Caapi Tea + Vaped Spice

[M0K0]

Hello dear nexus members,
because the pure spice experience is way to short and to intense to get a hold of it i want to potentiate and prolong my trip with a caapi tea.
Now here is my question,
if i get full MAO inhibition and smoke 30mg spice i will be on the other side for the next couple of ours because the molecule will not be broken down by the body, so basically i have ayahuasca?

I want the DMT experience to be as clear as possible and just stretch it out to 10-20 minutes.
The Plan is to boil 10g caapi leaves over 3 hours to a tea and ingest it,
40 minutes later i want to smoke a breakthrough dosage of spice.
Am i right in the assumption that the caapi will make the dmt not oraly active because you would 50g> for this but will only partly inhibit my MAO to prolong the trip.
I am asking this question because i dont want to make the mistake to smoke a breakthrough dosage of spice with fully inhibited MAO because this experience would last for several hours and coming back in a sane state is not guaranteed.

love is out

 

[starway7]

Yes caapi leaf tea will effect your vaped experiance .. Vaping with tea is is close to the oral experiance only doesnt last as long...

Its called... [Vaporhuasca]

Ive used the tea before vaping in past and it did effect the experiance several times...

It also depends on what type of caapi leaf your using..

Different types of caapi ...yellow...red...black ect..are known to have different potencys...

Rue is much stronger than the leaf but rue tast nasty...but as a tea..caapi leaf actually tastes pretty good..

I just ordered some fresh caapi leaf ..the species i ordered is supposed to be related to the caapi growing on the late Mkennas property on the big island..

The caapi grower was given the plants years back from Mckenna..they said..

Its most likely going to be red caapi leaf...Mckenna Red..

Most Caapi contains some level of THH I think...

I have some 6 year old black caapi leaf that still has some potency left...

Good luck..

 

[MuteUSO]

Just a word of caution. Combining a MAOI with dmt not only prolongs but also considerably intensifies the experience. So, I would strongly advice against smoking a breakthrough dose while MAOI'd up. This combo will get you into really deep waters and you'll stay there for a long time, even with relatively small doses of MAOI.

IMO, a better approach is to take the MAOI and take consecutive small vape hits (like 2-3mg at a time). The nice thing is that the MAOI allows you to 'top-up' repeatedly until you are where you want to be. This way you can also get a feel for how the MAOI impacts intensity; it really is quite significant.

On another note, an interesting approach is also to turn your idea upside down. Taking a high dose of rue/caapi with a small dose of DMT. For what it's worth, this is also more in line with the indigenous approach, where oftentimes the Aya spirit is seen to be in the caapi, whereas the DMT 'only' provides the 'light' to make visions clearer.

Good luck with your experiments, and make sure to report back!

 

[M0K0]

thanks for the warning, i will start slowly and work my way up.
Next week ill go on holiday and there will be time for exploration and experimentation, i will report my experiences to the nexus when i am back.
Have a great day

 

[Ruffles]

From experiences with this approach, the combination is very benign. Has a good safety room to work in.

Maoi doesn't change usual dosing with vaped dmt, a one shot 30 mg while loaded on 100 mg maoi doesn't make it stronge. It has a mild prolonging peak effects and comedown. The quality and feel of experience is very different though. You can learn your way through it from 5 or 10 mg increments per trip, up to 40, pretty safe and easy. Also toking small 5 mg huts to get you where you want is kind of doable.

Now you are working with seeds, that may be trickier to hit maoi target, so just make sure you always prep it the same way to get consistency between Dimitri tests. Or better, extract it.

 

[pantostao]

a one shot 30 mg while loaded on 100 mg maoi doesn't make it stronge.

A bit of a warning: 100mg of maoi isnt that much if its taken orally. Lots of people report needing 200-300mg of harmalas when using that route. On the contrary, 30-40mg of vaporized harmalas are enough to potenciate a DMT experience quite a bit.

I agree with Ruffles advice, specially on taking small tokes of DMT while under the maoi effects, because its perfectly doable. But yeah, I wanted to throw this bit of a warning: The maoi dose he is reporting is not that high, and a higher dose might lead to more potentiation of DMT effects.

 

[MuteUSO]

a one shot 30 mg while loaded on 100 mg maoi doesn't make it stronge.

A bit of a warning: 100mg of maoi isnt that much if its taken orally. Lots of people report needing 200-300mg of harmalas when using that route. On the contrary, 30-40mg of vaporized harmalas are enough to potenciate a DMT experience quite a bit.

Yeah, I think it is worth emphasising this again. What Ruffles said above really may just apply to pretty low oral harmalas (freebase) dosages. Amounts of 100mg can be easily surpassed when ingesting plant matter. For example, caapi content can go up to 3% I think (although this varies quite a bit with many vine samples being lower). Also, ingesting the whole plant (or even with tea) will also have THH and a range of other alks which probably somehow interact with the vaped DMT (whereas when people talk about 'freebase' harmalas, they typically just refer to the Harmine/Harmaline). Anyways, 50-100g of caapi vine brew may very well put you way beyond the 100mg.

And again, in my experience the harmalas very well potentiate intensity of effects. I would never attempt something like a 30mg dmt hit when really MAOI'd up. In fact, I would not even attempt it with 100mg - but then, I am pretty sensitive, maybe these things work differently for more hard-headed folks.

 

[M0K0]

When i smoke caapi leaves and then smoke dmt it changes my trip in a more natural way and even slows down the come up and the offset.
My concerns are that 5g of smoked caapi leaves will only inhibit my mao a little bit and thats why it potentiates the spice, when i drink 50g of caapi tea my mao would be completely inhibited what would lead to the dmt not being broken down which will not just potentiates the trip by a couple of minutes but would sent me to an 3 hour journey because the spice will circulate in my blood as long as the caapi is active and im under full MAOI.

I am very aware that a little bit of caapi can change and potentiate my spice journey but i am talking about full MAOI which would only appear above 50g of caapi tea.
t this stage it should be trivial if i ingest the dmt orally or smoke it because it will not be broken down for the next couple of hours right?

 

[Sabnock1990]

Idk if anyone else has noticed this, but the times i've taken oral Harmalas and smoked DMT, i didn't really find there to be much potentiation, and really no lengthening of duration. I would take a full dose of Harmalas, wait a couple hours for it to take full effect, and then smoke DMT. No doubt that combination is good, but i didn't really find much in the way of potentiation of DMT by oral Harmalas. But when i've combined smoked Harmalas with smoked DMT, there is potentiation and lengthening of duration. My guess is that smoked stuff goes straight to the brain and is more heady, whereas oral stuff is more full bodied, and so when you take Harmalas orally, they don't have as much action in the brain since things are more full bodied, whereas Changa for example is more heady and not full bodied, but the smoked Harmalas go more into the brain and thus potentiates the DMT more. So imo, if one is going to consume oral Harmalas and then smoke DMT, it's a good thing to also have smoked Harmalas in the mix as well, for potentiation.

 

[MuteUSO]

Idk if anyone else has noticed this, but the times i've taken oral Harmalas and smoked DMT, i didn't really find there to be much potentiation, and really no lengthening of duration. I would take a full dose of Harmalas, wait a couple hours for it to take full effect, and then smoke DMT. No doubt that combination is good, but i didn't really find much in the way of potentiation of DMT by oral Harmalas. But when i've combined smoked Harmalas with smoked DMT, there is potentiation and lengthening of duration. My guess is that smoked stuff goes straight to the brain and is more heady, whereas oral stuff is more full bodied, and so when you take Harmalas orally, they don't have as much action in the brain since things are more full bodied, whereas Changa for example is more heady and not full bodied, but the smoked Harmalas go more into the brain and thus potentiates the DMT more. So imo, if one is going to consume oral Harmalas and then smoke DMT, it's a good thing to also have smoked Harmalas in the mix as well, for potentiation.

Interesting! In light of this, maybe I have been a bit too hasty with my previous comments then. In fact, I only ever combined vaped DMT with sublingual harmalas. Or at least 'partly' sublingual. So, what I do is put Rue (seeds, crushed) or caapi paste sublingually and then swallow whatever is left after like 20-30 minutes. For me this slows down the onset and considerably potentiates what you would get with just vaped DMT.

Ever tried it this way, Shamens?

 

[Sabnock1990]

I've tried sublingual Harmalas before but not with DMT in the mix. I imagine that sublingually it would probably do better than orally, because sublingually is also supposed to be more absorbed into the bloodstream and so would likely be more going to the brain as well, similarly to smoked Harmalas. Ime with sublingual Harmalas it kinda seems like a cross between smoked Harmalas and oral Harmalas, but still feels rather heady to me compared to oral Harmalas. I've also tried snuffing the Harmalas nasally a few times and that also had a similar effect to sublingual.

But yeah last year i decided to make some more Changa and decided to try the oral Harmalas a couple hours before smoking some pure DMT sandwiched with regular Caapi leaf, and idk, it may have been slowed down a little bit but it was rather quick, but i did find oral Harmalas+Harmala'd up Changa to be better as far as duration and potentiation goes. But the oral Harmalas and vaped DMT was indeed a nice combination, i just wish it had lasted longer, hence why i added smoked Harmalas to the mix as well.

Also, smoked DMT with either oral or smoked Harmalas seems pretty dang user-friendly to me, it's so easy to work your way into things. What i like to do is take a few hits of the DMT and once that initial come up intensity hits me i'll put the pipe down for a couple minutes or so until the come up intensity passes and then i go back to smoking the DMT, and from there, it's so smooth and warm and comfortable and inviting and i can easily work my way into deep territory, as far as i'm concerned that should be "the way" to go rather than trying to get as much DMT inhaled as quickly as possible and having to go through such intensity, i mean that's certainly an option ya know but i for one prefer a smoother/calmer lift off and oral Harmalas+smoked DMT (or Changa) is a really good way to go about that.

I'm still i would say fairly inexperienced with smoked DMT, i've smoked it a good bit in the form of Changa, and have had some DMT-enhanced leaf, and i mean i've gotten good results from it so far, but i'm by far way more experienced with DMT orally and as good as smoked DMT is/can be, i can't help but see it as kind of a waste compared to the "full shebang" of oral DMT, but at the same time there's definitely some differences between the ROA's and i'm fascinated by all things DMT and Huasca so i embrace it all, but i overall prefer oral DMT, but still definitely need to further explore smoked DMT, i just hate that it doesn't last as long as oral DMT, but Changa is a good way to keep the ball rolling for a good bit. Honestly i think the combination of oral Aya with smoked DMT/Changa would be quite the interesting route to explore, and if i can ever bring myself to start experimenting with things more fully again i would love to explore the combo and see what all it's capable of, same with Aya/oral DMT+mushroom (or 4-ACO-DMT) combo which i've done once before and it was great.

 

[MuteUSO]

Yeah, makes sense that sublingual more readily goes into the brain. ShamensStamen, may I ask how the oral harmalas+vaped dmt feels for you when you compare it to vaped dmt only? You wrote earlier that you didn't experience much lengthening and potentiation. But you said it is "good" - could you elaborate on that a little more?

Also, smoked DMT with either oral or smoked Harmalas seems pretty dang user-friendly to me, it's so easy to work your way into things. What i like to do is take a few hits of the DMT and once that initial come up intensity hits me i'll put the pipe down for a couple minutes or so until the come up intensity passes and then i go back to smoking the DMT, and from there, it's so smooth and warm and comfortable and inviting and i can easily work my way into deep territory, as far as i'm concerned that should be "the way" to go rather than trying to get as much DMT inhaled as quickly as possible and having to go through such intensity, i mean that's certainly an option ya know but i for one prefer a smoother/calmer lift off and oral Harmalas+smoked DMT (or Changa) is a really good way to go about that.

Amen. And I think this should clear it up for OP. I really also think that's "the way" to go; albeit I just tried it with sublingual harmalas and not fully oral. So much smoother than the pure vaped dmt, less risk for 'bad' experiences, and you actually can take away more because it is slowed down.

if i can ever bring myself to start experimenting with things more fully again

Sorry if this is too personal of a question. But just out of curiosity - what keeps you from experimenting?

 

[Sabnock1990]

As much as i would like to experiment some more, i'm just more focusing on my day to day these days and exploring other medicines and medicine combos and just trying to get myself in a good and settled place in life, as i think that is more important for me at this point in time than tripping balls like i used to lol. Plus my ego and mind have gotten a bit more comfortable with things again and there's no real reason to shake things up at the moment. Also i've pretty satisfied with what all i've gotten out of Aya and Psyches already, so idk i guess i just don't really feel the need to dive back in again yet, but every so often i do feel like i want to but then i'm like "nah, i'm too comfortable today" lol. Idk where my drive went for this stuff, i was gung ho for Aya and took it pretty much daily for 4 years and now i can barely get myself to take mushrooms or 4-ACO or LSD lol.

As for the oral Harmalas and vaped DMT, obviously the oral Harmalas just feel like oral Harmalas, although i do notice a more distinct Serotonergic effect from oral Harmalas compared to smoked Harmalas and i think that probably has to do with most of the body's Serotonin being in the gut rather than the brain and with gut MAO-A inhibited there's definitely a more pronounced Serotonergic effect whereas smoked Harmalas don't inhibit gut MAO-A that i can tell and so it feels like there's much less of a Serotonergic effect. The smoked DMT though, like i said it feels heady and so i feel it moreso in my shoulders and head whereas oral DMT is more full bodied, and so the combination between the full bodied Harmalas and the heady DMT can be a nice mix in how things feel and interact. I do find the oral Harmalas definitely gives you room to better explore the DMT, so like you said because it's slowed down and because you can just smoke on it here and there you have more room to explore and can take more away from it and get more out of it.

Whenever i do get back into things again though, i'm definitely getting into some mixes like mushrooms or 4-ACO with oral Aya and like oral Aya+smoked Changa/enhanced leaf, i feel like Changa would really come in handy while on oral Aya.

 

[Voidmatrix]

My concerns are that 5g of smoked caapi leaves will only inhibit my mao a little bit and thats why it potentiates the spice, when i drink 50g of caapi tea my mao would be completely inhibited what would lead to the dmt not being broken down which will not just potentiates the trip by a couple of minutes but would sent me to an 3 hour journey because the spice will circulate in my blood as long as the caapi is active and im under full MAOI.

I understand your reasoning. But I'm not quite sure that's how that works. The MAOI metabolic action that would break down the DMT happens in the gut not in the bloodstream, and smoalked/vaped DMT never enters the gut; into the lungs, then the blood, then the brain, binding to serotonin receptors.

Idk if anyone else has noticed this, but the times i've taken oral Harmalas and smoked DMT, i didn't really find there to be much potentiation, and really no lengthening of duration. I would take a full dose of Harmalas, wait a couple hours for it to take full effect, and then smoke DMT. No doubt that combination is good, but i didn't really find much in the way of potentiation of DMT by oral Harmalas. But when i've combined smoked Harmalas with smoked DMT, there is potentiation and lengthening of duration. My guess is that smoked stuff goes straight to the brain and is more heady, whereas oral stuff is more full bodied, and so when you take Harmalas orally, they don't have as much action in the brain since things are more full bodied, whereas Changa for example is more heady and not full bodied, but the smoked Harmalas go more into the brain and thus potentiates the DMT more. So imo, if one is going to consume oral Harmalas and then smoke DMT, it's a good thing to also have smoked Harmalas in the mix as well, for potentiation.

I too have found that when I drink rue and then vape DMT it's certainly a different experience, but it's not potentiated quite as long, as when I say, smoalk some changa.

It's a damn interesting time to combine smoalked harmalas with imbibed harmalas and then adding smoalked/vaped DMT. This is something that I've been meaning to get back to and explore more, but after drinking 4g-5g of rue and then smoalking changa the experience is potentiated longer than with one harmala ROA alone, that is, potentiated longer than if I only imbibe or if I only smoalk.

One love

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yup, same.

 

[MuteUSO]

As much as i would like to experiment some more, i'm just more focusing on my day to day these days and exploring other medicines and medicine combos and just trying to get myself in a good and settled place in life, as i think that is more important for me at this point in time than tripping balls like i used to lol. Plus my ego and mind have gotten a bit more comfortable with things again and there's no real reason to shake things up at the moment. Also i've pretty satisfied with what all i've gotten out of Aya and Psyches already, so idk i guess i just don't really feel the need to dive back in again yet, but every so often i do feel like i want to but then i'm like "nah, i'm too comfortable today" lol. Idk where my drive went for this stuff, i was gung ho for Aya and took it pretty much daily for 4 years and now i can barely get myself to take mushrooms or 4-ACO or LSD lol.

That sounds like a pretty healthy mindset. Thanks so much for providing a glimpse. I guess you will know when it is time again.

I understand your reasoning. But I'm not quite sure that's how that works. The MAOI metabolic action that would break down the DMT happens in the gut not in the bloodstream, and smoalked/vaped DMT never enters the gut; into the lungs, then the blood, then the brain, binding to serotonin receptors.

But - at least - some of the MAOI effect should also take effect in the brain, even when harmalas are consumed orally. Or do I get that wrong? In this vein, I don't really understand why oral harmalas appear to 'only' prolong the (vaped) dmt, as opposed to also potentiating it. Whereas vaped/sublingual harmalas seem to do both potentiate and prolong.

 

[starway7]

I just got my bag of B Caapi leaf follage..

It smells good .. strong smelling..pungent...and earthy !

The leaf i have is supposed to be a caapi variety from Mekennas garden on the big island..

Mckenna gifted some vine plants to a person who continues to grow the vine...

its american vine..probibly from the big island...it could be..[ Mckenna red]?

As a test..I boiled a small amount of leaf in plain water.. and its producing a ..pale blue color.. under black light..

I compaired some rue seed after boiling it in plain water the color is more yellowish green under black light...

wished i knew how to make my camera capture the two blacklight enhansed colors acuratly...! i would send those photos if good enough...

below are photos...

 

[downwardsfromzero]

But - at least - some of the MAOI effect should also take effect in the brain, even when harmalas are consumed orally. Or do I get that wrong? In this vein, I don't really understand why oral harmalas appear to 'only' prolong the (vaped) dmt, as opposed to also potentiating it. Whereas vaped/sublingual harmalas seem to do both potentiate and prolong.

This could be the result of a metabolic byproduct (harm(al)ol?) having 'anti-DMT' effects in the brain, some other side-effect of the differing pharmacodynamics, or maybe even differences in metabolism of the DMT that result from the influence of harmala alkaloids on the bodily enzyme profile.

Jonathan Ott observed, in "Ayahuasca Analogues", that "maybe be we need less ayahuasca in our ayahuasca", referring to his goal at the time of oral activation and potentiation of DMT. He noted that higher doses of oral harmalas would start to diminish some of the visionary effects of DMT.

I'd consider this a safety mechanism - harmalas are great!

BTW, VM - MAO occurs in the brain and the bloodstream to a lesser extent than in the gut but it's still there IIRC.

 

[Voidmatrix]

BTW, VM - MAO occurs in the brain and the bloodstream to a lesser extent than in the gut but it's still there IIRC.

From my understanding, the amount in the blood and brain are negligible and so still wouldn't be likely to make one trip for hours with the ROA in question. Thoughts?

One love

 

[Sabnock1990]

He noted that higher doses of oral harmalas would start to diminish some of the visionary effects of DMT.

I'm pretty sure i've noticed this too, for me there's a certain dosage range of Harmalas/Rue that seems like it's more visual (both the Harmalas and the DMT) whereas beyond that range it becomes less visual and more physical, which isn't an issue for me because i'm not one to focus on the visual aspect because there's way more going on in that space than mere visuals lol, but it is something i've noticed and wondered about before, if anyone else had noticed a similar effect. Although i don't see Harmalas as anti-DMT in any way, but that the Harmalas merely channel/filter the DMT's effects through the effects of the Harmalas and so DMT is then used moreso to illuminate the teachings and states of the Harmalas rather than it being about the visuals of the DMT. I've also noticed that when i've taken oral DMT with Moclobemide that i seemed to get more in the way of visual effects, particularly open eyed, that i don't seem to get when using Harmalas.