Dark DMT - the Other Alkaloid

[69ron]

Diethyl ether, DCM, xylene, and chloroform should all extract this so called "Jungle Spice" or "Dark Spice" according to posts I've read from other SWIMs.

Diethyl ether, like DCM and chloroform, will extract a lot of DMT N-Oxide. When impure, it looks like brown goo and will prevent your DMT from crystallizing if there is enough present. When pure it looks like yellow goo. It doesn't crystallize no matter how pure it is. It is active however, but SWIMs tests found it is slightly less potent than DMT and is more gentle, so it's probably not the "Jungle Spice" people are talking about.

Naphtha and heptane cannot extract any N-Oxides. N-Oxides are too polar to be extracted by those solvents. I don't know if xylene can extract N-Oxides or not.

N-Oxides of DMT can be generated in a few minutes in certain cases. For example, heating DMT with a fan blowing over it seems to make DMT N-Oxide rather quickly.

When using a solvent like diethyl ether, you’re going to extract a larger array of alkaloids. For example, if you extracted from Anadenanthera colubrina using naphtha or heptane, only a tiny bit of alkaloids would get extracted. Most would not get extracted. You would extract DMT and 5-MeO-DMT almost exclusively. Alkaloids that would be excluded include DMT N-Oxide, 5-MeO-DMT N-Oxide, bufotenine, bufotenine N-Oxide, serotonin, and a few others. But if you extracted with diethyl ether, nearly all the alkaloids would get extracted.

Diethyl ether, DCM and chloroform are very similar solvents and they usually extract a wider range of alkaloids compared with the more non-polar solvents like naphtha and heptane.

The only solvents that are better are the alcohols usually, but they are water soluble and can’t usually be used in an A/B extraction. However, isopropyl alcohol can be used as a sort of non-polar solvent in an A/B extraction if the water is saturated with salt (sodium chloride). Isopropyl alcohol is insoluble in water saturated with salt and forms a separate layer. This is useful sometimes when you’re trying to extract an alkaloid that is very water soluble and won’t easily get extracted by the true non-polar solvents.

 

[acolon_5]

Diethyl ether, like DCM and chloroform, will extract a lot of DMT N-Oxide. When impure, it looks like brown goo and will prevent your DMT from crystallizing if there is enough present. When pure it looks like yellow goo. It doesn't crystallize no matter how pure it is. It is active however, but SWIMs tests found it is slightly less potent than DMT and is more gentle, so it's probably not the "Jungle Spice" people are talking about.

The effects from DMT N-Oxide sounds suspiciously like the yellow/oily spice that has been reported more "gentle" than clear DMT. If this is the case would the oils from MHRB be bringing over some of the DMT oxide or is the spice oxidizing after extraction?

I personally have noticed that oily yellow spice while being harsher to smoke brings on a more relaxed experience. This is using Naphtha or Bestine only.

 

[modsquad09]

The effects from DMT N-Oxide sounds suspiciously like the yellow/oily spice that has been reported more "gentle" than clear DMT. If this is the case would the oils from MHRB be bringing over some of the DMT oxide or is the spice oxidizing after extraction?

I personally have noticed that oily yellow spice while being harsher to smoke brings on a more relaxed experience. This is using Naphtha or Bestine only.

I always use the yellowy spice, its like a powder form..

Its always been pretty gentle, this new batch looks the same but wasnt harsh at all like the last batch from the same source.(black M)

Still intense and worthy though thats for shure.. i wanna try some clean white spice for shure though.

 

[burnt]

ron 69 agreed that those solvents would extract more DMT oxide then hexane and heptane (which shouldnt extract any hence why they are good for purifying and recrystallizing), however yes again the jungle spice (from mimosa) that SWIM has tried was about double if not more the potency of pure white spice. SWIM thinks something else in the mimosa is altering the effects in this extract but what is a mystery. SWIM thought it might have been an alkaloid but no alkaloids were detected (besides DMT) in GC-MS so another analytical technique may be necessary to figure this out as GC could destroy less stable compounds but then again so would heating in a fire.

 

[meme]

There is something else there, I don't think it is dmt-oxide. Meditiations on this remind meme of 5meodmt, and not bufotenine, perhaps like a 50/50 mix of subjective n,n and 5meo. DMT oxide woould not be MORE active, for sure, so it seems like it might be out.

I'm NOT saying it is 5meo. Some have suggested that it is a cyclenized beta carboline derivitave of DMT.

Does this perhaps explain Jurema's oral use? Maybe one day . . .

Hi everyone! I'm so happy this site is thriving! Congrat to blackclo and all the members who make it happen!

 

[69ron]

It can't be DMT N-Oxide. DMT N-Oxide is slightly weaker than DMT, and the onset is slower and the duration longer than DMT. This is contrary to the effects of "Jungle DMT" which hits you faster, has a shorter duration, and is stronger than DMT.

"Jungle DMT" does sound a heck of a lot like 5-MeO-DMT to me and nothing like bufotenine. Bufotenine is stronger than DMT, as strong as 5-MeO-DMT, but it has a slower onset and longer duration than DMT, and it's more gentle than all of the above but has a rough body load. In all the reports of "Jungle DMT" I've read it sounds very similar to 5-MeO-DMT, but sill different from it.

Chaliponga has some unknown 5-MeO-DMT like compound in it that is sort of salvia like. SWIM doesn't like it at high doses when smoked. In SWIMs experience it is like "Jungle DMT" is described. It’s possible that mimosa and chaliponga have the same unknown compound in them.

SWIM knows DMT and knows 5-MeO-DMT very well and can tell you that the effects of a smoked chaliponga mixed alkaloid extract (made using ether, chloroform, or DCM) is quite different that just a mix of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. The twisting and slipping sensations that are salvia-like are from something else in the plant, not DMT or 5-MeO-DMT. There’s a very alien feeling to the trip when enough is smoked; your visual senses go completely bonkers with pieces of fragmented objects flying around your field of view. It’s really crazy. But small doses are really nice.

 

[polytrip]

Could it be MMT or 5 MeoMMT? Chaliponga is said to contain MMT and 5meoMMT. I also read somewhere that DPT is described as being darker then DMT. Could something like DPT/DET be produced by these plants as well?
Another question wich is very interesting to me is: as long as the dark alkaloïd is not identified, would posession, production and use of it be legal then? I mean, how can an unidentified substance of wich it is not even 100% sure that it is indeed a tryptamine, be illegal?

 

[69ron]

Could it be MMT or 5 MeoMMT? Chaliponga is said to contain MMT and 5meoMMT. I also read somewhere that DPT is described as being darker then DMT. Could something like DPT/DET be produced by these plants as well?

MMT is supposed to be inactive, but maybe it’s active when taken along with DMT or 5-MeO-DMT.

The activity of 5-MeO-MMT is unknown. These could account for the strange affects.

I don’t know about DPT or DET.

Another question wich is very interesting to me is: as long as the dark alkaloïd is not identified, would posession, production and use of it be legal then? I mean, how can an unidentified substance of wich it is not even 100% sure that it is indeed a tryptamine, be illegal?

Very good question. Actually, very few people ever get busted for DMT. The few cases I know of were people who got busted because they bought sodium hydroxide from a soap supply on-line shop and the sellers thought they were using it to make meth and reported them as possible meth manufacturers. When the cops arrived, they found DMT instead of meth and arrested them anyway (because DMT is also illegal in that part of the world).

I think it’s better to be on the safe side and assume it is illegal. If you package it properly, and it doesn’t look suspicious, then you’re probably fine. First off, don’t put it in a jar labeled “Jungle DMT from Mimosa”. Put it in gel capsules and put them in an herb container like “Saint Johns Wort” or something like that. Have the jar sitting next to other jars of capsulated herbs you bought at the grocery store. Even better, seal them with shrink wrap to make them look authentic. No one will think twice about it. Most authorities are only looking for a few of the big drugs like cocaine, meth, LSD, marijuana, etc. DMT and similar drugs are really not on their radar at all. I’m sure you could probably even pass through airport security with a gram of pure DMT and tell them its an ingredient for a new hair conditioner product you’re working on and they’ll probably let you pass right through because it doesn’t look like any of the popular drugs they’re looking for. No one is trained to find DMT in anyplace in the world as far as I know.

You could show DMT to a police officer and they’ll have no idea what it is. Let them smell it, touch it, taste it, and they will still have no idea what it is. Only a very small fraction of people know what it is. Look at all the drug usage charts that list drug popularity and DMT doesn’t show up on any of them.

Case in point: the DEA website in the US has a directory which has a section on “Drugs and Drug Abuse” and DMT isn’t even mentioned by name in that list! It’s instead lumped together with the section “Psilocybin & Psilocyn and other Tryptamines”. Even Khat and LSD both have their own entire page. That shows how unimportant DMT is to the DEA. It has a small paragraph devoted to it and that’s it. Bufotenine doesn’t even have its own paragraph, it has only 2 sentences devoted to it. These are really low on their radar. In their page “Hallucinogens” devoted specifically to hallucinogens, DMT and bufotenine aren't even mentioned once. Only LSD, mushrooms, and MDMA are mentioned there.

Here’s a list of the page count of pages in the US DEA website that mention DMT along with a page count of some other drugs for comparison giving you an idea of just how unpopular DMT actually is:

57 mention DMT
31 mention bufotenine
311 mention LSD
1220 mention methamphetamine
1300 mention marijuana
2360 mention cocaine

 

[benzyme]

yes.

methinks DMT was caught in the net of the controlled substances scheduling act of 1970, as a direct analog of Psilocin/Psilocybin, as was DET. the CIA had interest in psilocybin/psilocin in the early 50's, as an offshoot of the MKUltra project. not surprisingly, they continue their MK projects to this day.

dmt has never been widely abused.

and looking at the scheduling with mescaline, thc, ibogaine, psilocin and dmt at C-I, and Desoxyn, cocaine, Fentanyl, and Sernylan at C-II, you know it has little to do with protecting us from ourselves.

 

[burnt]

"Jungle DMT" does sound a heck of a lot like 5-MeO-DMT to me and nothing like bufotenine. Bufotenine is stronger than DMT, as strong as 5-MeO-DMT, but it has a slower onset and longer duration than DMT, and it's more gentle than all of the above but has a rough body load. In all the reports of "Jungle DMT" I've read it sounds very similar to 5-MeO-DMT, but sill different from it.

agree the potency seems more like the 5-meo-dmt level but the effects don't seem to match up entirely. SWIM smoked jungle spice that definatly contained the spice, which was confirmed by analytical analysis and bioassay the effects for the most part were exactly like white spice except, more potent, onset was a bit delayed, come up was smoother. however no 5-meo-dmt was detected (and the method used should have observed this compound) in SWIMs jungle spice mixture nor were any other alkaloids.

 

[Infundibulum]

SWIM's got plenty salted "jungle spice" and is going to try to see whether its citrate salt is soluble in acetone. According to 69ron, 5meo-dmt citrate is insoluble in acetone.

It also possible that the insolubility of 5meo-dmt citrate is due to the methoxy group, which means that if jungle citrate precipitates in acetone, it has a methoxy group!

If it is a beta carboline (or similar), then its acetate or chloride salt should precipitate in aqueous concentrated brine solution, like harmala alkaloids.

Has anyone else tried these tests? Do they sound reasonable enough for SWIM to give them a try?

 

[69ron]

I am willing to bet it's similar to a beta-carboline and all it does is increase the potency of the DMT and slightly alter its effects.

Note that 5-MeO-DMT citrate doesn't always precipitate out of acetone. Sometimes it looks like its going to and then it re-dissolves in the acetone. SWIM is not sure why this happens. SWIM believes it has to do with water content in the acetone because he wasn’t using dry acetone when that happened. SWIM believes dry acetone is needed or it won't precipitate out. The other thing is SWIM is unsure if it is 5-MeO-DMT N-Oxide citrate or 5-MeO-DMT citrate that precipitates out, or both. When it was tested, the tests used could not distinguish between the two. But activity tests seem to indicate it was 5-MeO-DMT citrate and not 5-MeO-DMT N-Oxide citrate (which is weaker). Could some other SWIMs test this out using dry acetone and wet acetone and check if the compound that precipitates is 5-MeO-DMT N-Oxide citrate or 5-MeO-DMT citrate or both?

One thing is for certain, DMT citrate doesn’t precipitate out of acetone, and bufotenine citrate and bufotenine N-Oxide citrate both do very easily.

 

[meme]

"I am willing to bet it's similar to a beta-carboline and all it does is increase the potency of the DMT and slightly alter its effects."

That is probably the million dollar answer!

I'd guess that it was an impure beta-C with some amount of n,n,-dmt as an 'impurity.' I think that acids (in the presence of DCM) can close DMT into a beta carboline. I remember a post from a few years ago (on drugs forums, I think) about this, and, while the situation here is abit different, it shouws that artifacts of the extraction are something to think about.

 

[burnt]

I'd guess that it was an impure beta-C with some amount of n,n,-dmt as an 'impurity.' I think that acids (in the presence of DCM) can close DMT into a beta carboline. I remember a post from a few years ago (on drugs forums, I think) about this, and, while the situation here is abit different, it shouws that artifacts of the extraction are something to think about.

nn DMT was the major component in the jungle spice mixture SWIMs friend of a friend analyzed by GC-MS, maybe some oxide too can't remember. no oily components were seen but they were probably not volatilized under the analytical conditions used. a beta-carboline should have been detected if it was present under the analytical conditions used. artifcats are always something to consider in these situations. SWIM should get analytical on this stuff again when time permits.

 

[meme]

I'd love to see that report!

Certainly not just the n-oxide, though . . .

The beta-carboline thing is probably falling apart then! Let's get to it! Since the unknown is not formed or extracted using dcm, and burnt has some REAL data suggesting that they were not there, what is it?

What can you remember? Any 5-O or 5-MeO? 6? 7? monomethyl?

burnt, what do you mean by "no oily components were seen"?

 

[burnt]

burnt, what do you mean by "no oily components were seen"?

ah meant tannins and stuff like that. would expect them to be in this mixture. also yes its very likely that a betacarboline like thing may fall apart under the analysis conditions used but then again the conditions were similar to smoking so it may degrade then too.

anyway SWIM just looked at his friend of a friends data again and yea there was nothing in the mixture by GC-MS analysis besides nn-DMT (there wasn't even any oxide, swim may have removed this previously SWIM can't remember much about how SWIM cleaned up this extract). SWIM expects that tannins and oily compounds need to be derivatized before they will be volatile under the analytical conditions being used. as far as other alkaloids SWIM doesn't see any evidence yet for them in this particular jungle spice mixture.

so the conclusion so far. jungle spice extraction with toluene from mimosa analyzed by GC-MS so far only was observed to contain nn-dmt. more work to come when SWIMs friend of a friend has the time.

also check this out:

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/journal_v5_num14/pg6.html

its from DEA website where they analyzed mimosa. there GC-MS results are more or less the same as SWIMs friend of a friend.

 

[69ron]

DMT N-Oxide will be detected as DMT in most types of tests.

Burnt, N-Oxides usually show up as their parent compounds in GC-MS tests because of thermal breakdown. That is one reason why many people don't find N-Oxides in plants that are full of them. There must be N-Oxides present unless you extracted with a solvent that can’t extract N-Oxides. When DMT is exposed to open air, a small amount of DMT N-Oxide always forms after a little while. If you extracted from plant material that is more than a few days old, is must contain N-Oxides.

The normal way to test for an N-Oxide is to extract and test without extracting N-Oxides and then convert the N-Oxides to their parent compound and extract again and test again. This is done because most tests falsely detect N-Oxides as their parent compound.

 

[burnt]

Burnt, N-Oxides usually show up as their parent compounds in GC-MS tests because of thermal breakdown. That is one reason why many people don't find N-Oxides in plants that are full of them. There must be N-Oxides present unless you extracted with a solvent that can’t extract N-Oxides. When DMT is exposed to open air, a small amount of DMT N-Oxide always forms after a little while. If you extracted from plant material that is more than a few days old, is must contain N-Oxides.

werd makes sense why it was not detected then. thought it should have been there.

 

[69ron]

also check this out:

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/journal_v5_num14/pg6.html

its from DEA website where they analyzed mimosa. there GC-MS results are more or less the same as SWIMs friend of a friend.

That’s an interesting DEA report you listed there.

Notice that the DEA reports that the DMT lab was found because they were busted for MDMA, not DMT. Look at this quote from that page;

The basis of this report was the seizure of an unknown plant material (Photo 1) at a clandestine MDMA (Ecstasy) laboratory in rural Pennsylvania.

Look at this quote from that page:

Mimosa hostilis and similar natural plant materials are not formally controlled (by name) in the United States; however, they are controlled (Schedule I) if they are shown to contain DMT or other controlled hallucinogens. Despite their controlled status, a number of DMT-containing natural products, including Mimosa hostilis, are openly marketed on the Internet.

They openly admit that Mimosa hostilis is illegal to sell in the US because it contains DMT, however US law enforcement never busts the US vendors for selling it. If they were really after DMT labs, they’d bust all the vendors. The truth is that law enforcement in the US really doesn’t care at all about DMT and actually the US recently lifted its ban on DMT research in the US allowing it to be used for research once again. It seems like the tides are turning in the US for DMT.

The US also recently allowed an ayahuasca based church to legally use DMT plants in ayahuasca in the US.

I think the primary reason the tides are turning in favor of DMT is the fact that the users of DMT are ordinarily highly intelligent people who are very productive members of society. Case in point: the most common use of DMT is as an admixture in ayahuasca which people use at church in a positive community setting. There is no crime associated with its use. On the contrary, most DMT users are very law abiding people who care about life, their fellow human beings, and many strongly believe in god (or some form of spirituality). There’s also a lack of adverse reactions to ayahuasca when used in a positive church setting.

Most of the media attention based around ayahuasca use is positive. You often see reports of how it healed a person long afflicted with some illness. You also hear about how it opens up people to God, and other such positive stuff. And then there’s the fact that it is used by hundreds of churches, and has been for hundreds of years. It has a long history of widespread usage in South America. It’s difficult to put a bad light on something of that nature. It’s stood the test of time. In Mexico, people see ayahuasca as alternative medicine. They don’t see it as a damaging drug. There are many people in Mexico who administer ayahuasca for all sorts of illnesses. It’s seen as a positive thing. This is creaping into the US. I’ve heard many US broadcast talk shows talking about ayahuasca. All of them have had nothing but good things to say about it.

When the user is an old lady suffering from depression and is cured by a single ayahuasca session, that’s big news. People see that and think, WOW that sounds amazing. They’re not afraid of it. But when people see a crack addict completely addicted to drugs and suffering from it, that’s a whole different thing. That’s a drug addicts drug, not a powder soul healing medicine like ayahuasca is.

The more people learn about ayahuasca, the more people like it in general. Plus, because it’s a tea and NOT a pill or a powder, people are far more likely to see it as an herb and not a harmful drug.

When you see priests giving out ayahuasca tea at church, it’s nearly impossible to think of it in a bad light.

 

[meme]

Damn, so here is what we think we know, I think, correct me if I am wrong.

1. Extractions of LARGE amounts of MHRB produces DMT and, subjective reports indicate a pharmacologically different substance.

2. GC-MS analysis of this fraction, as well as the complete alkaloid spectrum, that is different than DMT, fails to show anything so far.

3. TLC has not been done.

OK, so I think that someone (not meme, as meme is DONE sketching around the law) needs to see if there is more than one substance that seperates out.

However, DMT is very low in potency and a very potent BC might be there is a trace amount, and still be active as a modifier.

TLC should be easy to do . . . *hopeful expectation*