concept entheogenic church

[travsha]

Another cult in the making....

 

[○]

As should go without saying, the following is entirely my opinion and should be understood as such

Though I feel the more legitimate organizations claiming sacramental entheogen use that are out there, the better chances entheogens have at being accepted as genuine and legitimate religious sacraments.

If that's what you're looking for...good for you, I guess? My drug use is mine and I don't need it to be accepted as/masked as "legitimate religious sacrament".

My drug use is legitimate because I'm an autonomous human being, capable of making my own informed decisions.

My legitimacy and power are derived from my very being, not from some constructed institution designed to dress it up into something that makes other people more comfortable with it. The very premise of this endeavor is a prohibitionist mindset--that our drug use is illegitimate so lets dress it up to make it more respectable. :thumb_dow

Just because an organization plays by the laws of the state does not make it "legitimate" in any context other than the laws of the state. This notion of utilizing "legitimate organizations" to create a haven for users of "legitimate religious sacraments" is little more than deciding to play a game in which you are perpetually looking to make yourself acceptable to others. Count me out.

I honestly think the church of entheogenic gnosis is the most open spiritual organization in existence next to shamanism itself, though a 200mg dose DMT initiation is required of all members at joining, as is daily marijuana use, dedication to non-violence except in self-defense, regular entheogenic exploration, meditation, participation in group entheogenic events, and a meat free diet.

:lol:

Unfortunately, I assume this is not satire?

Is most open spiritual like being the most enlightened or most humble?

Was a 200mg initiation dose of DMT decided on because you all felt it was the dose most likely to leave people feeling vulnerable/traumatized enough to need a church?

Are the rest of the somewhat absurd tenets you propose an attempt to mimic the Neo-American Church?

This pretty much sums it up.

 

[NotTwo]

I think if I were to join any church, it would be this one, entheogenic gnosis. It has truly beautiful and well meaning tenets

But in the end, if you want to follow the truth, you have to follow only your own heart and that means you go alone. Be a lion (as someone once said!), be a light unto yourself.

 

[Koornut]

We don't try to convert others

I do. I think most of us wouldn't be here had someone not taken us under their psychedelic wing in the past.

Id like to highlight this, I feel it was a little glossed over.

The sharing of whatever-this-movement-blah-blah call it what you will; the actual information itself will be watered down, vague-ified and the implications lessened in a group environment.
The student/teacher relationship while slow, is a fantastic model for spreading the psychedelic virus.
I know that implies a sense of servitude/heiarchy but when approached in a mature and respectful manner great things can be done - Aristotle/Socrates/Plato etc.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

We don't try to convert others

I do. I think most of us wouldn't be here had someone not taken us under their psychedelic wing in the past.

No no no, I have no issue with turning people on to psychedelics, I meant we don't try to convert people to our spiritual practice. We are not interested in trying to convince others of the "reality" of our experiences, or of our philosophies and traditions, we are not interested in convincing others of anything, and we are not interested in defending our ideas, practices, and traditions to people who think spirituality is nonsense or to those of other spiritual traditions.

I found spirituality through "recreational" use of psychedelics, I was not trying to have a spiritual awakening, I was just curious, and through innocent experimentation I found entheogenic spirituality, so I have no issue with turning others on to psychedelics, if not spiritually they are psychologically benneficial (if not to the individual than to the species).

I think psychedelics and entheogens have their place equally in recreation, psychology/psychotherapy, pharmocology/medicine and spirituality.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I honestly think the church of entheogenic gnosis is the most open spiritual organization in existence next to shamanism itself, though a 200mg dose DMT initiation is required of all members at joining, as is daily marijuana use, dedication to non-violence except in self-defense, regular entheogenic exploration, meditation, participation in group entheogenic events, and a meat free diet.

:thumb_dow
This is bunkum

200mg via any ROA is ridiculously high for people such as myself who are extremely sensitive to the effects of tryptamines. While physically safe, even an experienced explorer such as myself would be taking their chances with winding up in the ER with such a silly practice. To make this a tenet of a religion is well...

Dum da Dum Dum... :?

Requiring excessive dosing, requiring cannabis use, dictating diet. I thought this was supposed to be an alternative to dogmatic traditions... You will need to seriously overhaul the tenets of your faith if you want my support.

You have every right to disagree with our cultural norms, which is a good indication that this would not be a good organization for you, like the Buddha said "1000 people, 1000 paths", nobody is forcing you to accept our ideas or traditions or even acknowledge our existence, if you don't agree with us you could just simply ignore us.


I don't feel 200mgs is excessive dosing, it's necessary, this is serious stuff, religious initiation is not supposed to be something that is taken lightly, this isn't recreation, and that's the only requirement, a SINGLE 200mg dose DMT initiation. In Pharmocological terms you are still VERY safe at that dose, and set and setting plays into the psychological aspect in the sense where people are expecting to have a life changing experience, anything less than a 200mg dose would be insufficient. I've initiated many people via this method and at this dose, and I've never had a serious incident, there's a good deal of "freak-out" reactions, but nothing out of the realm of safety, there's generally some tears or sealing, sometimes glossolalia, sometimes even shouting or yelling, but in every case the person being initiated never left their seat (or did not move far from it) and was physically and pharmocologically safe at all times, and was also being supervised by very experienced shamans and psychedelicos through the entire process.

As far as the daily cannabis use and diet, those are cultural norms, and are an essential part of living a spiritual existence, we have found that by respecting mother nature and her living creatures, and by consuming cannabis daily, you are able to obtain an entheogenic, positive, compassionate and spiritual psychological state essential for our practice. (If we were to preach compassion to all living creatures and then eat meat we would be hypocrites, so you can see why even though there is no dogma, it would be difficult for you to practice with our church were you to not be following these norms.

There's nothing new about what we are doing, I'm not "making entheogen use into a religion" that was already the case, from the Neolithic and on entheogen consumption was the first religion, and all other faiths are merely the exegesis of the entheogenic experience. We are talking spirituality or religion and removing EVERYTHING except for the direct contact with God and non-physical/after death states through entheogens.

It's called the "church of entheogenic gnosis" because we take entheogens to obtain knowledge or "gnosis" and Part of the gnosis we have obtained involves respecting nature, earth and animals, and having compassion for all living beings....

All of the cultural norms are included for very specific reasons, this is not a church on how to take psychedelics, this is a spiritual practice concerned with living a positive, happy and karmically sound life, as well as preparation for and exploration of after-death and non-physical states. the fact that we use entheogens should be inconsequential to the fact that we are practicing traditions involved with the origins of spiritual awareness, and can directly contact divine entities as well as travel through the door which the dead pass daily, only to return with gnosis to incorporate into our lives and into our preparations for the conscious existence beyond our physical bodies.

Again, we are basically practicing shamanism, so when you hear Gordon wasson describe Maria Sabina and the psilocybe religion of the remote mountains of Mexico, or Richard Evans schultes describing the religion of ayahuasca, DMT snuff, and mescaline (San Pedro) from south America, or when you hear natives from across the globe describe how they and their ancestors use entheogens to practice "shamanism" or religion, when you hear these things you are hearing descriptions of the foundations of the church of entheogenic gnosis, only we have united the traditions and techniques, incorporated influences from other traditions from across the globe and incorporated the pantheon of modern knowledge into this archaic practice.

Your entitled to your criticisms, and as we said, we prefer to be left alone and have no interest in convincing anybody of anything or converting anybody to anything.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

As should go without saying, the following is entirely my opinion and should be understood as such

Though I feel the more legitimate organizations claiming sacramental entheogen use that are out there, the better chances entheogens have at being accepted as genuine and legitimate religious sacraments.

If that's what you're looking for...good for you, I guess? My drug use is mine and I don't need it to be accepted as/masked as "legitimate religious sacrament".

My drug use is legitimate because I'm an autonomous human being, capable of making my own informed decisions.

My legitimacy and power are derived from my very being, not from some constructed institution designed to dress it up into something that makes other people more comfortable with it. The very premise of this endeavor is a prohibitionist mindset--that our drug use is illegitimate so lets dress it up to make it more respectable. :thumb_dow

Just because an organization plays by the laws of the state does not make it "legitimate" in any context other than the laws of the state. This notion of utilizing "legitimate organizations" to create a haven for users of "legitimate religious sacraments" is little more than deciding to play a game in which you are perpetually looking to make yourself acceptable to others. Count me out.

I honestly think the church of entheogenic gnosis is the most open spiritual organization in existence next to shamanism itself, though a 200mg dose DMT initiation is required of all members at joining, as is daily marijuana use, dedication to non-violence except in self-defense, regular entheogenic exploration, meditation, participation in group entheogenic events, and a meat free diet.

:lol:

Unfortunately, I assume this is not satire?

Is most open spiritual like being the most enlightened or most humble?

Was a 200mg initiation dose of DMT decided on because you all felt it was the dose most likely to leave people feeling vulnerable/traumatized enough to need a church?

Are the rest of the somewhat absurd tenets you propose an attempt to mimic the Neo-American Church?

Everything you caressed already had an explanation posted prior to this, I thought I made it pretty clear, but apparently am still being misunderstood.

No, not sataire, this is an actual spiritual organization.

We are the most open tradition since shamanism in terms of doctrine, dogma, and guidelines. That was what was said before, and it is, it's basically shamanism, only we are not healers.

I don't think there's anything absurd about our traditions, most of which date from pre-history.

We are not trying to mimic anything, we took the entheogens and live by the gnosis obtained.

We practice fierce intellectual, philosophical, and spiritual self-reliance, the "tenets" as you call them are simply cultural norms, not requirements.

We all came to our religious view regarding entheogens independently, the purpose of the organization is to have a tight-knit community of people using the same techniques and traditions in spiritual practice there to share with each other, guide each other, and teach each other along our spiritual journeys, it's a community of like minded people on a similar spiritual path, and honestly it's been an invaluable resource for me to have this community.


Again, nothing is "required", it's a choice to join, you should already be experienced and well educated with entheogens prior, so there's no surprises, your told what we do and why, and you already have affinity for the community, if you don't agree you simply ignore us, nobody is forcing you to practice our traditions or listen to our ideas, and if it's something you are not interested in or open to, than its as simple as going about your life, your entitled to disagree, which again would indicate that this would not be the proper spiritual practice for you...we have no interest in converting anybody or convincing anybody of anything.

I'm going to define dogma quickly:

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true -Wikipedia

We are a dogma free tradition by this definition.




-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

We don't try to convert others

I do. I think most of us wouldn't be here had someone not taken us under their psychedelic wing in the past.

Id like to highlight this, I feel it was a little glossed over.

The sharing of whatever-this-movement-blah-blah call it what you will; the actual information itself will be watered down, vague-ified and the implications lessened in a group environment.
The student/teacher relationship while slow, is a fantastic model for spreading the psychedelic virus.
I know that implies a sense of servitude/heiarchy but when approached in a mature and respectful manner great things can be done - Aristotle/Socrates/Plato etc.

I agree with you here, and believe me, there are no "teachers" or "students", we are all equal, there is no hierarchical power structure, there's no "head" or "leader", we are a community of equals.

the initiation is done alone, I mean there will be what ever people you want to have with you there, but you are the only one who smokes. The others are there for support and supervision, not as teachers or as people in an authoritative position. Though ayahuasca is frequently used in groups as is mescaline.

The majority of the work is done alone, 75% of the time that I take psychedelics I do it alone, though I still enjoy having the church to discuss my solo experiences with as a means of aide in processing, and it's support from people who really know entheogens and more importantly really know me.

I can't understand people's backlash here's (at least not if they actually read the things I have written here about it), all of the cultural norms are positive things intended to improve your life as well as the lives of the people around you, the rest of it involves entering non-physical, after-death, and spiritual states through entheogens as a means of preparation for and understanding of the conscious existence that waits after death.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Another cult in the making....

Actually our traditions are a compilation of ancient shamanic techniques, most known since before the Neolithic. It's defiantly not "another cult in the making" it's actually the oldest spiritual tradition known to humanity...

-eg

 

[travsha]

Does not strike me as shamanic, but if you say so.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Does not strike me as shamanic, but if you say so.

The only difference between what we are doing and shamanism is shamanism is centered on healing.

We are practicing entheogenic shamanism. Meaning we derive entheogenic and spiritual knowledge from entheogenic plants and compounds, just as shamans have done since the start of human history, now, we incorporated the accumulated knowledge and practices from shamanic traditions globally and incorporated it into a modern entheogenic shamanic practice.

Here's Wikipedia's information on "entheogen"

An entheogen ("generating the divine within")[4] is a chemical substance used in a religious, shamanic, or spiritual context[5] that may be synthesized or obtained from natural species. The chemical induces altered states of consciousness, psychological or physiological (e.g., bullet ant venom used by the Satere-Mawe people). Entheogens can supplement many diverse practices for transcendence, and revelation, including meditation, yoga, and prayer, psychedelic and visionary art, chanting, and music including peyote song and psytrance, traditional medicine and psychedelic therapy, magic, and psychonautics.

Entheogens have been used in a ritualized context for thousands of years; their religious significance is well established in anthropological and modern evidences. Examples of traditional entheogens include psychedelics like peyote, psilocybin mushrooms, and ayahuasca, psychedelic-dissociatives like Tabernanthe iboga, atypical psychedelics like Salvia divinorum, quasi-psychedelics like cannabis and Ipomoea tricolor, deliriants like Amanita muscaria. Traditionally a tea, admixture, or potion like ayahuasca or bhang have been compounded through the work of a shaman or apothecary -Wikipedia

So by definition we are an organization based on entheogenic shamanism.

If you could point out what aspects you feel do not relate to shamanism I would be glad to elaborate.

-eg

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I'm going to define dogma quickly:

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true -Wikipedia

We are a dogma free tradition by this definition.

What happens if someone disobeys your rules?

What if they forget to smoke their daily weed, or accidentally eat meat? What if they only dose 50mg DMT?

Also, 200mg is an absurd dose. If you are seriously dosing or "initiating" people to DMT at that dose, you really need to reconsider your actions. You could end up doing considerable harm (to say nothing of the fact that 200mgs is just wasteful).

:!:
Check yourself before you wreck yourself (or more probably someone else, which is the real problem)

 

[Muskogee Herbman]

I kinda wanna quit smoking pot now

 

[Seagull]

An awsome idea to start a legit drug dealing business under the label "spiritual organisation" .

Get everyone hooked up on the magical effects of DMT by giving them high doses. Sweeten it up by nice stories. Pretending that your truth is the only truth..
And then just keep them hooken on DAILY WEED for life?! Wow awsome.
And to limit there spending by crazy diets and stuff?!

All in all, you seem like a very OPEN and SHAMANIC COMMUNITY indeed.
Ohh and i think you forgot to mention exactly how you would improve the lifes of your members.

But im sure one of your stories would cover that?

 

[Jees]

The only difference between what we are doing and shamanism is shamanism is centered on healing.

Naive.

Shamanism as documented by anthropology is not only "healing" but as much about teacher-student attitude, a ton of hierarchy, power games, inflicting harm, status, all things that does not fit in your scope or any kind of romanticized view on the matter. Wikipedia sucks.

Don't tell the bad ones are no true shamans, if we go that way better dump the whole discussion at stance. Take a word for all that it includes.

It does not serve very well to equalize and emphases one selves with labels that bulk from a shady history and present, unless one fits right in there perfectly.

I wouldn't have chosen nor 'shamanism' nor 'church', too much stained.

 

[InLaKesh]

And to limit there spending by crazy diets and stuff?!

IMO a vegetarian diet is far from crazy...

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I'm going to define dogma quickly:

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true -Wikipedia

We are a dogma free tradition by this definition.

What happens if someone disobeys your rules?

What if they forget to smoke their daily weed, or accidentally eat meat? What if they only dose 50mg DMT?

Also, 200mg is an absurd dose. If you are seriously dosing or "initiating" people to DMT at that dose, you really need to reconsider your actions. You could end up doing considerable harm (to say nothing of the fact that 200mgs is just wasteful).

:!:
Check yourself before you wreck yourself (or more probably someone else, which is the real problem)

This is not a new organization, we have been doing this for many years, the decision to become an official church was the new concept here.

Those are cultural norms, not rules, if they choose to eat meat or not smoke marijuana it's completely fine, it's YOUR spiritual path, and when you wander from your spiritual commitments YOU are the one who suffers, nobody in the church cares whether you do these things or not, like I said these are cultural norms not rules, it just means if you disagree with all of the cultural norms your going to have a hard time adjusteng to the community and may want to consider another spiritual community that better suits your personal veiws.

200mgs is an entheogenic dose, it's a serious dose and is not to be taken lightly, and if a person does not want to participate that's fine, but just as was done in tribal shamanic communities since pre-history, there is a very serious initiation involved, though I feel it's the safest method available.
(non-entheogenic shamanism relies on ordeal to produce this transformation, so you wander into the wildersess after fasting for several days and endure an ordeal, or in other cultures you pierce the body with hooks and are suspended from your flesh by ropes for an extended period of time, or in other cultures you consume an "ordeal poison" where you think you are going to die, your in so much pain you want to die, but you get better and are transformed as a result, so in comparison to non-entheogenic shamanism, our initiation is SAFE and just as if not far more effective. )

Again initiation is a choice, and a serious spiritual commitment, we have found success in our methods, which are based on ancient shamanic traditions involving DMT initiation with virola snuffs.

-eg

 

[Koornut]

We don't try to convert others

I do. I think most of us wouldn't be here had someone not taken us under their psychedelic wing in the past.

Id like to highlight this, I feel it was a little glossed over.

The sharing of whatever-this-movement-blah-blah call it what you will; the actual information itself will be watered down, vague-ified and the implications lessened in a group environment.
The student/teacher relationship while slow, is a fantastic model for spreading the psychedelic virus.
I know that implies a sense of servitude/heiarchy but when approached in a mature and respectful manner great things can be done - Aristotle/Socrates/Plato etc.

I agree with you here, and believe me, there are no "teachers" or "students", we are all equal, there is no hierarchical power structure, there's no "head" or "leader", we are a community of equals.

the initiation is done alone, I mean there will be what ever people you want to have with you there, but you are the only one who smokes. The others are there for support and supervision, not as teachers or as people in an authoritative position. Though ayahuasca is frequently used in groups as is mescaline.

The majority of the work is done alone, 75% of the time that I take psychedelics I do it alone, though I still enjoy having the church to discuss my solo experiences with as a means of aide in processing, and it's support from people who really know entheogens and more importantly really know me.

I can't understand people's backlash here's (at least not if they actually read the things I have written here about it), all of the cultural norms are positive things intended to improve your life as well as the lives of the people around you, the rest of it involves entering non-physical, after-death, and spiritual states through entheogens as a means of preparation for and understanding of the conscious existence that waits after death.

-eg

I respect someone swimming against the tide
I have a feeling that you are a couple of decades ahead of the times - As community strengthens and central authority wanes in certain parts of the world and of course; psychedelics become as ubiquitous as scratching ones bottom :twisted:
Our species will require centres for integration - the likes of which you are proposing, full of wizards and professors and screwball chefs, artists, musicians, and of course stripper-witches (long story )

Good luck I say!
Keep the doctors close and the profits minimal-to-non-existent and you should break away from the old cult/church status :lol:

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

And to limit there spending by crazy diets and stuff?!

IMO a vegetarian diet is far from crazy...

None of the cultural norms are crazy.

I'm aware the word "church" has negative connotations to most "culture-rejecting westerners", so be sure your not automatically attaching your presumptions to what we are doing...though you have the right to do so, we encourage intellectual self-reliance which means things like this should be questioned

We say we have found spiritual practice that is based on experience rather than exegesis, doctrine, dogma, hierarchical authoritarian power structures, and That relies on fierce intellectual, philosophical, and spiritual self-reliance, we practice compassion for mother earth and all living beings, we practice selflessness, compassion, and rejection of materialism and the egotistical, we try to only embrace the positive, while rejecting the negative and we practice non-violence except in self defense....

We also do not try to convert others, preach, or spread our beliefs. Which is why I have not gone very far to defend anything we are doing, this lifestyle has changed the lives of everybody involved for the better (which is only about 12-25 people involved in the church)

The 200mg DMT dose is necessary, there's a concept in African shamanism known as "breaking open the head" in south American shamanism it's simply "shamanic initiation" and involves experiencing death, dismemberment, resurrection, and rebirth through entheogens, others call it "opening the third eye" or a "peak experience"...we are not describing a drug trip, this is a transformative, life changing event, this is just as serious as your birth and your eventual death, and was derived from south American shamanic traditions involving virola resins.

...and people here will tell you "this is a horrible organization based on doing drugs and exploiting others"



-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

We don't try to convert others

I do. I think most of us wouldn't be here had someone not taken us under their psychedelic wing in the past.

Id like to highlight this, I feel it was a little glossed over.

The sharing of whatever-this-movement-blah-blah call it what you will; the actual information itself will be watered down, vague-ified and the implications lessened in a group environment.
The student/teacher relationship while slow, is a fantastic model for spreading the psychedelic virus.
I know that implies a sense of servitude/heiarchy but when approached in a mature and respectful manner great things can be done - Aristotle/Socrates/Plato etc.

I agree with you here, and believe me, there are no "teachers" or "students", we are all equal, there is no hierarchical power structure, there's no "head" or "leader", we are a community of equals.

the initiation is done alone, I mean there will be what ever people you want to have with you there, but you are the only one who smokes. The others are there for support and supervision, not as teachers or as people in an authoritative position. Though ayahuasca is frequently used in groups as is mescaline.

The majority of the work is done alone, 75% of the time that I take psychedelics I do it alone, though I still enjoy having the church to discuss my solo experiences with as a means of aide in processing, and it's support from people who really know entheogens and more importantly really know me.

I can't understand people's backlash here's (at least not if they actually read the things I have written here about it), all of the cultural norms are positive things intended to improve your life as well as the lives of the people around you, the rest of it involves entering non-physical, after-death, and spiritual states through entheogens as a means of preparation for and understanding of the conscious existence that waits after death.

-eg

I respect someone swimming against the tide
I have a feeling that you are a couple of decades ahead of the times - As community strengthens and central authority wanes in certain parts of the world and of course; psychedelics become as ubiquitous as scratching ones bottom :twisted:
Our species will require centres for integration - the likes of which you are proposing, full of wizards and professors and screwball chefs, artists, musicians, and of course stripper-witches (long story )

Good luck I say!
Keep the doctors close and the profits minimal-to-non-existent and you should break away from the old cult/church status :lol:

Some people are satisfied with reading about "Buddha under the bodhi tree" or "Moses in front of the burning bush" or "arjuna in the arms of vishnu", others must become Buddha under the bodhi tree or Moses in from of the burning Bush, etc...

-----
Baghavad gita

Chapter 11, Verse 7

Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely.

Chapter 11, Verse 8

But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give to you divine eyes by which you can behold My mystic opulence.

····

What arjuna is being told here is that as a conscious being you have access to the after-life, the realms of the gods, alternate dimensions and between the stars, that your conscious and non-physical being is not restricted from travel to these dimensions...

...however you must have "Devine eyes" to see the true form of the universe, now, how does one obtain divine eyes? Entheogens.

·····

After researching all spiritual practices it becomes obvious that all religion is nothing more than the exegesis of the entheogenic experience.


The core of what we are doing is practicing spirituality first hand experiance...

As mckenna describes below we are a group of "Thomas the doubters", we must put our finger in the wound of Christ before we can believe, just as we must take entheogens to experience the spiritual, which is why I say we rely on fierce intellectual, philosophical, and spiritual self reliance....

(Everything else in the church just involves living a positive, compassionate, peaceful, selfless, and moral existence, which you do on your own terms, though it's no coincidence that we all came to similar conclusions involving what is right and wrong.

Any way, here is mckenna describing Thomas the doubter:

:
My favorite story in the Gospel is the story of Thomas the Doubter because, remember, he wasn't present when Christ came to the upper room the first time, after the Crucifixion. And so Thomas came a couple days later and the apostles said to him, "the master was here, he was here," and he said, 'you guys have been smoking too many of these little brown cigarettes from Lebanon, we saw him crucified!" Well, so then Christ (c)ame a second time and Thomas was present and he said, "unless I put my hand into the wound, I will not believe it." So Christ said to Thomas, "come forward, put your hand into my wound," and he did.

Now my interpretation for that Gospel story is that ALONE, of all the apostles, it was Thomas the Doubter who touched the resurrection body because he was the only one who had his ***** together enough to DOUBT! And so if you doubt, they will actually let you put your hand in the wound; if you don't doubt, they will give you any kind of cr@p and send you happily on your way.

Doubting doesn't get rid of the real stuff, becuase the real stuff is REAL. You need a crap detector to get you past all the phony baloney because you know people have been working miracles in the marketplace for millennia - that's just part of what does on in the marketplace - shell games, levitation, rope tricks, regurgitation of objects, it's just ho-hum -terence mckenna