Seven
Rising Star
You made it onto DoseNation as well.
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Changa on reality sand wich
- Thread starter Dorge
- Start date
Dr Sway said:
well you got that right... lol
I still go by the definition though...
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See synonyms at development.
1. The process of developing.
2. Gradual development.
In which the subject of changa can definitely apply.
but your right people will debate that for sure.
wow dose nation too... thats great!
Wow... talk about some hostility...
SWIM has gotten some pretty threatening emails about the site from more fundamentalist ayahuasca folks. Very insulting...
People amaze me. Makes me sad... people really gete threatened by this. What I am finding too is that a big part of why changa is so threatening to the ayahuasca folks is that they are really politically motivated to disconnect smoked DMT from ayahuasca completely. This is a really big thing on the ayahuasca forum. They liken DMT to elf crack... or cocaine and they think it will ruin their chances to getting ayahuasca fully legalized. SWIM was accused of doing this too... why..... why... are people so dense...
What is really interesting is that people desacrilize the DMT experience. If it is an extract its bad... extracted DMT is no different then aspirin. This whole attempt to create two distinct sides, those for DMT and those for ayahuasca is their political agenda... this is at the heart of why so many people frown on changa me thinks.
its just based on so much ignorance~!
SWIM has gotten some pretty threatening emails about the site from more fundamentalist ayahuasca folks. Very insulting...
People amaze me. Makes me sad... people really gete threatened by this. What I am finding too is that a big part of why changa is so threatening to the ayahuasca folks is that they are really politically motivated to disconnect smoked DMT from ayahuasca completely. This is a really big thing on the ayahuasca forum. They liken DMT to elf crack... or cocaine and they think it will ruin their chances to getting ayahuasca fully legalized. SWIM was accused of doing this too... why..... why... are people so dense...
What is really interesting is that people desacrilize the DMT experience. If it is an extract its bad... extracted DMT is no different then aspirin. This whole attempt to create two distinct sides, those for DMT and those for ayahuasca is their political agenda... this is at the heart of why so many people frown on changa me thinks.
its just based on so much ignorance~!
clouds
Human
Isn't Changa just (<-- excuse the word) another way to experience DMT?
From what I have read in the forum, pharmahuasca, changa, vaporized DMT, Ayahuasca and even some joints with DMT are different ways to experience DMT. Some people like Changa, others Ayahuasca, others both. Other like to smoke DMT while on mushrooms or LSD. I don't see why they feel threatened. I bet some of them would like it as well.
I gotta say tho, that the title: "Changa: The evolution of Ayahuasca" is not the nicest (for them). I think (in a very very simplistic sense) that they could be receiving a message like, sort of "Ayahuasca is BS now, this changa thing is the new kid on the block, shhhmoke it!" ( I repeat, some of the Ayahuasca fans may feel like Ayahuasca is not that special after all and that some people are waaay more advanced than them... but yet... here I see that changa smokers still consider Ayahuasca a very special thing).
I could imagine someday a title called "Pharmabots: The evolution of DMT"... and some here would be outraged hahaha:
- "No, no... my spirit molecule! Why!? This nano-bots are not sacred, and how the hell can they keep someone in hyperspace for as long as they want, why are these AI Nano-bots learning how to operate the SNC."
Lets not go THAT far... just image another drug-designer creating a drug or a mixture even more hyperstrong than DMT.... stuff like that.
I think Dorge / the avant-garde / the designers will succeed. I really hope they do.
I don't think people will eventually stop drinking Ayahuasca, but I believe more and more will be smoking Changa. And then, yet new things and techniques will be invented and people will explore that and so forth and so on. Ha... same old story... conservatives vs avant-garde... even inside the "entheogenic scene".
Anyway, good luck Dorge. I don't believe phens, tryps or opioids are "sacred" but I wish you luck and all the best in your research.
What you are doing is admirable. ¡Me quito el sombrero!
From what I have read in the forum, pharmahuasca, changa, vaporized DMT, Ayahuasca and even some joints with DMT are different ways to experience DMT. Some people like Changa, others Ayahuasca, others both. Other like to smoke DMT while on mushrooms or LSD. I don't see why they feel threatened. I bet some of them would like it as well.
I gotta say tho, that the title: "Changa: The evolution of Ayahuasca" is not the nicest (for them). I think (in a very very simplistic sense) that they could be receiving a message like, sort of "Ayahuasca is BS now, this changa thing is the new kid on the block, shhhmoke it!" ( I repeat, some of the Ayahuasca fans may feel like Ayahuasca is not that special after all and that some people are waaay more advanced than them... but yet... here I see that changa smokers still consider Ayahuasca a very special thing).
I could imagine someday a title called "Pharmabots: The evolution of DMT"... and some here would be outraged hahaha:
- "No, no... my spirit molecule! Why!? This nano-bots are not sacred, and how the hell can they keep someone in hyperspace for as long as they want, why are these AI Nano-bots learning how to operate the SNC."
Lets not go THAT far... just image another drug-designer creating a drug or a mixture even more hyperstrong than DMT.... stuff like that.
I think Dorge / the avant-garde / the designers will succeed. I really hope they do.
I don't think people will eventually stop drinking Ayahuasca, but I believe more and more will be smoking Changa. And then, yet new things and techniques will be invented and people will explore that and so forth and so on. Ha... same old story... conservatives vs avant-garde... even inside the "entheogenic scene".
Anyway, good luck Dorge. I don't believe phens, tryps or opioids are "sacred" but I wish you luck and all the best in your research.
What you are doing is admirable. ¡Me quito el sombrero!
dorge tips his peacock feather hat...
though i must say you are slightly mirroring the miss perception about the evolution of aya... every thing evolves and changes. the only absolute is that there are no absolutes... yaddda yaaddddaaaa yaddddaaa...
also aya people seem to think that dmt is just a clever way to interact with the vine.... ignoring gleefuly the other harmala plants that cause the same effects...
though i must say you are slightly mirroring the miss perception about the evolution of aya... every thing evolves and changes. the only absolute is that there are no absolutes... yaddda yaaddddaaaa yaddddaaa...
also aya people seem to think that dmt is just a clever way to interact with the vine.... ignoring gleefuly the other harmala plants that cause the same effects...
lyserge
polyfather anomalous
Dorge said:
Greetings Sir,
The other night I was hanging out with my roommate and friends, and after learning that some of them were fellow intelligent psychonauts, I offered some of the 1:1 caapi:spice changa I've recently been exploring. Turns out my roommate's girlfriend read *your article* the other night, and was very interested in trying out changa. The weather was perfect - dusk was setting in and a mystic fog was rolling through the jungly forest where I live. 5 of us sat outside on a blanket in the fog, said a soft prayer giving thanks to all the forces that allowed us "travelers from afar" to be there, then, then passed around the pipe. We were all astounded with the messages that were brought back - changa connects us with the Serpent Force in such a powerful way that I feel sure most ayahuasqueros would return to it, again and again. We sure did - probably 4-5 times over and over with the changa, and then headed inside for a very tasty first try of the Blue Lotus + pure spice combination. Kicks to you for writing such a great article that has attracted attention from folks around here. It really sickens me to hear people talk about Elf-Spice as "Deemsters", like something they own, so I'm glad you (and we as a whole) are spreading some respect for the molecule.
Dorge Bows low....
thank you... its been rough trying to be the messenger here... That is a lovely experience... and I am glad I had a part in it some how by writing it and your friend reading it.
And you know that is a damn good point... about the ayahuasceros going back to it... from everything i have learned from other shamans they are total opportunists. if they find something that does the trick and gives them the upper hand... they do it! THEY OVER DO IT... most the time actually. Claudio Narajo gave LSD to some amazonian shamans... they loved it... they asked him to bring back as much as he could... why because it WORKS!
But I dont think many people have read his work... so how would they know... sigh...
I met a guy from arcada in a bar once going off about deemsters and aya... wow............... really it was like watching a child take about huffing gasoline... the aya too...
I also think it is ironic the scene forming around ayahausca in califonia these days... just to vent a bit off topic...
I sent a freind to work with a good good healer... and the people that showed up at these "traditional" ceremonies got out of their hummers with spinners in shipido designer cloths and did hella mad doses of aya yo... mind blowing...
thank you... its been rough trying to be the messenger here... That is a lovely experience... and I am glad I had a part in it some how by writing it and your friend reading it.
And you know that is a damn good point... about the ayahuasceros going back to it... from everything i have learned from other shamans they are total opportunists. if they find something that does the trick and gives them the upper hand... they do it! THEY OVER DO IT... most the time actually. Claudio Narajo gave LSD to some amazonian shamans... they loved it... they asked him to bring back as much as he could... why because it WORKS!
But I dont think many people have read his work... so how would they know... sigh...
I met a guy from arcada in a bar once going off about deemsters and aya... wow............... really it was like watching a child take about huffing gasoline... the aya too...
I also think it is ironic the scene forming around ayahausca in califonia these days... just to vent a bit off topic...
I sent a freind to work with a good good healer... and the people that showed up at these "traditional" ceremonies got out of their hummers with spinners in shipido designer cloths and did hella mad doses of aya yo... mind blowing...
SWIM is starting to feel slightly sad over the site and the article. So many of the people from the ayahausca forum have slammed it and wish to do nothing but attack it that it makes me wish I could just delete the whole thing and move on. I really do not have the time or emotional energy to deal with some of the responses swim has received from that community.
PureMan
Rising Star
Dorge said:
Personally I think it was a great article and think that a lot of people attacked it because they couldn't understand what you meant by evolution. It isn't that it is "better" than ayahuasca, and you weren't claiming that. In my personal opinion, I think it is rather interesting that this article got a rise out of a few people. Some of them seemed to take it personally.. It sounds like some of them may have an elitist mentality.
its true... very eletist... nearing zealotry...
Makes me sad though feels like I am loosing old freinds from over on the ayaforum due to it. Not to mention some new enemies, which i dont like having at all honestly. Telling your truth aint going to make you popular...
People who are really into aya didnt get what I was saying about the evolution thing. They took insult to it. These same folks are really pushing their political agenda of dividing extracted DMT from ayahuasca because it threatens their political agenda to get ayahausca church's legitimized and legalized fully, globally.
I believe that changa is considered a direct threat to them on that note. I also think that having Changa related to ayahuasca at all is something that they wish to push out period.
Dont get me wrong, I would love to see a wide spread ayahuasca religion integrated into western culture... BUT NOT at the expense of trying to convince people that DMT is a "profane drug".
Makes me sad though feels like I am loosing old freinds from over on the ayaforum due to it. Not to mention some new enemies, which i dont like having at all honestly. Telling your truth aint going to make you popular...
People who are really into aya didnt get what I was saying about the evolution thing. They took insult to it. These same folks are really pushing their political agenda of dividing extracted DMT from ayahuasca because it threatens their political agenda to get ayahausca church's legitimized and legalized fully, globally.
I believe that changa is considered a direct threat to them on that note. I also think that having Changa related to ayahuasca at all is something that they wish to push out period.
Dont get me wrong, I would love to see a wide spread ayahuasca religion integrated into western culture... BUT NOT at the expense of trying to convince people that DMT is a "profane drug".
88
Rising Star
You are bringing to light something that is happening; as you say, you are the messenger.
You've plugged in to a major transition in the way that we experience hyperspace - the truth is that Changa makes these journeys much easier, and much more accessible to many more people; and I understand why many who deeply respect Ayahuasca find this scary ... I find it scary too sometimes.
It also no doubt seems to them that this strips the experience of its deep cultural roots, and decontextualises it; and in that respect they are probably right. However, what you have said is that this is an evolution; and you call it the evolution of Ayahausca, which to my mind is a positive view of what is happening - you didn't call it"hey kids fuck the jungle, stick this in your meth pipe!!" - because it is an evolution, a change, and as you say, many ayahuasceros would no doubt see no problem with this, and may indeed adopt it.
But I understand the fear this may hold. and also the implication that a sudden rise in popularity may result in setting back the legalisation of Ayahuasca as a sacrament in the US and Europe... I don't know how hurtful or pointed the responses have been to your article, but it is worth persisting with the dilaogue, saying what you need to say, and trying not to let it get you down.
We have your back
You've plugged in to a major transition in the way that we experience hyperspace - the truth is that Changa makes these journeys much easier, and much more accessible to many more people; and I understand why many who deeply respect Ayahuasca find this scary ... I find it scary too sometimes.
It also no doubt seems to them that this strips the experience of its deep cultural roots, and decontextualises it; and in that respect they are probably right. However, what you have said is that this is an evolution; and you call it the evolution of Ayahausca, which to my mind is a positive view of what is happening - you didn't call it"hey kids fuck the jungle, stick this in your meth pipe!!" - because it is an evolution, a change, and as you say, many ayahuasceros would no doubt see no problem with this, and may indeed adopt it.
But I understand the fear this may hold. and also the implication that a sudden rise in popularity may result in setting back the legalisation of Ayahuasca as a sacrament in the US and Europe... I don't know how hurtful or pointed the responses have been to your article, but it is worth persisting with the dilaogue, saying what you need to say, and trying not to let it get you down.
We have your back
thanks 88!
its true, I am just talking about what is happening I am reporting it... They obviously wish to kill the messenger!
Its true in a way it does strip it of its cultural root and decontextualizes it, but its not doing so to ayahuasca the tea, but to changa the smoke. I see this as a good thing! it allows us to discover our own way of relating to this medicine, to make it our own so to speak. AND THAT IS SCARY! But it is also really exciting, and it gives us this room to explore and be co-creative that we did not previously have with ayahuasca.
If this holds back the progress that they have had in ayahuasca legislation it is because of their own faulty strategy in stigmatizing DMT and its extraction.
Thanks for the pep talk... this has been a very hard process at times. if you want to offer any support any of you I would humbly ask any of you to get onto RS and give your feed back, defend this work!
its true, I am just talking about what is happening I am reporting it... They obviously wish to kill the messenger!
Its true in a way it does strip it of its cultural root and decontextualizes it, but its not doing so to ayahuasca the tea, but to changa the smoke. I see this as a good thing! it allows us to discover our own way of relating to this medicine, to make it our own so to speak. AND THAT IS SCARY! But it is also really exciting, and it gives us this room to explore and be co-creative that we did not previously have with ayahuasca.
If this holds back the progress that they have had in ayahuasca legislation it is because of their own faulty strategy in stigmatizing DMT and its extraction.
Thanks for the pep talk... this has been a very hard process at times. if you want to offer any support any of you I would humbly ask any of you to get onto RS and give your feed back, defend this work!
"It sounds like they don't want others stepping on their turf."
Very much so... it feels rather repressive. But the reality is I think that they just dont want any one complicating their political agenda... DMT was one thing but now that DMT can be smoked WITH B. Caapi leaf or vine extract this highly complicates things for them. All they can do is try to publicly bash any other attempts to talk about it publicly in a positive light or try to present it as being as far from ayahausca as politically possible. Make light of it, make it look inferior to ayahuasca in a tea form ect...
Very much so... it feels rather repressive. But the reality is I think that they just dont want any one complicating their political agenda... DMT was one thing but now that DMT can be smoked WITH B. Caapi leaf or vine extract this highly complicates things for them. All they can do is try to publicly bash any other attempts to talk about it publicly in a positive light or try to present it as being as far from ayahausca as politically possible. Make light of it, make it look inferior to ayahuasca in a tea form ect...