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Chaos and DMT.

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Psilosopher?

Psilosopher?

Don't Panic
Senior Member
OG Pioneer
Senior member
"Nature was constrained. Disorder was channeled, it seemed, into patterns with some common underlying theme." - James Gleick, Chaos



Could chaos be the contributing factor to the DMT experience? We all have similiar trips. We see the same entities. Is this the "underlying theme"?
 
Love that book :) epic brain-bender!
I have found comfort on the precipice of the valley of non-determinism, peeking a glimpse into the void every now and then from my islands of stability.
 
I think there's no doubt that the DMT experience can be chaotic from time to time, but more often than not, it isn't the chaos that catches my attention, but rather the logic and order. I've had experiences in hyperspace where I've been shown how all of hyperspace is unified and interconnected, but it seems that we are rarely granted the scope that can offer that perspective. Everything fits together neatly like multidimensional puzzle pieces. I think what might come across as chaos is the result of our inability to cognitively process the experience. What cannot be understood can easily be lumped in with chaos.
 
Nathanial.Dread said:
Define 'chaos.' If you're using it colloquially, then sure. A lot of trips are unpredictable and hard to understand. I wouldn't call that a 'theme' though, but rather, just a quality of the experience.

If you're using the technical definition (a quality of deterministic systems where, as Edward Lorenz put it, "the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future,") then you're asking a deep question that I cannot answer but would *love* to discuss.

My hunch is yes. I imagine that the DMT state is probably associated with a unique strange attractor in neural phase space that is distinct from other states of consciousness.

Blessings
~ND
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Yeah, i mean Lorenzian chaos. "Sensitive dependence on initial conditions" sounds like set and setting to me, although there could be other factors at play. But on second thought, these factors might just a part of set and setting. I would say someone's neurochemistry is a part of the mind set.

The difficulty here is that trips cannot be measured. The data from EEG and fMRI studies are just as chaotic as the Lorenzian water wheel.

The chaotic nature of DMT is likely to be more complicated than cloud formation, turbulence or the tidal patterns of the ocean. All of these other chaotic systems have non linear equations that can be conceptualised. Gravity, friction and a huge plethora of other factors that come into play.

Lorenz created a simple weather model using only 12 equations. He mimicked both aperiodicity and sensitive dependence on initial conditions using these 12 equations.

Could this also be applied to DMT, with say, an EEG scan? The only EEG scan I saw of DMT reached the Nyquist frequency really rapidly, which correlates with the "blast off".

Is it even possible to create a deterministic model of the DMT experience?

Sorry if i sound like i'm rambling. The more i think about it, the more my head hurts.


Aaaaaand now i don't understand anything anymore. Thanks James Gleick!
 
What if we think of the "initial conditions" as the obscure realms of the unconscious mind? perhaps set and setting is not so much about the outter stimuli but some kind of collective interpretation of human history and experience that could be enconded in us and unlocked by the molecule. So maybe, what drives people on to having resembling figures, patterns and what so not is just a mimic of what has already been somewhat set in stone (i.e. dna) before.
In that sense, maybe it's not so much about a determinist approach to what comes ahead and where could it lead but rather coming back to the source and unveil it's significance to the present time.
 
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