Nereus said:
No offence intended to any of the above changaleros btw, i just find the evaporation shortcuts recommended here to be not the most optimal for the tryptamine admixture in the blend.
I used to take the water bath route myself only to figure out later that it's not such a wise idea. Yeah of course one could use a thermometer and measure the temps in the submerged etoh vessel, keeping it under 50C, but is it worth it in the end?
You are not stating it explicitly, but are you still under the (widespread unfortunately) assumption that dmt freebase boils at 50 degrees centigrade? In any case, it does only so in a particularly high vacuum. Under normal conditions of atmospheric pressure, the boiling point of dmt is somewhere between 360 and 400 degrees centigrade.
Certainly, as I argued earlier in this very topic, some dmt will evaporate even at lower temperatures due to its innate vapor pressure at temperatures below its boiling point, but that is really only relevant in a situation where the dmt has a considerable exposed surface area and a substantial flow of air over this whole surface area. That clearly isn't the case here. There is only a small portion of dmt exposed at the relatively small surface area of the boiling or near boiling ethanol.
Nereus said:
The only time when i'd get my alks(especially freebase dmt, harmalas not at all) close to heat (low or high, doesn't matter) is when i'd be vaping/smoking them.
What makes you assume that freebase dmt is so much more fragile than freebase harmalas?
Nereus said:
Wouldn't you think that the speeding up of the evap process in this way would actually start to degrade some of(maybe even a small part, but not worth it imo) the dmt in changa?
Actually, I recommend it this way because I believe that it in fact causes
less degradation of dmt. I will try to explain why I think this is so:
Under normal conditions, dmt freebase stands to be degraded mostly from oxidation. Heat and light will accelerate this process, but are not the actual driver of it. Atmospheric oxygen and, I assume water (as a catalyst), are the real foes of your dmt. When you let the solvent evaporate slowly, you are giving the dmt an awful lot more exposure to oxygen and water, the latter especially so with hygroscopic solvents. When boiling off the solvent, the solvent vapors will provide a convenient blanket, shielding the dmt in the solution from atmospheric oxygen and water.
Obviously, when you heat dmt to high temperatures, say over 250 degrees centigrade, it will also become progressively more subject to thermal degradation, even without oxygen. But I am not recommending any of that. Boiling ethanol is only 78 degrees centigrade.
The exposure to slightly higher temperatures in the oven is only of short duration and is aimed at improving preservation of the changa by drying it not only of the last traces of ethanol, but also of most water. Dry changa will keep much better and longer than moist changa.
By letting the changa air dry at ambient temperature over extended time, you are allowing a lot of atmospheric water to accumulate in the changa. Additionally, the freebase dmt and freebase harmalas in the wet changa are subjected to atmospheric CO
2. Water and CO
2 form carbonic acid and this will convert the freebase alkaloids into carbonate salts. These salts evaporate less freely and at higher temperatures than the freebases, leading to
more thermal degradation and oxidation when the changa is actually smoked or vaporized.
Nereus said:
The etoh evaps quite fast as is if one increases air circulation around the blend holding vessel. Afaik even with no fan(though one is recommended), a slightly cracked open window does the job in a couple of hours as well. That with some stirring added to expose more surface area after the etoh evaps down under the herb level and it goes pretty well... no need for so much heat.
Really, boiling the solvent off is much faster, by at least an order of magnitude. The boiling will also do much of the stirring. You only need to turn the mix over a few times when the solvent level gets very low. I do not advise to do the evaporation inside.
Nereus said:
In these so called "infusions" the alks penetrate the plant matter only in the case of using thick, spongious herbs/leaf much like mullein or others alike. But for plants/leaf that are thin(caapi leaf i.e) there is no such thing as absorbing actives, or at least very little. In the latter cases, when the etoh evaps off of them most of the dmt remains on the surface area as a thin film(check etoh re-x). That pelicule, if it gets in contact with heat, heated air or whatevs, the actives on the blend are exposed to degradation, more so at 140C.
You have a point about the importance of choosing an optimal herb as a substrate for changa. Though I suspect that by boiling the herb in the solvent, much better diffusion is achieved than by slow room temperature evaporation. Still, if the final oven drying is as short as needed and the the temperature is not excessive, I believe that thermal degradation is not an issue and that the benefits outweigh the burdens.
Also note that the oven only starts out at 140 degrees centigrade in my procedure. Any evaporation of solvent and water from the changa will cool the exposed changa and also the temperature of the oven will drop quite quickly, as it is not being actively heated and the oven door should be ajar.
Nereus said:
That's why my idea and my way of doing this lately is to try and keep heat away as much as possible.Freebase dmt is a sensitive compound. I mean you don't strive for purity, unoxidised spice (some like it pure white in some cases even in changa) etc. to just ignore that in the end.
I think that you are overstating the sensitivity of dmt. For the remainder, my procedure is actually aimed at reducing the exposure of the alkaloids to degradation, for the reasons outlined above. I am not merely trying to cut corners or speed things up, the aim is to prepare a high quality changa, nothing less.
Nereus said:
Afaik if you want your goods as close to their original state as possible, doing things cold is the best way to go.
The problem that I see with that approach is that the prolonged exposure that it requires may actually be more detrimental to the end product.
Some other bits from a later posting:
Nereus said:
Yes, you can. Dmt is readily soluble in room temp etoh. Just stir it a little until it completely dissolves. As well but with lots of stirring it is possible to dissolve in RT etoh at least 75% out of the harmala ratio of your choice.
Thing is you can use warm solvent to dissolve harmalas as their boiling point is way over 200C, heat degradation is impossible to occur with them from warm to almost hot etoh, but not with dmt.
First, the boiling point of harmala freebases is probably way above 400 degrees centigrade, as that of dmt freebase already is over 360 degrees centigrade. Anyway, boiling points of the respective alkaloids are not a relevant issue at all here.
Second, while dmt freebase is indeed highly soluble in ethanol even at room temperature, harmalas are not and you really need to heat the ethanol close to boiling before it actually starts to dissolve useful quantities of harmala freebase. Dissolving the alkaloids is imperative to getting them properly impregnated onto the herbs.
Nereus said:
Bear in mind though that harmala etoh's solubility decreases as it cools, this meaning that some alks will crash back out in the solvent in solid form. So it would not be of much use to heat it if it will only hold a specific amount of harmala alks dissolved at RT. Just stir for a long while without stopping and it should eat most of the harmalas. To such a solution if you have firstly added your spice, then add your herbs and evap.
You do
not want the harmalas to crash out while you are evaporating the solvent. It creates clumps of harmala freebase, which hinders the ability to vaporize them properly and will cause unnecessary thermal degradation when the changa is consumed. By evaporating under boiling conditions, the harmala and dmt freebases are deposited much more evenly and this gives the end result a much higher quality.
Nereus said:
I have to say that i hope my post won't induce confusion or upset anyone, it's just what i feel needed to be said on the subject, be it here or in any other thread regarding the matter.
I'm happy to discuss things, always. It helps us clear up misunderstandings and it provides an open invitation to new viewpoints that help to create an overall greater insight that we all can benefit from.
If any of my points and claims above are unclear or even untrue, feel free to point this out.
