produced from freebase DMT when the molecules needed aren't present as far as I'm aware.

You raise a valid point. The formation of specific by-products during the combustion of a substance like freebase DMT depends on its chemical structure and the presence of certain elements in the molecule.

DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine) primarily consists of carbon (C), hydrogen (H), and nitrogen (N) atoms. Its chemical structure does not include oxygen (O), which is a key element in compounds like aldehydes and carboxylic acids that can be formed during combustion. This means that some of the by-products typical of burning organic materials (like wood or tobacco), which contain oxygen in their structures, might not be produced in the same way or abundance when DMT is burned.

However, the process of combustion can still lead to the breakdown and rearrangement of the DMT molecule, potentially forming various compounds. These could include:

1. **Breakdown products of the tryptamine structure**: The combustion of the tryptamine backbone could lead to a variety of smaller hydrocarbons or nitrogen-containing compounds.

2. **Nitrogen oxides (NOx)**: These might still be produced since DMT contains nitrogen. The high-temperature combustion in the presence of atmospheric oxygen can convert molecular nitrogen (N2) and nitrogen in the compound into various oxides of nitrogen.

3. **Carbon monoxide (CO) and carbon dioxide (CO2)**: Incomplete combustion can produce carbon monoxide, while complete combustion would typically produce carbon dioxide.

4. **Complex mixtures of other organic compounds**: Depending on the combustion conditions, a variety of other complex organic compounds could potentially be formed.

It's important to note that the specific by-products of burning DMT are not well-characterized in scientific literature, as most research focuses on its pharmacological effects rather than its combustion chemistry. Additionally, the practical implications of inhaling these by-products, especially in the context of using DMT, are not fully understood. As always, caution and adherence to health and safety guidelines are crucial.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Can't wait for a chemical expert to weigh in and correct ChatGPT (if necessary) :lol:.

One love

 

[Hyper Turtle]

DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine) primarily consists of carbon (C), hydrogen (H), and nitrogen (N) atoms. Its chemical structure does not include oxygen (O), which is a key element in compounds like aldehydes and carboxylic acids that can be formed during combustion. This means that some of the by-products typical of burning organic materials (like wood or tobacco), which contain oxygen in their structures, might not be produced in the same way or abundance when DMT is burned.

I'm no chemical expert, but i know this: oxygen is present in the combustion of DMT, because it is in the air.

 

[CatsPawTea]

Can't wait for a chemical expert to weigh in and correct ChatGPT (if necessary) :lol:.

One love

Same lol. Would be good to know if there's extra unsavouriness related to burning rather than just wasting good spice.

I'm no chemical expert, but i know this: oxygen is present in the combustion of DMT, because it is in the air.

Right? I thought the same when I read that but I don't know enough chem to know if there's a difference between oxygen being in the air or locked into the molecular structure... Which shouldn't make a difference anyways because DMT oxidizes.

 

[Hyper Turtle]

Right? I thought the same when I read that but I don't know enough chem to know if there's a difference between oxygen being in the air or locked into the molecular structure... Which shouldn't make a difference anyways because DMT oxidizes.

Me neither

To be fair, GPT's wording was pretty good: "might not be produced in the same way or abundance". It didn't say "can't be produced".

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Right? I thought the same when I read that but I don't know enough chem to know if there's a difference between oxygen being in the air or locked into the molecular structure... Which shouldn't make a difference anyways because DMT oxidizes.

Me neither

To be fair, GPT's wording was pretty good: "might not be produced in the same way or abundance". It didn't say "can't be produced".

The range of DMT pyrolysis products at a given temperature would vary depending on the levels of ambient atmospheric oxygen. For example, I suspect that DMT might vaporize largely unchanged in an inert - oxygen-free - atmosphere, since that's what can be achieved with careful heating in ordinary airflow, whereas heating it in pure oxygen would lead to complete combustion, producing carbon dioxide, water, and nitrogen/oxides of nitrogen. This just highlights the two extreme cases; air can be used as a means of adding oxygen in certain chemical reactions since it is a form of dilute oxygen.

It seems, therefore, reasonable to assert that incomplete combustion in the presence of air may give rise to some oxygenated products, even from a substance that didn't originally contain any.

 

[CatsPawTea]

The range of DMT pyrolysis products at a given temperature would vary depending on the levels of ambient atmospheric oxygen. For example, I suspect that DMT might vaporize largely unchanged in an inert - oxygen-free - atmosphere, since that's what can be achieved with careful heating in ordinary airflow, whereas heating it in pure oxygen would lead to complete combustion, producing carbon dioxide, water, and nitrogen/oxides of nitrogen. This just highlights the two extreme cases; air can be used as a means of adding oxygen in certain chemical reactions since it is a form of dilute oxygen.

It seems, therefore, reasonable to assert that incomplete combustion in the presence of air may give rise to some oxygenated products, even from a substance that didn't originally contain any.

CO2 doesn’t seem too bad in such small quantities, but wouldn’t carbon monoxide also be possible?

I guess my real question is… in your opinion would there be any potentially hazardous byproducts of burning the DMT? And if so how bad would we be talking? If there’s any way to quantify this.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The dose makes the toxin. If I had to hazard ( ) a guess, the amounts produced from a session of smoalking DMT would likely be negligible.

One love

 

[downwardsfromzero]

The more carefully and skilfully one vaporises one's DMT, the better - is my opinion. It should be smooth and relatively tasty (compared with burning it, indeed). The more burnt it is, the more likely you are to encounter unfavorable pyrolysis products, right up to the point just before complete combustion. I do sometimes wonder about Terence McKenna's brain tumour...

 

[Physics131]

Sounds like vaporizing dmt is healthy

 

[Voidmatrix]

The more carefully and skilfully one vaporises one's DMT, the better - is my opinion. It should be smooth and relatively tasty (compared with burning it, indeed). The more burnt it is, the more likely you are to encounter unfavorable pyrolysis products, right up to the point just before complete combustion. I do sometimes wonder about Terence McKenna's brain tumour...

Okie doke, then what are your thoughts on combustion changa?

One love

 

[downwardsfromzero]

My experience level with combustion changa is really too minimal to comment meaningfully. I have a few extrapolated ideas along the lines of how it's always going to be possible to have a smoking method that may be more or less prudent overall. But seeing as it involves inhaling combusted plant material this will involve a risk from the usual culprits like CO, PAH and PM10/PM2.5 to name but a few. It's up to the individual to assess that risk for themselves.

From a personal perspective, I've inhaled my fair share of combustion products over the years but have kept it to an absolute minimum in the past five, except for a tiny handful of infrequent, more or less ceremonial occasions, none of which involved changa. I'm a bit of a sucker for real wood fires so, besides traffic exhaust, much of my exposure to particulates and PAH result from that. And since moving somewhere with a higher level of (aforementioned) air pollution I'm disinclined to increase my overall load in that respect. [Thinking about it, my end-of-summer bonfire involved roasting a load of rue seed and then burning a bale of phalaris straw. Yes, I did inhale Two-stage pseudochanga? The effects were mild at best.]

Some people seem to get away with smoking [for a time, at least...] but extrapolating that to changa is difficult, I suspect, due to the lack of epidemiological data. However, if I found myself to be somewhere with nice clean air, beautiful nature and changa was offered to me for smoking, chances are I would probably accept, especially if a couple more set and setting boxes were ticked (checked).


Apologies for rambling a bit, I drank a load of Salvia elegans tea :lol:

 

[Mindlusion]

you will be getting both pyrolysis products and combustion products

pyrolysis and incomplete combustion will give you things like indole

with pyrolysis it will likely cleave along the ethyl side chain , giving you an indole or indole carbaldehyde, along with the trimethylamine which will decompose into formaldehyde and with further oxidation , carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides

the indole can also form free radical at high temperature and react with oxygen, forming alkyl benzenes and more carbon and nitrogen oxides, it can also carbonize and form particulates which you want to avoid

so chatgpt was reasonably on the right track, it just gave a generic answer that would be the same for the combustion of any organic compound , only PAHs doesn't really make sense because there isn't enough because the indole to form any PAHs

but yeah you really want to avoid burning DMT. It without a doubt produces harmful byproducts.. Burning anything carbon based will produce harmful byproducts by virtue of the nature of the byproducts.. in personal experience, inhaling burnt DMT causes severe irritation and its impossible to hold it in your lungs (and you wouldn't want to). The taste is also very bad, its taste a lot like how pure indole smells, actually, not good and very strong. The last time I tried a smoking method it was many years ago now but it caused me so much pain and choking, to the point is was really ruining the experience, I changed my method of administration completely.

Pure vaporized DMT almost has no taste and does not cause pain in the lungs it can be easy to take more then you accounted for this way.

You can also vaporize changa, I highly recommend that as well

 

[Loveall]

But isn't pure vaporized DMT alkaline to the point of mildly irritating around the mouth/lips. And numbing post initial irritation?

 

[Voidmatrix]

Thank you for all of the valuable information. I have some follow-up questions.

Considering how low DMT is dosed, how much of these negative byproducts (from pyrolysis and combustion) are formed? Are there really enough produced to be concerned? Do these byproducts accumulate in the body or does the body relieve itself of them over time?

It sounds like I should be using my vg much more, even for changa, which brings me to:
Mindlusion, do you notice a difference in experience when you vape changa instead of combust it because of the difference in melting and vaporization points between DMT and harmalas?

I'd be saddened to have to retire some of my pipes. But safety and health first.

One love

Actually, I'm curious about combusting harmalas in general seeing as how I smoalk them with cannabis pretty often.

 

[AwesomeUsername]

Been chatting with GPT as well...

Thing is, most if the answers are inconclusive in nature.

It keeps repeating that is hasn't been extensively studied which is true, it also mentions what has been already confirmed like known byproducts from combustion.

Lots of questions that you may ask will lead to scary answers.

Here are also some facts to consider, if you get exposed to certain byproducts the amount of them is really hard to imposible to messure... considering the circumstances.

But considering the relatively small amount of vapor (not even smoke), the amount of the byproducts is certainly too small be of any kind of significance.

Just because something is a known toxin, the miniscule amount that you get exposed to is probably nothing that harms you in the short or long term.

If you are looking for straight forward answers ask a human, a chemist, doctor, or consumer.

I think that this forum proves, that proper extraction of spice is incredibly safe to consume physically.

Cigarettes, polution, certian foods and beverages are probably way more toxic then DMT with high purity.

With that all being said, how many of us have tried and used hard drugs (including alcohol) at some point of our lives not worrying about toxic cutting agents and left overs of acids, bases, solvents and contaminations from heavy metals?

All of us seem to be fine at the end of the day, the human body is quite resistant to environmental stressors.

 

[Voidmatrix]

But considering the relatively small amount of vapor (not even smoke), the amount of the byproducts is certainly too small be of any kind of significance.

Just because something is a known toxin, the miniscule amount that you get exposed to is probably nothing that harms you in the short or long term.

I've had similar thoughts. I feel like the amounts of pyrolysis byproducts and combustion byproducts would be negligible, but I'm not a chemist like Mindlusion or DF0, so that's why I asked them

But also, to reiterate, and in the spirit of this thread, the dose makes the toxin.

One love

 

[dragonrider]

Well, tobacco also contains harmala alkaloids. So my reasoning would be that the damage of smoking tobacco is that of the burning harmala alkaloids+all of the other toxic materials in it.

So then smoking changa or cannabis with harmala's still exposes you to only a fraction of the toxic stuff that a cigarette smoker is normally being exposed to.

But there's no DMT in tobacco, or any other tryptamine. As far as i know.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Well, tobacco also contains harmala alkaloids. So my reasoning would be that the damage of smoking tobacco is that of the burning harmala alkaloids+all of the other toxic materials in it.

So then smoking changa or cannabis with harmala's still exposes you to only a fraction of the toxic stuff that a cigarette smoker is normally being exposed to.

But there's no DMT in tobacco, or any other tryptamine. As far as i know.

Well, that's interesting. Didn't realize I started working with harmalas so long ago (though I vape now) :lol:

I'm still curious though as these aren't things that I'm very versed, not being as educated in chemistry as others. I am still leaning towards the production of certain byproducts being negligible (though I did smoalk some changa from my gvg today just in case I decide I need to use my bubbler less often) and perhaps not of huge concern.

One love

 

[scaredofthedark]

Specificity of Combustion Byproducts:

• The byproducts of combustion depend on the chemical structure of the burned substance. DMT primarily contains carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen. Incomplete combustion typically produces carbon monoxide (CO) and various hydrocarbons. Nitrogen in DMT may lead to nitrogen oxides (NOx), but the formation of specific nitrogen-containing compounds requires detailed analysis. Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAHs) and aldehydes are typically formed from the incomplete combustion of substances with higher carbon-to-hydrogen ratios than DMT.

Comparative Toxicity with Tobacco Smoke:

• Tobacco smoke contains thousands of chemicals, including known carcinogens like certain PAHs, nitrosamines, and formaldehyde. These compounds result from the complex nature of tobacco, which includes proteins, cellulose, and various natural chemicals. DMT's simpler structure might not produce as wide a range of toxic byproducts, but without empirical studies specifically on DMT smoke, comparisons remain speculative.

Generalization of Combustion Processes:

• In combustion, the temperature and oxygen availability play critical roles. Higher temperatures and sufficient oxygen typically lead to more complete combustion, producing mainly carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). Incomplete combustion, often due to lower temperatures or limited oxygen, can result in CO, PAHs, and other incomplete oxidation products. The physical state (powder, crystal, plant material) of DMT can also influence how it burns and what byproducts are formed.

Health Implications of Byproducts:

• The health implications depend on the concentration of byproducts. CO is a toxic gas that binds to hemoglobin more effectively than oxygen, impairing oxygen transport in the body. NOx can irritate the respiratory system and contribute to smog formation. However, the actual health risk from DMT smoke would depend on the quantities of these byproducts and the frequency and mode of exposure.

Pyrolysis vs. Combustion:

• Pyrolysis occurs in the absence of oxygen and typically at higher temperatures than combustion. It leads to the breakdown of organic materials into smaller molecules. For DMT, this could mean breaking down into simpler nitrogen-containing compounds, smaller hydrocarbons, or even char. Combustion, on the other hand, involves oxygen and leads to oxidation products like CO2, CO, and NOx. The presence of oxygen in combustion tends to result in more complete oxidation products compared to pyrolysis.

Where is the robot wrong, folks?