DMT Addiction, Withdrawal, Depression

[drfaust]

The appeal to the Straussman/Barker authority fallacy has become apparent to me and I am now embarrassed that I thought that someone for a minute knows whats going on....

IDK, I guess this reality can become boring and mundane once the afterglow wears off, no biggie. I am still here to learn something or pass whatever test that life is challenging me to.

All of your points were spot on, and I am very grateful to read and integrate every one of them.

I would not go so far myself as to inhibit my desire for help or assistance in understanding my "mental pain" or "depressive" states. I would rather like to be sensitive to the fact that my "mental pain" may be quite particular to me.

And I'd demand that kind of sensitivity to my particularity from anyone that I seek help from. There are people who indeed "do know what is going on" in that particular sense. I can tell who they are because they are very careful not to assume they know the "cause" of my mental pain before I tell them some very specific aspects of myself and my stories.

Those people will be very careful and they know enough of what is "really going on" to "not know" what my experience is until I can find a way to tell them or until we can begin to investigate those places in my psyche together.

Likewise with boredom or any other common word used to describe "states of the soul". Those "in the know" will have the naivete of a child and they will not assume that what you mean by boredom is what they mean by boredom.

When I turn my investigative powers back to myself and I look at these "states of the soul", I can see a richness to this particular moment and this particular mix of many states that without investigation I might call "baseline". Boredom is a very interesting and very complex and variable state of the soul, for example. It is worthy of investigation as well.

So, simply, from my perspective, the seeking of help or advice is a natural and even a good impulse.
Help is, however, tricky because I risk having "help" be imposed on me from without, from some authority, or from someone who thinks they know in advance some "cure".

Perhaps, what I really need is just a place to think through something, or a person who can empathize and who can think freely and openly with me. I need someone who can "not know" with me long enough for us to make a discovery together.

Does that make sense to you? Because if it does not make sense to you, then it is not a collaboration and it risks being an imposition on you. And what is the good in that?

I wish you well and I have a concern to preserve an agnostic perspective when it comes to your uniqueness. I appreciate the reality of "mental pain" and I am "in the know" enough to stop myself short, to discipline my beliefs enough to very specifically "not know" what is going on for you.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Barker responded,

"I didn’t mention anything about re-uptake and I’m not interested in a debate. We should not presume that we know everything about
how DMT acts or what it effects because we don’t."

I'm going to go ahead and say that this is the response of someone who was talking out of their ass and got called out on it :?:

From your first quote, on the first page, he said: "it promotes the release/uptake etc. of 5-HT and related compounds," so it's...interesting that he's now going back and saying "I didn't mention anything about re-uptake."

I'm sure there are certainly long-term effects caused by chronic, frequent use of DMT (that's true of every single drug, full stop), and who knows, some of them might even be adverse (although I haven't seen much that makes me think that we have any reason to be afraid, so long as we're responsible and educated). I remain unimpressed, however, with Barker, Strassman, and the Cottonwood foundation as a whole.

It may be that they really believe in what they're doing, and I hope, for their sake, that they do, but I'm not buying what they're selling.

Blessings
~ND

 

[Jees]

Barker responded, ...I didn’t mention anything about re-uptake...

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Barker responded,

"I didn’t mention anything about re-uptake and I’m not interested in a debate. We should not presume that we know everything about
how DMT acts or what it effects because we don’t."

I'm going to go ahead and say that this is the response of someone who was talking out of their ass and got called out on it :?:

I gotta second ND on this. I mean, isn't asking questions and engaging in discussion the best way to learn and develop ideas? This seems especially relevant when discussing topics at the edge of human understanding. And, the characterization of asking questions as "debate" turns the engagement from an ostensibly friendly discussion into a hostile standoff, when clearly that wasn't the case, allowing for a framing that allows him to walk away without engaging. All of it seems like a ploy to avoid engagement...playing out along similar lines as Strassman's reply to me.

What does it say that some of the most visible people doing this research appear to cling to/rely on their authoritative positions while spewing their theories, respond to queries dogmatically, and shut down any meaningful discussion that might threaten their stated beliefs?

Color me disappointed.

 

[DisEmboDied]

I'm with you.

 

[tseuq]

What does it say that some of the most visible people doing this research appear to cling to/rely on their authoritative positions while spewing their theories, respond to queries dogmatically, and shut down any meaningful discussion that might threaten their stated beliefs?

Maybe that they are not ready (able) yet to integrate (deal with) new information, as they are trapped in a somehow dogmatically enviornment themself. Some people might be steps ahead, but I can only walk by putting one foot after the other. Might the moves we make be small, but we are moving continuously.

I think people who really have been touched by entheobotanics and do serious research on them, do their best to come up with proper information. This hopeully leads to a change in the way we see and interact with these drugs societally, making them legal for reseasrch as a first step, which allows further workgroups popping up and enhances differiented discussions on them.


tseuq

 

[DisEmboDied]

In Barkers case he is a chemist, not much more than that on the subject.

 

[tregar]

Nathaniel.Dread said:

DMT also acts at pretty much every other 5-HT receptor, and a few receptors that are not serotonergic at all, so this is just a tiny, tiny piece of the puzzle.

except should point out that it is missing agonism at over 80% of brain receptors when smoked, but this is corrected when used orally with either caapi or 5-meo-dmt as snuffs, as these 2 entheogens fill in for the missing dmt receptor sites (which compose over 80% of brain 5-ht) when used together with dmt.

The following below is from the ground-breaking study that was done on human brains & not rat brains for once:

Thomas S. Ray, Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome (2010):

Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome

We currently understand the mental effects of psychedelics to be caused by agonism or partial agonism of 5-HT2A (and possibly 5-HT2C) receptors, and we understand that psychedelic drugs, especially phenylalkylamines, are fairly selective for these two receptors. This manuscript is a reference...

www.plosone.org

hxxp://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009019

Breadth of Receptor Binding, 4.00=max, 0.00=min

LSD: 5ht1a = 3.73, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.88, mescaline = 3.61, 5-meo-DMT: = 4.00 (>80% of brain 5-ht)
LSD: 5ht1b = 4.00, DMT: = 0.00, psilocin = 2.19, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.41
LSD: 5ht1d = 3.70, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 3.40, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.48
LSD: 5ht1e = 2.62, DMT: = 3.28, psilocin = 3.03, mescaline = 3.16, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.72
LSD: 5ht2a = 3.54, DMT: = 2.58, psilocin = 2.14, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.98
LSD: 5ht2b = 3.11, DMT: = 3.91, psilocin = 4.00, mescaline = 3.97, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.69
LSD: 5ht2c = 3.11, DMT: = 3.42, psilocin = 2.52, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.55
LSD: 5ht5a = 3.64, DMT: = 3.16, psilocin = 2.83, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.84
LSD: -5ht6 = 3.75, DMT: = 3.35, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.73
LSD: -5ht7 = 3.77, DMT: = 4.00, psilocin = 2.82, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 3.69
LSD: ---D1 = 2.34, DMT: = 3.51, psilocin = 3.37, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 2.38
LSD: -A-2A = 2.93, DMT: = 2.75, psilocin = 1.36, mescaline = 2.92, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.00
LSD: -A-2B = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.57, mescaline = 0.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 0.86
LSD: -A-2C = 0.00, DMT: = 3.53, psilocin = 1.03, mescaline = 4.00, 5-meo-DMT: = 1.57

DMT: 4.00 5ht7, 3.97 5ht1d, 3.91 5ht2b, 3.53 Alpha2B, 3.53 Alpha2C, 3.51 D1, 3.42 5ht2c, 3.28 5ht1e, 3.25 5ht6, 3.16 5ht5a, 3.13 Imidazoline1, 2.95 Alpha1B, 2.75 Alpha2A, 2.70 Alpha1A, 2.58 5ht2a, 2.37 SERT, 2.23 Sigma1; 0.00: 5ht1a, D4, D5, Beta1, D2, D3, DAT, NET, 5ht1b, Beta2, Sigma2, CB2, KOR, Ca+Channel, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, H2, CB1; ND: H1, DOR, MOR, NMDA

Graham Hancock, "Supernatural", pg 428:

My experience with smoked DMT was qualitatively different from the realms and beings ayahuasca introduced me to. For whereas the ayahuasca worlds seemed rich, luxurious, and abundant in the transformations of organic and supernatural life, smoked DMT brought me to a world--or to some aspect of a world--that appeared from the outset to be highly artificial, constructed, inorganic, and in essence technological.

Graham has a whole chapter of his oral Ayahuasca experiences (caapi + leaf) compared to his smoked dmt experiences, and they are very different, a great read.

5-ht1a receptors make up over 80% of brain receptors according to Dr. Nikols, smoked dmt has no activity at these receptors. Dr. Nikols explains that 5-ht1a agonism is inhibitory and "shuts down serotonin signals", This is a prominent effect of all the natural oral entheogens. When dmt is orally combined with either caapi (contains harmine, thh & harmaline), then the missing 5-ht1a agonism is corrected by very strong 5-ht1a agonist in caapi. 5-meo-dmt is the strongest 5-ht1a agonist known to man, and also fills in for the missing 5-ht1a agonism. When 5-meo-dmt is combined with dmt as used in Shamanic snuffs for thousands of years, the two are helpers to each other, 5-meo-dmt when added to dmt also brings up the 5-ht2a agonism to that of LSD, as 2.5 of dmt + 1.0 of 5-meo-dmt raises to similar 3.5 agonism of LSD.

This inhibition of the brain's 80% of 5-ht receptors in effect "shuts down human serotonin signals", there are some who believe this is what is responsible for entering the spirit world, shutting down the brain's filtering system, so that "Mind at Large" as Aldous Huxley coined can be accessed. LSD, mescaline & shrooms are also very "anti-serotonin", shutting down brain 5-ht signals responsible for filtering. Scientists have been baffled by LSD's strong anti-serotonin capability for decades, but this same effect is repeated over and over in Nature's many entheogens from Caapi to Cactus.

Point is that DMT is "so busy" stimulating the other 20% of brain receptors with such great strength (even greater than LSD) that it uses it's helpers caapi or 5-meo-dmt to fill in for the missing 5-ht1a inhibitory agonism, when combined with caapi or 5-meo-dmt, the whole 100% of brain stimulation is recognized.

Helpers or "combinations of entheogens" is prominent in the Shamanic World, as used traditionally for thousands of years.

Digging deeper, found James Oroc's experiment of combining 5-meo-dmt with DMT accidental great find, as expected, sounds imho very much like a short beautiful transcendental Ayahuasca experience:

As an experiment (and in a foreign land) I smoked the last of the Bufo alvarius venom (the story of whose collection is described within the pages of Tryptamine Palace) with some ‘regular’ DMT (extracted from Jurema Preta.). In the vast majority of my early nigerine (DMT) experiences, I encountered visual fields of ‘dots’ that would come together to form images, much like the pointillism style of painting developed by Georges Seurat or the Australian Aboriginal song-line paintings. With the addition of the 5-MeO-DMT containing toad-venom to the DMT however, the visual characteristic was completely different and totally unique to my experiences so far. On this occasion there was a complete lack of ‘dots’ or ‘points’ of any kind, the fine lines of the constantly changing imagery were like those painted with a single-hair brush on Tibetan thangkas and due to the overwhelming artistry of what I was seeing, I could only think of the vaulted ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in comparison.

Sistene Chapel: This was without a doubt the most ‘visionary’ experience I have ever been fortunate enough to encounter and I lay there with my eyes shut watching the most fantastic parade of the Collective Unconsciousness imaginable, wishing that it would never end, and as I sit here now I can not even describe one tiny corner of it, since every image in the multitude of imagery was in such constant motion that they defied all but a glimpse. And then moments later, like a tent collapsing when its ropes are cut, the vision is gone. Leaving only a struggle of words to explain it, since nothing before or after has come close to this experiences visual majesty.

This experience leads to the interesting question of selectively combining DMT and 5-MeO-DMT for a more visionary and somewhat less overwhelmingly transcendental experience. (Or for the other way around). This combining of the two endogenous entheogens is being tested in changa blends (reportedly at a 90% DMT to 10% 5-MeO-DMT ratio), while many Pharmahuasca urban-shamans are also adding 5-MeO-DMT to their ayahuasca-analogues to transform and deepen that experience. It seems likely to me that the combining of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT in various ratios and manners will only become more popular as the exponentially increasing number of psychonauts search for new psychological terrain to explore.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

EDIT - Removed

Blessings
~ND