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Cacti & Harmalas, any final word on safety?
- Thread starter Asher7
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Keep in mind that it’s highly likely to be personal bias contributing to people’s perception of varied cacti experience across strains. For the most part it’s just mescaline that’s affecting how you feel and that alone can lead to incredibly different experience each time
But there are other phenethylamines and alkaloids in these cacti besides mescaline. A few of them are described here on the Nexus in "The Cactus Analysis Thread".
The different species of trichocereus cacti do have different alkaloid profiles and ratios. That is undeniable. And certainly it also varies within a species between different individual cacti.
No one would argue that all species and strains of cannabis have the exact same effect. Why argue such a point with cacti?
The different species of trichocereus cacti do have different alkaloid profiles and ratios. That is undeniable. And certainly it also varies within a species between different individual cacti.
No one would argue that all species and strains of cannabis have the exact same effect. Why argue such a point with cacti?
A single so called species, nay specimen of cactus can vary in its profile and ratios.
However as experience accumulates the subjective differences between species, specimens and situations becomes increasingly evident as no more than a dose dependant relationship between effects and the amount of mescaline ingested.
Perhaps there will be evidence one day of pharmacologically distinct actions of different cactus species, however that had not been demonstrated yet.
Less mescaline = effects described as more energetic.
More mescaline = effects described as heavy or intense.
Having experimented for years with cactus and extract, and with and without harmala alkaloid sources mind you, I can't ascribe any distinction of action towards them that is unexplainable as a result of the dose.
I am also familiar with sulfate salts of cactus alkaloids that are less active at 700mg than others are at 200mg. PC is notorious for this.
However as experience accumulates the subjective differences between species, specimens and situations becomes increasingly evident as no more than a dose dependant relationship between effects and the amount of mescaline ingested.
Perhaps there will be evidence one day of pharmacologically distinct actions of different cactus species, however that had not been demonstrated yet.
Less mescaline = effects described as more energetic.
More mescaline = effects described as heavy or intense.
Having experimented for years with cactus and extract, and with and without harmala alkaloid sources mind you, I can't ascribe any distinction of action towards them that is unexplainable as a result of the dose.
I am also familiar with sulfate salts of cactus alkaloids that are less active at 700mg than others are at 200mg. PC is notorious for this.
I'm not so sure that the qualitative differences can be reduced down simply to mescaline levels when it comes to tea or eating raw cactus or with any method of ingestion that preserves the full alkaloid profile. I would also be very hesitant to assert that enough data has been gathered about this to definitively settle the matter either way.
But since you are referring to your personal experience, and I am referring to mine, how would you eplain this?: I have before taken a small amount of bridgesii which resulted in me feeling very nauseous and having muscle contractions, but I did not trip hard at all. On other occassions I have taken larger amounts of pachanoi and not felt strong nausea or had muscle issues, but tripped at good strength. Surely there was something in the bridgesii other than mescaline causing those issues.
But since you are referring to your personal experience, and I am referring to mine, how would you eplain this?: I have before taken a small amount of bridgesii which resulted in me feeling very nauseous and having muscle contractions, but I did not trip hard at all. On other occassions I have taken larger amounts of pachanoi and not felt strong nausea or had muscle issues, but tripped at good strength. Surely there was something in the bridgesii other than mescaline causing those issues.
Hi Grey Fox. There are indeed other chemicals in these plants but as you referenced the cactus analysis thread you’ve also seen that the majority of the plants alkaloids are mescaline (with a few exceptions). Since there has not been any real work done isolating and bioassay on the related phenethylamines you can’t say with any confidence wether they do much of anything to the experience. With the same gesture we can not deny that they contribute something however this is why I say you need to be aware of your own personal bias in the absence of reliable study.
Yes Antichode thanks for that helpful way of framing things.
I'm not trying to dismiss what anyone else is saying here. Rather I'm trying to figure these things out and share what I have observed so far. I enjoy hearing other perspectives and mulling it all over. Bridgesii has basically been a good "booster additive" to pachanoi tea for me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the science behind it but its been working out nicely.
I'm not trying to dismiss what anyone else is saying here. Rather I'm trying to figure these things out and share what I have observed so far. I enjoy hearing other perspectives and mulling it all over. Bridgesii has basically been a good "booster additive" to pachanoi tea for me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the science behind it but its been working out nicely.
The results with bridgesii and pachanoi seem easily explained as mescaline dose dependant.
A smaller total amount in a concentrated form verses a larger total amount in a dilute form.
And it seems like PC not pachanoi per say because pachanoi is often (in the case of legit pachanoi) incredibly similar to bridgesii in requiring a dose of only around 2 to 3 hundred grams for strong effects while PC needs 2 to 3 thousand grams for similar effects. All due to mescaline concentration.
Faster administration and absorption cause stronger nausea even with lower total amounts of mescaline.
A smaller total amount in a concentrated form verses a larger total amount in a dilute form.
And it seems like PC not pachanoi per say because pachanoi is often (in the case of legit pachanoi) incredibly similar to bridgesii in requiring a dose of only around 2 to 3 hundred grams for strong effects while PC needs 2 to 3 thousand grams for similar effects. All due to mescaline concentration.
Faster administration and absorption cause stronger nausea even with lower total amounts of mescaline.
Besides nausea would that principle also apply to other negative effects like muscle spasms, feeling very cold, shivers, heaviness, sleepiness, etc.? Those negative physical side effects seem strongest during come up and into the start of the peak. Is all that explained by fast absorption?
At very high doses with bridgesii it is also possible to experience blurred vision and a heavy mental daze during that time.
All these negative effects seem to be accentuated by something extra in bridgesii that also contributes a greater intensity to the mental and visual aspects of the trip. At least that has always been my thinking. That it why the ideal tea seems to be one that is mostly made of good pachanoi but with some bridgesi added in.
At very high doses with bridgesii it is also possible to experience blurred vision and a heavy mental daze during that time.
All these negative effects seem to be accentuated by something extra in bridgesii that also contributes a greater intensity to the mental and visual aspects of the trip. At least that has always been my thinking. That it why the ideal tea seems to be one that is mostly made of good pachanoi but with some bridgesi added in.
Muscle tremors, strange feeling of sleepiness, coldness in extremities are all common on come up for psychedelics. LSD, Mushrooms, Mescaline etc
Many of them including mescaline resemble catecholamines and have numerous effects on the body. Anxiety is also common early on.
The state of expectation of effects also causes an intense focus where the subject focuses strongly on somatic sensations, later the psychological effects promote increased relaxation and distract a person from the somatic sensations.
Stronger experiences and doses typically increase those effects, shaking and muscle tremors are very common. Chills and shivering likewise.
Many of them including mescaline resemble catecholamines and have numerous effects on the body. Anxiety is also common early on.
The state of expectation of effects also causes an intense focus where the subject focuses strongly on somatic sensations, later the psychological effects promote increased relaxation and distract a person from the somatic sensations.
Stronger experiences and doses typically increase those effects, shaking and muscle tremors are very common. Chills and shivering likewise.
I partly agree with 0_o, much of the trip variations we see are inherent in the psychedelic experience itself. I can take the same exact material twice and get two distinctly different trips. This should always be kept in mind when evaluating source materials.
However, unless its refined to mescaline and nothing else, the accessory alkaloids really do have an effect of their own. With peyote the accessory alkaloids were trialed as pharmaceutical drugs in their own right and few people argue that a peyote trip differs from a san pedro trip only in context.
Some of the simpler phenethylamines in cacti have an activity of their own or in combination with other things. You can find reports of bodybuilders and drug nerds mixing things like phenethylamine, hordenine, and tyramine, sometimes with included caffeine, to get different buzzes. Such are often the core of 'pre-workout' stimulants used by athletes.
When I combine one tenth of a dose of pure mescaline with a strong cup of coffee I get a mild psychedelic feel with a stimulant effect equal to the coffee, but somewhat longer lived. When I do that with unrefined orange mescaline I get similar but with a distinctly stronger stimulant effect. When I do that with the isolated bridge X pach accessory alkaloids containing minimal mescaline it no longer feels psychoactive at all and the same dose or even a smaller dose feels much too stimulating.
Others have reported similarly in regards to isolated accessory alkaloids.
I dont like PC, not because its so weak or so less visual or because there's some feeble and low quality evidence of DMPEA neurotoxicity in rats, but because it produces a feeling like the treble nob on all my senses has been turned up to maximum. I get a massive body high and a feeling like my senses are being flooded, without any substantial traditional psychoactive effect.
Cacti are more than just mescaline. Although it can be tricky to be sure what differences are inherent in a clone/species and what is just coincidence from standard variability of trips. Only once have I seen someone isolate the accessory alkaloids and experiment with them in isolation and in recombination with mescaline. I've done the former a little but not enough yet. At some point I'd like to try cactus accessory alkaloids added to pharma with no mescaline. I think accessory alkaloid pharmacology is an area worthy of exploring. Save the goo from those ketone washes, people! :twisted:
Different people metabolize drugs differently, as well. Specific phenethylamines or THIQs may hit different people differently or not at all. Even mescaline itself has different effects in different people.
However, unless its refined to mescaline and nothing else, the accessory alkaloids really do have an effect of their own. With peyote the accessory alkaloids were trialed as pharmaceutical drugs in their own right and few people argue that a peyote trip differs from a san pedro trip only in context.
Some of the simpler phenethylamines in cacti have an activity of their own or in combination with other things. You can find reports of bodybuilders and drug nerds mixing things like phenethylamine, hordenine, and tyramine, sometimes with included caffeine, to get different buzzes. Such are often the core of 'pre-workout' stimulants used by athletes.
When I combine one tenth of a dose of pure mescaline with a strong cup of coffee I get a mild psychedelic feel with a stimulant effect equal to the coffee, but somewhat longer lived. When I do that with unrefined orange mescaline I get similar but with a distinctly stronger stimulant effect. When I do that with the isolated bridge X pach accessory alkaloids containing minimal mescaline it no longer feels psychoactive at all and the same dose or even a smaller dose feels much too stimulating.
Others have reported similarly in regards to isolated accessory alkaloids.
I dont like PC, not because its so weak or so less visual or because there's some feeble and low quality evidence of DMPEA neurotoxicity in rats, but because it produces a feeling like the treble nob on all my senses has been turned up to maximum. I get a massive body high and a feeling like my senses are being flooded, without any substantial traditional psychoactive effect.
Cacti are more than just mescaline. Although it can be tricky to be sure what differences are inherent in a clone/species and what is just coincidence from standard variability of trips. Only once have I seen someone isolate the accessory alkaloids and experiment with them in isolation and in recombination with mescaline. I've done the former a little but not enough yet. At some point I'd like to try cactus accessory alkaloids added to pharma with no mescaline. I think accessory alkaloid pharmacology is an area worthy of exploring. Save the goo from those ketone washes, people! :twisted:
Different people metabolize drugs differently, as well. Specific phenethylamines or THIQs may hit different people differently or not at all. Even mescaline itself has different effects in different people.
Well guys, gave it a try, 200ish mg harmala extract 30 min before and a thin melted wax bridgesii cut of 18-20 inches. Half dollar diameter on average, consumed as a tea.
Felt poisioned about 15 minutes in. Got in the shower and vomited. Immediate regret, which is very strange. Abdominal exhaustion from the ingested chemicals. Got in bed and received a massive amount of info. Very sad, overwhelming and depressing. Tuned into all the suffering going on in the world and how it’s a train wreck that we die. Started feeling bad for people who make “bad decisions” due to just being, human I guess.
This has been a common theme lately with the few dmt attempts I’ve tried (oral) so apparently I’m in some sort of funk. The physical pain wasnt in my head. I really havn’t thought it through on what exactly is going on but my advice would be to take the harmalas and then sip the tea very slowly. The tea was only in me 15 minutes and 12 hours later I can still feel residual effects.
For the record the cacti I used is a significantly above average clone and hindsight being 20/20 that cutting was 2 powerful trips or 3 significant ones. I’ve never had cacti turn on me before like that physically but it was definately too much and that’s my lack of precision. I really don’t know whether the negative is the psyches way of saying go live and come back later or if God forbid something is in the air I’m tuning into. It was very clear in it’s suggestion that I quit nicotine, coffee (at the quantity I tend to drink it), and kratom which I thought was semi paradoxical that a plant would tell me to lay off all the plants, but I get it. My usage has been way beyond “required”.
I feel like I’m in some sort of trouble.
Felt poisioned about 15 minutes in. Got in the shower and vomited. Immediate regret, which is very strange. Abdominal exhaustion from the ingested chemicals. Got in bed and received a massive amount of info. Very sad, overwhelming and depressing. Tuned into all the suffering going on in the world and how it’s a train wreck that we die. Started feeling bad for people who make “bad decisions” due to just being, human I guess.
This has been a common theme lately with the few dmt attempts I’ve tried (oral) so apparently I’m in some sort of funk. The physical pain wasnt in my head. I really havn’t thought it through on what exactly is going on but my advice would be to take the harmalas and then sip the tea very slowly. The tea was only in me 15 minutes and 12 hours later I can still feel residual effects.
For the record the cacti I used is a significantly above average clone and hindsight being 20/20 that cutting was 2 powerful trips or 3 significant ones. I’ve never had cacti turn on me before like that physically but it was definately too much and that’s my lack of precision. I really don’t know whether the negative is the psyches way of saying go live and come back later or if God forbid something is in the air I’m tuning into. It was very clear in it’s suggestion that I quit nicotine, coffee (at the quantity I tend to drink it), and kratom which I thought was semi paradoxical that a plant would tell me to lay off all the plants, but I get it. My usage has been way beyond “required”.
I feel like I’m in some sort of trouble.
Good report Asher7. What impact do you think the harmala had on the overall experience? It would be interesting to consume a similar sized cutting of that same clone one day without the harmala and compare the effects. Is 200mg considered a large dose of harmala? Even without harmala, high doses of bridgesii can be hard on the body and challenge the psyche.
Sounds like you were left with a lot to think about from that trip. I know its little consellation right now, but challenging trips often offer the greatest long term rewards as you slowly unpack the meaning over time. Sounds like you're already starting to do that. Thanks for sharing the report.
Sounds like you were left with a lot to think about from that trip. I know its little consellation right now, but challenging trips often offer the greatest long term rewards as you slowly unpack the meaning over time. Sounds like you're already starting to do that. Thanks for sharing the report.
Interesting experience, Asher. It sounds as if you're at a place I was at one point.
I smoked tobacco, I drank lots of coffee in an inconsistent pattern, I smoked far too much cannabis, I had a truly horrible diet, and I was depressed. Psychedelics kept telling me I needed to improve these things, but I was stubborn, I actually stopped using psychedelics for some years just so they would stop nagging me to improve. It was like breaking up with a girlfriend because she insisted on no more smoking. Eventually I dedicated to finally improve those things. When I had made some clear progress and maintained the intention to continue I used psychedelics again and they were then happy
If your in the northern hemisphere this is the perfect time of year to quit smoking. Go cold turkey and if anyone not a close friend notices you seem to be sick you can tell them its a cold or mild flu. Also, in winter you're less likely to spend much time with friends outdoors and that means less standing next to smoking friends.
For coffee, if you don't intend to quit entirely I'd suggest establishing a very stable intake. The withdrawals for me last 5 days or about, but it takes the body much longer than that to truly adjust to a new intake level. If I wanted to reduce to one cup a day I'd use one cup of half-caffeine coffee per day for the first two weeks to get the body to adjust faster, and then switch to one cup a day with no extras. Inconsistency seems to be what makes people groggy and headache ridden all the time. When I decided to get caffeine under control I stopped all caffeine for 2 months and then began using caffeine just once per week, for me this is the maximum I can use without addiction.
I found it interesting that you took harmalas 30 minutes before cactus. I typically ingest them concomitantly. I suspect the interaction is more in the blood/brain rather than in the gut. Its something I've been wanting to experiment with to see the effects. Harmala predose, concomitant dose, post dose, and redose with identical mescaline.
I wish I could dedicate a day every week to psychedelics to explore these things, but I am not a wealthy hermit.
If anyone has an extra million euros
:lol:
I smoked tobacco, I drank lots of coffee in an inconsistent pattern, I smoked far too much cannabis, I had a truly horrible diet, and I was depressed. Psychedelics kept telling me I needed to improve these things, but I was stubborn, I actually stopped using psychedelics for some years just so they would stop nagging me to improve. It was like breaking up with a girlfriend because she insisted on no more smoking. Eventually I dedicated to finally improve those things. When I had made some clear progress and maintained the intention to continue I used psychedelics again and they were then happy
If your in the northern hemisphere this is the perfect time of year to quit smoking. Go cold turkey and if anyone not a close friend notices you seem to be sick you can tell them its a cold or mild flu. Also, in winter you're less likely to spend much time with friends outdoors and that means less standing next to smoking friends.
For coffee, if you don't intend to quit entirely I'd suggest establishing a very stable intake. The withdrawals for me last 5 days or about, but it takes the body much longer than that to truly adjust to a new intake level. If I wanted to reduce to one cup a day I'd use one cup of half-caffeine coffee per day for the first two weeks to get the body to adjust faster, and then switch to one cup a day with no extras. Inconsistency seems to be what makes people groggy and headache ridden all the time. When I decided to get caffeine under control I stopped all caffeine for 2 months and then began using caffeine just once per week, for me this is the maximum I can use without addiction.
I found it interesting that you took harmalas 30 minutes before cactus. I typically ingest them concomitantly. I suspect the interaction is more in the blood/brain rather than in the gut. Its something I've been wanting to experiment with to see the effects. Harmala predose, concomitant dose, post dose, and redose with identical mescaline.
I wish I could dedicate a day every week to psychedelics to explore these things, but I am not a wealthy hermit.
If anyone has an extra million euros
:lol:
@ Grey, this is all speculation on how the two interacted but my “fact” I’ll present is that the tea, about 3/4 of a 1 cup measuring cup, was only in me 15 minutes, 20 tops before it came back out and I got hit pretty hard. Based on past history, if you puke that fast or even 30-35 minutes in usually there will be the initial ‘electricity’ in the air and the body stimulation, maybe a noticeable shift in thought structure etc, but nothing that would make you do the spins in your bed that causes your blankets to roll around you like a burrito. My hair tends to get a little Albert Einstein when I get a strong experience too, it’s a symptom.
Looking back I’m glad it came back out because it would have been agonizing had it all gotten in my blood. I just wasn’t thinking, I wanted to get in pretty deep but I over shot my eyeballed measurment.
@Elrick, I figured the change happens in the stomach with maoi’s, I thought it was a gut issue. So I looked at it like, when you toss the base into the syrian rue tea and the white of it precipitating washes over the glass, I figured a similar thing was happening in your stomach, just with mao and maoi. So, extract goes into a tiny bit of white vinegar and then tea is mixed in, swirled and swallowed, instead of a capsule. The tea washes your stomach better. I could be entirely wrong but it seems to be a good method, it seems to work. Truthfully I’m not 100% sure.
As far as the psyches highlighting areas of possible improvement, the strange thing is it seems to be ticking them off in order of importance. It was liquor and things and now it’s down to the little things. I understand now how nicotine and coffee can contribute to anxiety and overall grumpy undertones. Luckily I vape, got rid of the cigs so it’s just a matter of slightly decreasing nic levels. With the caffiene, I’d like to switch to something cleaner and more cerebral. I hear yerba mate might be a good choice.
Looking back I’m glad it came back out because it would have been agonizing had it all gotten in my blood. I just wasn’t thinking, I wanted to get in pretty deep but I over shot my eyeballed measurment.
@Elrick, I figured the change happens in the stomach with maoi’s, I thought it was a gut issue. So I looked at it like, when you toss the base into the syrian rue tea and the white of it precipitating washes over the glass, I figured a similar thing was happening in your stomach, just with mao and maoi. So, extract goes into a tiny bit of white vinegar and then tea is mixed in, swirled and swallowed, instead of a capsule. The tea washes your stomach better. I could be entirely wrong but it seems to be a good method, it seems to work. Truthfully I’m not 100% sure.
As far as the psyches highlighting areas of possible improvement, the strange thing is it seems to be ticking them off in order of importance. It was liquor and things and now it’s down to the little things. I understand now how nicotine and coffee can contribute to anxiety and overall grumpy undertones. Luckily I vape, got rid of the cigs so it’s just a matter of slightly decreasing nic levels. With the caffiene, I’d like to switch to something cleaner and more cerebral. I hear yerba mate might be a good choice.
Do you think you'll try to combine cactus and harmala together again? Was it worth doing? I know you only tried it once and it was an imperfect attempt. But do you think it holds the potential to improve the cactus experience somehow?
Oh yeah without a doubt. This time though, I’ll start with 100mg harmala hcl and then just deliberately slow sip the cacti tea and essentially take the Shulgin method of starting ridiculously low and and then add little by little. I consider it a good experience in that I got some good info out of it and now I’m freshly reminded of how easy it is to get careless. I got comfortable and assumed it would go the way I thought, and it didnt.:!:
I would recommend a “buyer beware” warning because the nasuea and body exhaustion (like lactic acid exhustion, as if you went all the way to the breaking point lifting a muscle in the gym) around my abdomen didnt feel good. It felt like a bad, poisioning pain. Usually with cacti, if I do purge which is rare, I just let it go, there’s none of the flu like “sickness”, I just go ok, get up and go purge and that’s that. So the combo could very well be dangerous.
It’s hard to gauge for me because I have to go off just feel and that’s walking blind pretty much. Like, we all know pills and alcohol are terrible but they feel great. And then something like aya I suppose, where you get sick but it’s not “bad” for you. If someone were insistent on trying I would just say start at a dose where you barely get effects or even don’t get effects, just enough to get both in your stomach and see if they react badly and then slowly figure it out from there. Don’t get in a hurry etc.
I would recommend a “buyer beware” warning because the nasuea and body exhaustion (like lactic acid exhustion, as if you went all the way to the breaking point lifting a muscle in the gym) around my abdomen didnt feel good. It felt like a bad, poisioning pain. Usually with cacti, if I do purge which is rare, I just let it go, there’s none of the flu like “sickness”, I just go ok, get up and go purge and that’s that. So the combo could very well be dangerous.
It’s hard to gauge for me because I have to go off just feel and that’s walking blind pretty much. Like, we all know pills and alcohol are terrible but they feel great. And then something like aya I suppose, where you get sick but it’s not “bad” for you. If someone were insistent on trying I would just say start at a dose where you barely get effects or even don’t get effects, just enough to get both in your stomach and see if they react badly and then slowly figure it out from there. Don’t get in a hurry etc.
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