Cyb vs. STB and yields vs. potency

[Luz]

I did a Cyb Salt Tek A/B with D Limo pull and FASW and got a yield of 2.7%; the tek mentions 3% as possible.

I did a STB with D Limo and FASW and got a yield of 1.2%, which is good for a STB.

Both on the same batch of Mexican MHRB and same batch of D Limo y Fumaric.

However, when I took the product orally (RIMA = Moclo 150mg for both), it took 260mg of the Salt Tek product to give the same results as 100 mg of the STB so that the yield in terms of potency is basically the same.

Would anyone be able to offer comments, explanation, or suggestions for next time on this?

 

[pete666]

I did a Cyb Salt Tek A/B with D Limo pull and FASW and got a yield of 2.7%; the tek mentions 3% as possible.

I did a STB with D Limo and FASW and got a yield of 1.2%, which is good for a STB.

Both on the same batch of Mexican MHRB and same batch of D Limo y Fumaric.

However, when I took the product orally (RIMA = Moclo 150mg for both), it took 260mg of the Salt Tek product to give the same results as 100 mg of the STB so that the yield in terms of potency is basically the same.

Would anyone be able to offer comments, explanation, or suggestions for next time on this?

Have you tasted the results? Do they taste the same? There can be fumaric acid contamination. Maybe something else, I have tried FASW only once and it was not giving me good results.
I personally prefer STB with HCl titration, then heptane freeze-precip/re-x to freebase and then FASA. Because I know how much freebase is there, I know how much fumaric acid is necessary and if I get expected result with no leftovers, I know where I am

 

[Luz]

Thank you for answering!

I should have added that I washed them with acetone to remove the extra fumaric, which was measured according to expected yield x 2. I did not think to taste them, but there is a noticeable difference in smell in that the STB smells noticebly more strongly of D than the Cyb, but this is to be expected by the potency indications.


" I personally prefer STB with HCl titration, then heptane freeze-precip/re-x to freebase and then FASA." I am not familiar with this HCL titration- is it on Nexus? I will try it. Did not know heptane would freeze precip. Also, I am preparing to use STB with DCM, distill to minimum DCL and evap to FB.

 

[pete666]

You can check it here
It is for mescaline, but works for dmt as well.
If you want to do STB, I would suggest toluene. If you are interested, I might create topic with description, so you can decide whether it is interesting for you.

 

[pete666]

I should have added that I washed them with acetone to remove the extra fumaric, which was measured according to expected yield x 2.

Solubility of fumaric acid in acetone is quite low. Rather use washing dmt fumarate by (the right amount of) water and get rid of what doesn't dissolve

check here

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I am not familiar with this HCL titration- is it on Nexus?

Titration is a basic technique of chemistry. We heartily encourage people to follow up hints such as this of their own accord. :thumb_up:

 

[Loveall]

I suggest to try vaping to test for potency per mg.

Orally there can be more variables (did you purge, what did you eat before, how full was your stomach, last time you took medications, etc).

 

[pete666]

he has got fumarates
if anything, I would (seriously) suggest rectal ROA. Best ROA imho

 

[Luz]

I should have added that I washed them with acetone to remove the extra fumaric, which was measured according to expected yield x 2.

Solubility of fumaric acid in acetone is quite low. Rather use washing dmt fumarate by (the right amount of) water and get rid of what doesn't dissolve

check here

As I understand it, the solubility of fumarate in acetone, in water, and in IPA are all very similiar, between .6 and .7 gr per 100 ml. For 1 gr DMT expected yield, I would use 2x the fumarate to salt which would be .3 x 2 = .6 grams, of which half would go into the DMT and half remaining free, so 50 ml of acetone should wash all of the excess fumarate out, using 75 ml to be sure. Please correct me if I am wrong. However, I do appreciate you mentioning the option of the water wash and i will try it.

 

[Luz]

You can check it here
It is for mescaline, but works for dmt as well.
If you want to do STB, I would suggest toluene. If you are interested, I might create topic with description, so you can decide whether it is interesting for you.

Thank you for your reply. I had 1 year inorganic chem in high school and 1 year organic in college, so I am familiar with tritration. I just did not see how to use it here -- I was thinking of the post NPS pull part of the process - my ignorance now corrected by reading your mescaline extraction. However, I am seeing no reason to use AB extraction of MHRB at all. STB is giving me the same yield in potency and is much faster and easier. Do you find any reason to use AB on MHRB?

 

[Lowtones]

A much less technical reply, and perhaps a stupid question, but just wanted to cover all the bases: How close together did you test the two different products?

 

[Luz]

I tested each of them with 3 days of their creation. The time between creations was about 2 weeks.

 

[Luz]

I suggest to try vaping to test for potency per mg.

Orally there can be more variables (did you purge, what did you eat before, how full was your stomach, last time you took medications, etc).

Thank you for your reply! I use an invariable procedure of total fast for 18 hours before a session to have a totally empty stomach and my last meal (the evening before) is always light. Never eat red meat or junk food or even processed food. Don't drink or smoke or do any drugs except entheogens. I take very little prescrip medications and always the same ones at the same times so would not affect a difference in outcome.

 

[Loveall]

I suggest to try vaping to test for potency per mg.

Orally there can be more variables (did you purge, what did you eat before, how full was your stomach, last time you took medications, etc).

Thank you for your reply! I use an invariable procedure of total fast for 18 hours before a session to have a totally empty stomach and my last meal (the evening before) is always light. Never eat red meat or junk food or even processed food. Don't drink or smoke or do any drugs except entheogens. I take very little prescrip medications and always the same ones at the same times so would not affect a difference in outcome.

Thanks, that is pretty well controlled. So I take it you did not purge?

Another thing to try is to convert your salt to freebase (that alone may give a clue) and vaporize that.

I think it has been well established that the max ion tek does not extract anything new, with the classic solvents at the classic pH. Maybe it is different for limonene, especially if your pH was a little lower. Do you know what your pH was?

In another CYB tek experiment you can split the acid tea into two and set one at pH 12 and another one at pH 9.5 and do limonene pulls for each, you may get a lot of stuff that is not active at the lower pH. If you do, it would be very interesting to use this on mushrooms where there are active zwitterion the pH would matter a lot: limonene could pull this kind of molecule at pH 9-10, but maybe not at pH ~ 12. What pH did you do solvent pulls at? I did an experiment with limonene (per downwardsfromzero's suggestion) and Xylene using mushrooms, and fumarate stuff did precipitate from both if the tea pH was ~ 9.

 

[pete666]

I should have added that I washed them with acetone to remove the extra fumaric, which was measured according to expected yield x 2.

Solubility of fumaric acid in acetone is quite low. Rather use washing dmt fumarate by (the right amount of) water and get rid of what doesn't dissolve

check here

As I understand it, the solubility of fumarate in acetone, in water, and in IPA are all very similiar, between .6 and .7 gr per 100 ml. For 1 gr DMT expected yield, I would use 2x the fumarate to salt which would be .3 x 2 = .6 grams, of which half would go into the DMT and half remaining free, so 50 ml of acetone should wash all of the excess fumarate out, using 75 ml to be sure. Please correct me if I am wrong. However, I do appreciate you mentioning the option of the water wash and i will try it.

I don't remember exact numbers, but this theory seems to be OK.
It is some time I was trying FASW and my brain washed it out
If you are interested, here is some information
Anyway, this is a dead branch for me. FASA is much better approach

 

[pete666]

You can check it here
It is for mescaline, but works for dmt as well.
If you want to do STB, I would suggest toluene. If you are interested, I might create topic with description, so you can decide whether it is interesting for you.

Thank you for your reply. I had 1 year inorganic chem in high school and 1 year organic in college, so I am familiar with tritration. I just did not see how to use it here -- I was thinking of the post NPS pull part of the process - my ignorance now corrected by reading your mescaline extraction. However, I am seeing no reason to use AB extraction of MHRB at all. STB is giving me the same yield in potency and is much faster and easier. Do you find any reason to use AB on MHRB?

In fact no, STB is perfect both for mescaline and dmt too. STB is very easy, clean and straightforward. No boiling, no filtering, no mess. I don't get why more people don't use this. If one owns 50ml glass pipette with rubber bulb, the separation of non-polar is simply a pleasure.
With 15ml of water and 1g of NaOH per 1g of MHRB, I have never experienced any emulsion and believe me, I shake without mercy and without any fear.
The only issue is finding the right vessel (due to chemical compatibility)

Yes, I understand people may be worried by the amount of NaOH, but it is really cheap and can be wasted without any problems.

 

[Luz]

Thank you to everyone for your comments. They have guided me to the conclusion that a 1% or so is the max yield for MHRB and the A/B teks do not improve yield and there is no good reason for using them. Although Cyb's did give an apparent yield of 3%, the other 2% was something else and not psycho active.

What is working for me well --is simple, fast, easy, non-toxic and 1% yield-- is NaOH 12 pH, D Limo, FASW --> Fumarate. (I only do oral.)

 

[cyb]

Although Cyb's did give an apparent yield of 3%, the other 2% was something else and not psycho active.

3% is a theoretical max and is very much dependant on high yield bark and perfect tek execution...2.5s have been reported but Bark is very finicky...Climate/Harvest time/Geography/Root Size would all play a part in yield size.
Extraction is the Easy part :thumb_up:

 

[Luz]

Hi Cyb! Good to hear from you. As I said above, I did your tek and got almost 3% of FASW precipitate, but it only had half the DMT power of an STB precip of 1.2% so the amount of DMT power was the same so that I had to double dose from 100 mg STB to 260 mg of the precip to get the same effect. I was wondering why and what the rest of the precip was. Must have been inactive plant material?

 

[cyb]

I was wondering why and what the rest of the precip was. Must have been inactive plant material?

Not sure...I never perform a FASW.
Endlessness is the expert to talk to in regards to fumerates.