Cold vinegar soaks much cleaner than boils

[Jagube]

I soaked 85g of ACRB in cold vinegar 3 times (ok, it was 100g initially, but ~15g was bioassayed as a tea, over the course of 3 sessions). It came out very clear. I filtered it and reduced it to 90ml. I let it settle in the fridge and decanted, leaving behind an oily, water-insoluble sediment. This cleared it up even more. It was, however, still astringent.

I transferred it to a 200ml jar, added some salt and based it with lye to pH 12.3. It clouded with tiny crystals, which was reminiscent of the harmala basing of the acidic soup in rue extractions.
My first thought was "Is this DMT?"

I added ~90ml of naphtha and after some mixing, much of the crystals floated to the top (DMT being attracted to naphtha?) forming a layer between the water and naphtha, some sank to the bottom, and a lot of them stayed in suspension, which I didn't wait to let settle.

After each pull, there was less and less of the visible crystals in the aqueous layer.

I backsalted the pulls with vinegar and the first pull was so rich in DMT, it precipitated on the walls of the glass within a couple of minutes. Not as pretty crystals though, but rather small white blobs.

Summary:

1. Cold soaks are much cleaner than boils, making for cleaner extractions.

2. The extractions are so clean that the volume can be reduced significantly (100 ml per 100 g of bark, or even more concentrated) without affecting the extraction. No risk of emulsions (with naphtha anyway), and it's much easier to handle the smaller jars.

3. Now, this needs to be tested further, but an NP solvent may not even be necessary; instead, a rue-style extraction may be performed, whereby the acidic cold soaks are based, then allowed to settle, decanted and filtered - and this may work especially well with smaller water volumes. If this is not clean enough for a desired end product, this may be processed further (mini A/B, re-X etc.). For oral, however, after dissolving in vinegar or similar acid this precipitate may be clean enough.

My intention wasn't to obtain smokable fb, but rather an oral product, so I think I'll just evaporate the backsaltings, reconstitute with water and drink that.

In my next extraction I might see what a rue-style extraction, without an NP solvent produces.

 

[anonhippie]

I got precipitate clumps from an extraction that started with ethanol extract from basified MHRB powder. After letting the ethanol evap I dissolved the goo in hot vinegar and let it sit in the fridge for days and filtered carefully.

Then my notes say:

Basified with NaOH until solution turned milky white and PH strip showed 13. After waiting a while the precipitate clustered together.

Did 5 pulls with a total of 150ml of Hexane. ...

I also noticed the clumps diminish with each pull.

 

[Jees]

Before brewing, I drank cold water extractions (done in fridge) of powdered bark with very potent results. But I think one needs powder for best results in CWE.
Did you have powdered bark Jagube?

Very clear tea indeed, nasty taste yes.
At start, used to pH the steeping water at 3 max 4 with phosphoric acid, not a bad taste.
Never reduced volume for the purpose (didn't want to concentrate the PhosAcid)

I imagine if it's a potent tea, it could be extracted as well.

 

[monomind]

Hi Jagube, Thanks for sharing this. These kind of posts are great for learning more about various aspects of different teks.
I would like to ask you a couple of question if thats ok

1) What is the purpose of adding salt before basifying ?

2) Given that you start with vinegar medium and ends with vinegar medium, isn't the basifying stage redundant ? I mean ( if i understand the theory correctly ) you could just defat the original vinegar pulls with naphtha and get exactly to the same place without using lye at all.

Cheers

 

[dithyramb]

Thank you.

May I ask what are the known and suspected contaminants in ACRB?

 

[Jagube]

Jees, my bark was shredded. I did 3 soaks, the first one 'as is', the 2nd one following a freeze-thaw cycle, and the 3rd one following another freeze-thaw cycle and further shredding in a Nutribullet, which just produced finer pieces, but nothing close to a powder.

Now, I don't know whether that was needed; some of it may have been redundant. According to Mindlusion, just one cold soak, with enough liquid to cover the bark, should remove ~85% of the DMT.
He suggested a long soak, in the order of a month; mine, on the other hand, were short: the 1st one was overnight, the 2nd and 3rd were no more than a couple of days.

More experimentation needed and welcome!

1) What is the purpose of adding salt before basifying ?

To increase ionic strength, which should reduce the number of pull needed. This roughly follows Cyb's Max Ion tek, although I didn't really measure the amount of salt and I don't know how much it contributed.

2) Given that you start with vinegar medium and ends with vinegar medium, isn't the basifying stage redundant ? I mean ( if i understand the theory correctly ) you could just defat the original vinegar pulls with naphtha and get exactly to the same place without using lye at all.

There were two reasons: to remove the astringency caused by the tannins (this could also be done with egg whites, at least to an extent) and to remove the NMT or whatever compound gives it what I perceive as a sweet/artificial feel and perhaps dampens the DMT effects. If I'm not mistaken, naphtha will preferentially pull DMT and not so much NMT.

When I've drank ACRB brews (made with the use of boiling/simmering), I've also experienced unpleasant physical effects at higher doses - waves of terrible nausea that would bring me to a state of panic.
Luckily, the simple cold soaks (without proceeding to NPS extraction) seem to be sufficient to remove whatever constituent is responsible for the nausea. So if someone wants to work with crude ACRB preparations, cold soaks already offer a great qualitative advantage over boiled brews, not to mention saving energy.

My intention for this experiment was to get as much data as possible for minimal work, so I decided to try a crude soak first, test it to see how it differs from brews, and if I still wasn't happy with the result, to proceed to an NP extraction. In this case, I was happy about the lack of nausea, but there was still room for improvement in the astringency and 'sweet feel' department.

May I ask what are the known and suspected contaminants in ACRB?

Not sure, but hope some of the above addresses this question to some extent.

-----------------

Last night I decided to try the extract. Unfortunately the results were confounded by the fact I drank a serving of normal aya (caapi + chali) first, and the ACRB extract 4 hours later.
I drank around 4g worth in the extract (1.5 ml), and washed a glass used in transfers with water and drank the wash water.
A long, powerful and insightful yet gentle experience ensued, which was free from the sweet feel. It was also quite visual, although without a sudden onset, but rather a slow unfolding and the visuals still there 8 hours later. The harmalas may have been responsible for the long duration.

Next time, if I do a rue-style extraction (acid soaks, base, collect the precipitate), it will be interesting to see whether the sweet feel remains.

 

[doubledog]

Seems promising...

I know from experience that if you base acetic saltings from nps (which is pretty clear solution of dmt in water), dmt freebase precipitates as solid, like harmala alkaloids. You can just filter it out.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Cool. I'm guessing this could be applied to MHRB also, thereby eliminating much of the tannin sludge that complicates acidic boils.

Slow drip cold brew like coffee, anyone?

 

[Jagube]

I'm trying this now on MHRB and will report back, the most interesting question being whether DMT crystals can be collected without using an NPS. I'll base the soaks, collect whatever crystals can be collected and do a naphtha pull on the remaining basic soup to see if it yields more DMT.

The bark was finely shredded and I shredded it even more in the blender. The dust may make it messy to filter.

 

[Jozeh]

Thanks for the idea .

Recently tried this with 80ishg of MHRB.

Freeze thawed then finely shredded/almost powdered bark (in this process I noticed some saponins from the mhrb)

24 Hour 50ml 5% acetic acid then topped with water to cover.

Solids filtered through progressively finer filters, set aside.

Based the solution with NaOH. Precip dropped and then went back into solution with increasing PH.

I continued a Limo pull and from 50ishml and retrieved 400mg of clean solids (fewer oils in the limo, less orange tint, some still). Which i washed with IPA.

Unfortunately, I introduced IPA into the soup at some point and had to discard.

So total yield 0.5% 1 Pull.

When basing is it possible to collect when it drops rather than forcing back into solution?

 

[anonhippie]

Jagube, regarding this,

According to Mindlusion, just one cold soak, with enough liquid to cover the bark, should remove ~85% of the DMT.

Do you have links to the original posts referencing this?

 

[Jagube]

Do you have links to the original posts referencing this?

Experiments with a Soxhlet - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

There is only one improvement I've found that makes it worthwhile not to do a STB, but it also requires some planning ahead and patience. Soak MHRB in vinegar for a couple weeks, or a month if you like. Don't heat it. Heating only causes problems in filtration and doesn't improve the extraction any further. After a room temp vinegar soak, filtration is very easy and be done in 5 minutes. I like to use a nylon nutmilk bag. Seems like a single soak like this can extract 85-90% of the alkaloids, maybe more.

 

[dithyramb]

My last two orders of acrb, from different vendors, both turned out to have a "contaminated" energy, to the point of making it impossible for me to use it. I have lately tried simmering without added acid to see if it would make a difference (I had been doing multiples boils with added vinegar before), but it did not. I feel such a destructive effect on my spirit/energy body. I don't feel an incentive to give it another chance with a cold vinegar soak (for a number of reasons)... A striking insight I got has been that I have been getting a basic fragmenting and disconnective effect from acrb since years all along, even if not so obvious as with my latest batches. Perhaps this is to be expected from oral dmt*, something which acrb seems good for, but I feel medicine in the paradigm of traditional ayahuasca is what really helps me, and I am too sensitive to mess with different energies.

*I got reminded of this article, I am not sure if it is related, and even if it is, I am sure the phenomenon is related to acrb and not just dmt.

5-MeO-DMT vs. N,N-DMT: The 9 Lenses

TL;DR Some substances seem to be much better at treating psychological trauma than others, even when they are seemingly similar in nature. We have reason to believe that 5-MeO-DMT is significantly …

www.qualiacomputing.com

DMT comes with a vibratory frenzy that directly causes a lot of knots and tiny stress points throughout your entire experiential field. And to a large extent, how the experience unfolds is the result of you trying to manage all of those knots and stress points to avoid having them accumulate and concentrate in painful ways. The effect of this is that DMT acutely increases attachment to existence and non-existence. You wonder “what am I in this world?” and then cling to it, along with an intense fear of losing yourself in the world of vibration. The fear is quite involuntary and primal. And because you are clinging to who or what you are, there is something that you can lose, and that contributes to the feeling that the stakes are very high

 

[Prima Materia]

Thanks! This is great!

I am wondering - did anyone make any more experiments with the final step ?

Jagube wrote:

3. Now, this needs to be tested further, but an NP solvent may not even be necessary; instead, a rue-style extraction may be performed, whereby the acidic cold soaks are based, then allowed to settle, decanted and filtered - and this may work especially well with smaller water volumes. If this is not clean enough for a desired end product, this may be processed further (mini A/B, re-X etc.). For oral, however, after dissolving in vinegar or similar acid this precipitate may be clean enough.