CYP3A4 enzyme Cat's Claw iboga

[RhythmSpring]

Is there any reason why Cat's Claw would interact negatively in the body with Iboga? They both take the CYP3A4 liver enzyme to break down.

Thanks,
RS

 

[downwardsfromzero]

You kind of answered your own question. Each will slow down the metabolism of the other. Therefore lower doses are advisable.

This is known as competitive enzyme inhibition. A certain proportion of the enzyme that metabolises the one compound is 'busy' metabolising the other compound, ergo, the compounds each get metabolised more slowly. This is obviously a reductionist view as it assumes there are no other metabolic effects from either of the compounds. You also have to look at enzyme induction, alternate pathways and the activities of the metabolic products, to mention but a few possibilities. And Cat's Claw and Iboga are in no way single compounds, either!

I suppose it will possibly make any given amount of Iboga go further, which surely must be a good thing as it is an endangered species.

This is off the top of my head and I would in no way advocate combining plants in this manner :!:

 

[RhythmSpring]

You kind of answered your own question. Each will slow down the metabolism of the other. Therefore lower doses are advisable.

This is known as competitive enzyme inhibition. A certain proportion of the enzyme that metabolises the one compound is 'busy' metabolising the other compound, ergo, the compounds each get metabolised more slowly. This is obviously a reductionist view as it assumes there are no other metabolic effects from either of the compounds. You also have to look at enzyme induction, alternate pathways and the activities of the metabolic products, to mention but a few possibilities. And Cat's Claw and Iboga are in no way single compounds, either!

I suppose it will possibly make any given amount of Iboga go further, which surely must be a good thing as it is an endangered species.

This is off the top of my head and I would in no way advocate combining plants in this manner :!:

Thanks for the insight, downwardsfromzero! That was my intuition, that the metabolism or processing of each would be slowed, which would mean increased effects of either or both.

So does that mean the only dangers that could exist with this combination would be akin to the effects of "too much cat's claw" or "too much iboga"? Or is there some other possible danger that I'm not aware of that would make you caution against this combination with a :!: ?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

is there some other possible danger[...]?

Well, there might be or there might not be but I honestly couldn't say. It could be entirely different depending on what you had for lunch or the phase of Jupiter's moons. It's probably at least worth looking for any evidence of pre-existing experiences with this combination. Then use caution plus intuition.


Honestly, I've never tried this myself nor do I know anyone else who has. The reasoning is pretty good, similar to the (contentious) grapefruit plus MDMA trick, plus if I really consider some of the things I've gotten up to over the years I'm hardly in a position to advise! I think I mostly used the ":!: " symbol because I've spent too much time in the company of lawyers... I'm thinking of other, possibly foolhardy, persons unknown who may read a thread such as this. "Too much Iboga" could clearly be fatal. And I'd guess you'd have to make sure your Uncaria tomentosa was the good stuff, too.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Well, to clarify, I am not considering doing a typical iboga flood dose with any cat's claw in my system. I am microdosing iboga on and off (no more than 600mg rootbark in a day).

However, my current sensitivity is so great that I notice the effects of ~50mg iboga rootbark. I recently dosed about 100mg rootbark and spent the entire morning in bed envisioning cleaning out and organizing the contents of my brain as represented by computers, magazines, books, even a honeydew melon represented a ball of emotional clutter I needed to get rid of.

Anyway, I digress. I'd be microdosing.