CIELO goo - current best recovery method?

[starbob]

Regarding goo recovery, I saw this was the most recent addition to the CIELO tek wiki:
"...and (3) simply swirl the goo into fresh EA to try to absorb the water and leave crystals behind."
Is this the recommended method at this time?
I searched around the ethyl acetate approach post and it seems like this addition was related to orchidist's results

I certainly have enough other powder to include the goo in a new run's paste if that's best though.

This is my first goo after trying the tek 4 other times where I never had goo form previously. Differences this time from previous runs:
1) 15g powder instead of 20g or 100g
2) bridgesii powder (whole except no spines & wax) instead of PC powder (whole skins only)
3) My fresh EA was moved to a smaller jar
4) used syringes for volume measuring instead of just scaling the water and EA
5) I did a 7th pull I probably shouldn't have bothered with
I didn't see any sediment or droplets form in my combined pulls after ~3hrs.
goo swirl video
I did take care not to over-hydrate my paste, starting out small and increasing by 5mL at at time and ultimately was 15mL less than the tek standard ratio.. but maybe it was still too much. I did use excess citric acid just b/c I was lazy using a 1/4tsp scoop.

 

[Cheelin]

Regarding goo recovery, I saw this was the most recent addition to the CIELO tek wiki:
"...and (3) simply swirl the goo into fresh EA to try to absorb the water and leave crystals behind."
Is this the recommended method at this time?
I searched around the ethyl acetate approach post and it seems like this addition was related to orchidist's results

I certainly have enough other powder to include the goo in a new run's paste if that's best though.

This is my first goo after trying the tek 4 other times where I never had goo form previously. Differences this time from previous runs:
1) 15g powder instead of 20g or 100g
2) bridgesii powder (whole except no spines & wax) instead of PC powder (whole skins only)
3) My fresh EA was moved to a smaller jar
4) used syringes for volume measuring instead of just scaling the water and EA
5) I did a 7th pull I probably shouldn't have bothered with
I didn't see any sediment or droplets form in my combined pulls after ~3hrs.
goo swirl video
I did take care not to over-hydrate my paste, starting out small and increasing by 5mL at at time and ultimately was 15mL less than the tek standard ratio.. but maybe it was still too much. I did use excess citric acid just b/c I was lazy using a 1/4tsp scoop.

That never worked for me, but giving it a try won’t hurt anything. If it doesn’t work, just evap, and move on to next option. I don’t have any goo, so haven’t had chance to try Methyl Ethyl Ketone, which I sometimes see as cleanup method some recco for M HCl, don’t know the specifics on it. I’ve seen mention of also using boiling heptane for cleaning dmt, don’t know specifics or if it would work for M. If you’re up for it, try some of these, will provide more info one way or other, you likely can re-run in powder for some recovery if they don’t work.

I don’t think 1, 3, 5 (7th pull) caused goo, I’ve done them all, no goo. Can’t say for certain on your water (but paste looks fine) or citrate additions, but i doubt those, too; you can test on a 5g run.

Not sure what 4 means, your volumes look fine, i always use syringes for my EA adds (plastic ones wear out fast though, so I have switched to gasketless glass syringes).

The bridgesii one might have something to do with it, there have been others mentioning that.

 

[Cheelin]

The only times I have gotten goo have been during the final filtering (poor washing). When did you first notice yours?

 

[starbob]

"4) used syringes for volume measuring instead of just scaling the water and EA"

Not sure what 4 means, your volumes look fine.

I meant in my past tries I was weighing out the water and EA because I didn't have anything small enough to measure in volume. This time I had 2mL increment syringes to use for both water & EA separately. I thought maybe some tiny chance I contaminated the syringes but they were new.
I don't have MEK or Heptane to experiment, and they're not easy to get in my area.
I first noticed the goo ~20hrs after adding citric acid and cloudiness dissipated mostly. It was just collecting on the bottom in droplets.

 

[Cheelin]

"4) used syringes for volume measuring instead of just scaling the water and EA"

Not sure what 4 means, your volumes look fine.

I meant in my past tries I was weighing out the water and EA because I didn't have anything small enough to measure in volume. This time I had 2mL increment syringes to use for both water & EA separately. I thought maybe some tiny chance I contaminated the syringes but they were new.
I don't have MEK or Heptane to experiment, and they're not easy to get in my area.
I first noticed the goo ~20hrs after adding citric acid and cloudiness dissipated mostly. It was just collecting on the bottom in droplets.

You might try dropping a crystal or two of M into the goo, as a seed.

 

[starbob]

The bridgesii one might have something to do with it, there have been others mentioning that.

I guess I should mention then that this was the Bridgesii variety called "Lee"

 

[starbob]

You might try dropping a crystal or two of M into the goo, as a seed.

Are you messing with me? :d :? I don't know if this is a joke because I'm clueless about chemistry.

 

[Cheelin]

You might try dropping a crystal or two of M into the goo, as a seed.

Are you messing with me? :d :? I don't know if this is a joke because I'm clueless about chemistry.

No joke. Common technique for making crystals is to put a “seed” crystal in the solution.

I just saw your video. Can you decant off most of the EA, and then evap remainder plus goo; see if you can get it to dry?

 

[starbob]

Can you decant off most of the EA, and then evap remainder plus goo; see if you can get it to dry?

OK, first I'll give it another 24hrs to sit and ... gooefy some more.

 

[Loveall]

I agree that the biggest change could be moving to bridgessi. Perhaps it has other stuff besides mescaline that precipitates as an oil citrate.

Do you have more bridgesii powder? Can you try to precipitate with fumaric acid on a test run? Orchidist got xtals with fumaric ad oil with citric Maybe extra alkaloids need fumaric to not oil up. This all speculation, but maybe worth trying.

You can also add Fumaric to your jar with oil and shake it up. It may react with the oil and xtalize, IDK.

 

[starbob]

Unfortunately I don't have anymore of this powder; I made it just to do a small run kind-of hoping to be a sure-thing given bridgesii's generally consistent mescaline potency. I'll have to make more but it will have to be from a different bridgesii variety plant not "Lee".
I also don't have Fumaric but I'll get some why not.

I tried refrigerating the jar to see how it behaved and the goo became much more viscous at the bottom.
Just on a whim I impatiently dropped in another <1/4tsp citric acid and gave a quick stir, and all the extract became a opaque again and dissipated back to clear but now the goo is opaque instead of clear like it was previously. So it should be now <2.5g citric acid for ~150mL extract. Can't tell if it made any MORE goo though.
Leaving it at room temp overnight now and I'll see about decanting tomorrow morning.

 

[_Trip_]

The bridgesii one might have something to do with it, there have been others mentioning that.

I'd have to check my excel sheet, (I don't know where the bloody usb has gone that I had it on). I'm yet to get goo with Bridgesii tried different times of the year now, used fresh dried and older stored material, multiple runs on each cacti and that's over i think 4 different varieties of bridgesii now (would have to double check that though).
Also ran multiple pedro's, peruvianus, hybrid varieties and even a cuzco, I have never personally got goo. In addition, I have used a couple different EA brands.

Could still be a birdgesii thing or could be a storage, paste consistency, EA quality or even moisture issue. Hopefully it'll be figured out soon.


Starbob I would try leaving it for a week and see what happens, I know harmala citrate goo in EA turns from goo to crystal after 24-48hours.

 

[Cheelin]

Won’t hurt to wait.

 

[Loveall]

"4) used syringes for volume measuring instead of just scaling the water and EA"

Not sure what 4 means, your volumes look fine.

I meant in my past tries I was weighing out the water and EA because I didn't have anything small enough to measure in volume. This time I had 2mL increment syringes to use for both water & EA separately. I thought maybe some tiny chance I contaminated the syringes but they were new.
I don't have MEK or Heptane to experiment, and they're not easy to get in my area.
I first noticed the goo ~20hrs after adding citric acid and cloudiness dissipated mostly. It was just collecting on the bottom in droplets.

EA could dissolve syringe plastic and that may cause issues, IDK.

Review ethyl acetate[2] and citric acid[3] safety information. Verify solvent MSDS, plastic compatibility, and clean evaporation.

You can evap EA from a syringe and see if leaves an oily residue behind as a check if you didn't do that yet.

 

[Cheelin]

Fyi,

Syringe brands may vary in quality. I have used a number of chinese & US brands of plastic syringes, they all react, slightly and the same way to EA. By this I mean, that after a few fills with each syringe, the plunger becomes harder to pull/push, then the tip of the plunger arm pops out of the black rubber gasket-tip. I haven’t taken the time to determine if the clear plastic tube is warping or the black rubber gasket-tip of the plunger is deforming. I have used syringes on all my runs and never gotten goo prior to filtering.

I recently switched to glass luer lock syringes, the ones i use have no plastic or rubber components. I have, so far, not been clumsy enough to break them, which turns out to be cheaper in the long run than replacing plastic ones.

You can purchase blunt/indudtrial stainless steel luer lock tips of various diameters to use with them.

Much easier and more versatile than pipettes, imo.

 

[starbob]

EA could dissolve syringe plastic and that may cause issues, IDK.

oof that might be the culprit.. These syringes are Polypropylene, with Isoprene rubber plunger tips. (That seems to be the standard with single use non-medical plastic syringes.) Isoprene / natural rubber has the worst rating for chemical compatibility to ethyl acetate on all of the compatibility charts I just looked up.
I'll do a test as you suggested.
I've also wondered how the seals fare on mason jars and if that's a storage problem in general. I always try not to let any EA come into contact with the lid seals. But even the 'silicone' red seals on some jars I've used with ethyl acetate seem to have dried up rapidly. 2 other jars I had used EA stored in had their seals start peeling from the steel lids...
EDIT: Maybe my lids were just old though

 

[starbob]

...after a few fills with each syringe, the plunger becomes harder to pull/push...

I had that same experience

 

[Cheelin]

EA could dissolve syringe plastic and that may cause issues, IDK.

oof that might be the culprit.. These syringes are Polypropylene, with Isoprene rubber plunger tips. (That seems to be the standard with single use non-medical plastic syringes.) Isoprene / natural rubber has the worst rating for chemical compatibility to ethyl acetate on all of the compatibility charts I just looked up.
I'll do a test as you suggested.
I've also wondered how the seals fare on mason jars and if that's a storage problem in general. I always try not to let any EA come into contact with the lid seals. But even the 'silicone' red seals on some jars I've used with ethyl acetate seem to have dried up rapidly. 2 other jars I had used EA stored in had their seals start peeling from the steel lids...
EDIT: Maybe my lids were just old though

Unless you let the EA sit in the syringe for an extended period, long enuff to be unable to plunge, I seriously doubt that’s your culprit.

On the canning lids, just flip them over and tighten well. Except for, perhaps, major shaking, they’ll be sealed well, certainly well enuff to avoid evap.

 

[Loveall]

There are making jar lids that are more chemical resistant. The CIELO TEK has a picture of them, but they are among other materials, maybe hard to spot. EA is not too harsh o. The standard kinds thought. The more chem resistant lids are more important if you are using acetone (better pictured in the salvinorin TEK).

 

[starbob]

Thanks I didn't know about those kinda lids or flipping standard ones. I'm gonna let the goo sit while I'm out of town a few days and see what happens. I took a look with a 365nm UV cheapo flashlight and noticed the goo was glowy. By eye it's not that blue as my camera caught it.