Concept for a Self-Sustaining Hydrogen Engine.

[Aetherius Rimor]

Reducing a complex argument to simplistic has always been the easiest way I have to teach people incapable of understanding the complex.

As for your assertion that it's been disproven, I can't falsify that with my limited knowledge, however going by teachings of chemistry professor. Of course I will never make the statement that even someone who spent their life dedicated to a subject can't be wrong since anyone can make mistakes.

However you're still leaving out the energy required to produce the proposed resonant frequencies, or bring in the different materials required to reduce energy of conversion.

If you're not talking about a closed system, then what is being brought in from the outside of the system is providing the energy to move the vehicle, and makes this system not purely "self-sustaining" since once this outside replaced material no longer exists, it ceases.

So the definition of what is being tried (self-sustaining) needs to be explained better, or exchanged with a more appropriate phrase.

If this is in fact a way at better energy storage in the form of hydrogen rather than batteries, that's a different matter, but the original statement was for "self-sustaining". Proving that means a closed system. Again... unless my understanding of "self" meaining without outside assistance is invalid.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

Oh, and as far as catalysts go that reduce the energy of a conversion process, you're still using the energy stored in the bond of the catalyst's molecules. The energy for creation of more of the catalyst + energy for creation of H2 from H2O would still be more than the energy provided by combusting H2. Eventually you'd run out of catalyst (essentially your new fuel source for the vehicle, just one used to create the combustible fuel), and then still have to "fill up the tank", thus making it not a self-sustaining system.

At this point, refillable H2 catridges make pretty good sense comparably, because it is far more efficient (with current technology) to not have a mobile H2 production plant in every vehicle.

 

[Entheojen]

Harvesting 'limitless' hydrogen from self-powered cells - BBC News 20 September 2011

US researchers say they have demonstrated how cells fuelled by bacteria can be "self-powered" and produce a limitless supply of hydrogen.

Until now, they explained, an external source of electricity was required in order to power the process.

However, the team added, the current cost of operating the new technology is too high to be used commercially.

Details of the findings have been published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"There are bacteria that occur naturally in the environment that are able to release electrons outside of the cell, so they can actually produce electricity as they are breaking down organic matter," explained co-author Bruce Logan, from Pennsylvania State University, US.

"We use those microbes, particularly inside something called a microbial fuel cell (MFC), to generate electrical power.

"We can also use them in this device, where they need a little extra power to make hydrogen gas.

"What that means is that they produce this electrical current, which are electrons, they release protons in the water and these combine with electrons."

Prof Logan said that the technology to utilise this process to produce hydrogen was called microbial electrolysis cell (MEC).

"The breakthrough here is that we do not need to use an electrical power source anymore to provide a little energy into the system.


Hydrogen has long been hailed a transport fuel of the future but has yet to fulfil its potential
"All we need to do is add some fresh water and some salt water and some membranes, and the electrical potential that is there can provide that power."

The MECs use something called "reverse electrodialysis" (RED), which refers to the energy gathered from the difference in salinity, or salt content, between saltwater and freshwater.

In their paper, Prof Logan and colleague Younggy Kim explained how an envisioned RED system would use alternating stacks of membranes that harvest this energy; the movement of charged atoms move from the saltwater to freshwater creates a small voltage that can be put to work.

"This is the crucial element of the latest research," Prof Logan told BBC News, explaining the process of their system, known as a microbial reverse-electrodialysis electrolysis cell (MREC).

"If you think about desalinating water, it takes energy. If you have a freshwater and saltwater interface, that can add energy. We realised that just a little bit of that energy could make this process go on its own."

Early days

He said that the technology was still in its infancy, which was one of the reasons why it was not being exploited commercially.

"Right now, it is such a new technology," he explained.

"In a way it is a little like solar power. We know we can convert solar energy into electricity but it has taken many years to lower the cost.

"This is a similar thing: it is a new technology and it could be used, but right now it is probably a little expensive. So the question is, can we bring down the cost?"

The next step, Prof Logan explained, was to develop larger-scale cells: "Then it will easier to evaluate the costs and investment needed to use the technology.

The authors acknowledged that hydrogen had "significant potential as an efficient energy carrier", but it had been dogged with high production costs and environmental concerns, because it is most often produced using fossil fuels.

Prof Logan observed: "We use hydrogen for many, many things. It is used in making [petrol], it is used in foods etc. Whether we use it in transportation... remains to be seen."

But, the authors wrote that their findings offered hope for the future: "This unique type of integrated system has significant potential to treat wastewater and simultaneously produce [hydrogen] gas without any consumption of electrical grid energy."

Prof Logan added that a working example of a microbial fuel cell was currently on display at London's Science Museum, as part of the Water Wars exhibition.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Microbial Fuel Cells... wow. This could be HUGE.

Thanks for posting that!

@ Aetherius

No one is "incapable" of learning. Kind of a seriously judgemental thing to say.

Teachers (and "experts" in general) are often way out of date on their knowledge. They obviously knew enough to pass their doctorate exam way back when... but there is no requirement that they follow the cutting edge. Often they are very resistant to new tech and ideas that run counter to what they were taught... decades ago.

We all told the OP early on that this won't be self-sustaining. His diagram is not a perpetual motion machine.

However, water can always be added, electricity from solar panels, or a wind blown fan... plenty of ways to generate nearly free electricity on a moving vehicle. This new microbe fuel cell idea above could completely revolutionize power as well.

Studying physics or chemistry in your college doesn't mean you are the infallible voice of science. Most of us here have also studied physics and chemistry.

*******

To all who have never seen an electrolysis cell, it is NOT generating hydrogen and storing it. It IS making hydroxy gas on demand. This is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas that is even more combustible than pure hydrogen. The amount created is just about the amount needed for combustion in any given moment, thus there is no build up of combustible gasses, and no need to store anything. It is safer than a gas tank in a crash, as there is very little gas at any point in time, and mostly inert water.

 

[ouro]

Yet again, the the OP has been abandoned to bickering.

OP: I believe its more efficient to use the hydrogen and oxygen in a fuel cell that turns them back into water and generates electricity. This sort of process is usually more efficient than internal combustion engines. Do some research! This kind of information is readily available. If you have trouble understanding any jargon feel free to ask here and someone might be able to help you. There are a few trained scientists/engineers on this board.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

Microbial Fuel Cells... wow. This could be HUGE.

Thanks for posting that!

@ Aetherius

No one is "incapable" of learning. Kind of a seriously judgemental thing to say.

Incapable of learning as a matter of physical limitations, perhaps not. Unwilling to spend time necessary to understand fully yes, and thus incapable of learning due to their decisions, yes. Those are people I refer to.

Teachers (and "experts" in general) are often way out of date on their knowledge. They obviously knew enough to pass their doctorate exam way back when... but there is no requirement that they follow the cutting edge. Often they are very resistant to new tech and ideas that run counter to what they were taught... decades ago.

I conceded to you that point in previous post. I'm well aware of that.

We all told the OP early on that this won't be self-sustaining. His diagram is not a perpetual motion machine.

However, water can always be added, electricity from solar panels, or a wind blown fan... plenty of ways to generate nearly free electricity on a moving vehicle.

Thank you for explaining the purpose. So essentially making a vehicle in such a way that refueling stations are unneeded, not because it's more energy efficient, but so that the only requirement to refuel would be water which is easier to find than a refueling station.

Studying physics or chemistry in your college doesn't mean you are the infallible voice of science. Most of us here have also studied physics and chemistry.

Edit: Appears I insulted you first, and I apologize for it. We shouldn't go down the road of personal insults, and I made no claims at being any sort of expert and explicit said I lack knowledge in this area.

To all who have never seen an electrolysis cell, it is NOT generating hydrogen and storing it. It IS making hydroxy gas on demand. This is a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas that is even more combustible than pure hydrogen. The amount created is just about the amount needed for combustion in any given moment, thus there is no build up of combustible gasses, and no need to store anything. It is safer than a gas tank in a crash, as there is very little gas at any point in time, and mostly inert water.

Thank you for explaining!