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Defatting step

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omega-scar

omega-scar

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Can somebody take the trouble to provide any links to forum posts or anything else describing the process of defatting ? Thanks.
 
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defatting is using a non-polar solvent (naptha, hexane, heptane, xylene, toluene, DCM, D-limonene) to pull off an acidified solution

ie: Mimosa Hostilis root bark + water + citric acid/vinegar/Muriatic Acid, the first step of any Acid/Base extraction.

Since acid salts of DMT and most other alkaloids are NOT soluble in the solvent you are only pulling the impurities off.

when seperated the acidified solution is kept and the solvent is discarded or (rarely) reused.

Cheers. I know some of the info we take for granted is hard to find.
 
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^

That's it 100%

When you've got a jug of acidic Mimosa juice simply add Naphtha, Xylene, or other solvent, shake for a while, pull off the solvent and discard it, keep the mimosa juice and proceed with extraction as usual.
 
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Thank you very much. People here are really friendly... This shed some light on the mysterious defat process that many people recommended at this point for SWIM. SWIMs only question now is how much solvent should be used. SWIM have about 3600 ml of acidic juice.
 
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omega-scar said:
Thank you very much. People here are really friendly... This shed some light on the mysterious defat process that many people recommended at this point for SWIM. SWIMs only question now is how much solvent should be used. SWIM have about 3600 ml of acidic juice.
Click to expand...

Reducing (boiling down) that acidic solution will make your life a lot easier. Several defats with lesser amounts of solvent would be better than 1 or 2 big ones.
 
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I would say DONT defat, specially if you are doing with mimosa (with some other things it might be necessary, but even so depending on the tek it can be skipped)

Rather recrystalize afterwards instead! Defatting = throwing away a cpl hundred ml of solvent.... Thats your money going away and also nature crying a little bit more :p

With recrystalization, you use a minimal amount of solvent (30ml warm naphta/heptane/hexane per g of impure stuff), and you can reuse this after you put it in the freezer and yield the crystals.. Its much more effective!
 
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SWIM is not extracting from mimosa. He would have loved to have access to MHRB or any posibility to order it , where he lives. That would have increased SWIM's chances to get something out of the extraction. SWIM is doing Phragmites Australis. But the question remains: how much solvent to use ? SWIM needs at least a vague idea... Is 400ml enough for 3600 ml of acidic juice ?
 
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endlessness said:
I would say DONT defat, specially if you are doing with mimosa (with some other things it might be necessary, but even so depending on the tek it can be skipped)
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Gotta say, I don't really get that. Why choose between de-fatting and re-crystallizing? Why not do both? Defatting is the easiest way to rid yourself of (or minimize, anyway) these fats and oils, and it couldn't be any easier to do. Just three 200ml xylene pulls eliminate a coinsiderable amount of gunk, and you lose nothing from the yield. So where's the downside?
 
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The yield may be lost in the separation, even a seperatory funnel isn't 100%, depending on the amount of liquid used could be 99%, smaller portions could be <90%. And for us without seperatory funnels. The workload and loss of yield from eyedropper methods and alike could really add up.

Factor in 3x, also the slight residue left on any container used, you could lose a fair amount in 3 seperations...
 
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Uncle Knucles said:
endlessness said:
I would say DONT defat, specially if you are doing with mimosa (with some other things it might be necessary, but even so depending on the tek it can be skipped)
Click to expand...

Gotta say, I don't really get that. Why choose between de-fatting and re-crystallizing? Why not do both? Defatting is the easiest way to rid yourself of (or minimize, anyway) these fats and oils, and it couldn't be any easier to do. Just three 200ml xylene pulls eliminate a coinsiderable amount of gunk, and you lose nothing from the yield. So where's the downside?
Click to expand...

the downside is you are throwing away 600ml of nasty xylene unecessarily, to get a crystal which will be as clean as if you recrystalize once.. and if you say do both for extra purity, then recrystalize twice and it will be same purity and still no need of using that nasty stuff..

And anyways, xylene is unnecessary, it smells horrible even if you are on the outside on a windy day wearing radioactive protection suit and gas mask.

Also, the extra time/work for this pouring and separating when you can straight get to business..

but thats just personal opinion, of course..


to the OP: Be careful with gramine... are you positive the phragmites you have is free from it? If not, what are you going to do about it?
 
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I am not 100% positive it is without it. But at the same time I am not very sure how bad that is... How much gramine could exist in Phragmites ? And is it that dangerous ? this could become a very serious issue that i should take in consideration if it is harmful.
 
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Xylene stinks to high heavens so avoid it wherever possible. Generally MHRB isn't oily like acacias and doesn't need a defat however if you do choose to proceed do it warm/hot to reduce emulsions. Recrystallization is still your best option for purity and efficiency. Sure it will take longer but letting your freezer do all the work isn't hard and your spice will be perfect.
 
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How much solvent should I use for 3600 ml of acidic liquid ? I understand the defat must be repeated until in comes clear, but what quantity is a good quantity to begin with ?
 
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try 200ml, then...

as for the gramine, I dont know how much there is possibly inside.. I would definitely research more about it, try to find ways of possibly separating gramine (try to find pka and/or xlogp to see if you can separate by different solvents or by differences in pH precipitation).. I did read that gramine will be inactivated/destroyed when smoking, but I have no idea how true this is

be safe!
 
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Omega-scar,

I believe you try to do an "as good as possible" extraction and this is fine. What is not fine is that you try to do that with a material of
a:questionable amount of spice
b:questionable amount of other toxins
c:questionable amounts of lipids of other impurities.

Before taking the plunge to do a "perfect", clean extraction do a crude one to pilot your material. It will save you loads of time and give you experience. So:

Take 500-1000ml of your 3600ml acidic liquid, basify the hell of it with NaOH (high pH may get of some of the toxins if they are present), pull with 100-200ml of naphtha and freeze precipitate or evaporate and bioassay the crude extract.

If the bioassay is positive then you go back and do things right. Otherwise you just spend time and materials blindly.

omega-scar said:
How much solvent should I use for 3600 ml of acidic liquid ? I understand the defat must be repeated until in comes clear, but what quantity is a good quantity to begin with ?
Click to expand...
5-6 times of 200ml will do for defat. May have to do more if after the 6th time the solvent still cokes yellowish.
 
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Well, mix for 5-10 min, let sit and decant the first defat pulls. You may want to mix the last pulls 2-3 pull for longer just to take the most of the fats out, say 1-2 hours.

In any case however, please report back with any results, positive or negative, (hopefully positive!) This information is absolutely invaluable since there are not many promising/detailed results from people extracting from grasses and the vast majority of information that can be found is muddy!
 
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