• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

DMT HCl

Migrated topic.
O

orangetonic

Rising Star
DMT HCl has made it's way into several inventories lately, and it has brought people to wonder about the best route of ingestion for this wonderful new weapon in my AAR (Arsenal Against Reality). I have found little data about snorting the HCl salt on the net, but apparently some people have had effects from snorting the freebase (albeit with some pain). What I am concerned with is the dose. My intention is to work up little by little, but I like each experience to be "pure" in that it is not clouded by tolerance. Injecting it IV (into lab animals) is possible, the technician performing the experiment is familiar with using a needle. It will not be used first, as the lab animals have no previous experience with DMT at all, and starting off by mainlining pure DHT HCl might be a bit of a jolt. Like sombody brilliant once said, "I am a fool, but I am not a COMPLETE fool..." Anyway my test animals would be grateful for any advice that more experienced hyperspace voyagers might have. They are very familiar with other psychedelics and tryptamines including many high-dose DPT experiences, and they have been reading McKenna and Leary and Turner and Gracie / Zarkov etc for years, so I am not necessarily looking for trip advice as much as information specific to dosing and administering the HCl salt, by either injection or snorting. I will not be using a MAOI to enhance this experience. Again with the "not a complete idiot" quote. Thanks for any advice, and best wishes to all.
 
Well, you mentioned some books you say your people have been reading but you don't mention Rick Strassman's "DMT - The spirit molecule". I would think that book should have a lot of information for you.Like about doses. Strassman's high dose was 0.4mg/kg and that's what I myself would go for. Maybe start with a low dose of 0.05mg/kg on those that have no experience with DMT. I kind of look at this book as a bible for researchers.
 
Actually one of my friends referred to this as "research Strassman-style" but I don't have a copy of his premiere DMT tome. Thanks for the dosing information. I'm 6'4 220 lbs, so that would be about 20mg DMT HCl, if I go on the higher side. Is that I.V. ? I guess I should re-phrase my original post into two questions: Has anybody here ever snorted DMT HCl, and at what dose range did you find it active at? Sorry, sometimes my brain goes around the block before it finally articulates what I am asking, I apologize for that :)
 
[quote:31d891031b="orangetonic"] Thanks for the dosing information. I'm 6'4 220 lbs, so that would be about 20mg DMT HCl, if I go on the higher side. Is that I.V. ? [/quote:31d891031b] I think that's around 40mg but I'm not too familiar with pounds so I'm not sure. And yes thats IV. [quote:31d891031b="orangetonic"] Has anybody here ever snorted DMT HCl, and at what dose range did you find it active at?[/quote:31d891031b] Maybe you should check this out: http://peyote.com/jonstef/dmt.htm#snort But not everyone agrees to this bloke. Some people say you should never snort DMT because it's horrible for your sinuses and you need twice the dose you use smoking. But if you know someone that's going for it then please report here how it went. I too is curious about this.
 
Yeah thanks I read that the other night when I initially started searching for information on insufflated DMT salt. That article is about snorting freebase, which apparently works, but it isn't exactly body-friendly. The base burns in the sinuses, like snorting crack as opposed to cocaine HCl. I will report back what happens. I do fully expect this to become a lot more popular, because the synthetic HCl salt form of DMT has just become fairly easily accessible from overseas. Many larger RC suppliers in EU and North America will probably begin to stock it, and since many people are not inclined to use a needle, insufflation is the next logical route of administration for the salt. 220 lbs is about 100 kilos.
 
Can freebase DMT be converted to HCl salt by adding muriatic (hydrochloric) acid to it? Or can HCl only be converted to freebase?
 
You can change freebase to salts but it's more complicated. I read someting about it once but it was written by some chemist for chemists so I didn't really understand a word :p
 
[quote:9d6bb9b293="DMTripper"]You can change freebase to salts but it's more complicated. I read someting about it once but it was written by some chemist for chemists so I didn't really understand a word :p[/quote:9d6bb9b293] Do you mind posting this tek if you can find it? I have some chemistry knowledge, so I might be able to understand it. If I may compare freebase DMT as a substance with crack... I read crack (which is freebase cocaine) can be converted back to cocain HCl by adding HCl to it and letting the water evaporate off, leaving the drug in it's HCl form. I've never used cocaine, nor I ever will, but I don't see why it shouldn't work for freebase DMT. EDIT: It seems our friend Noman asked the same question once on Lycaeum: http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php/topic,18011.0.html
 
A more chemically minded person than I has speculated that DMT HCl is goo because of forming the salt in an aqueous solution. One of the links in the thread posted by Doerak above has instructions for building an anhydrous HCl gas generator. Someone has all the stuff to do it (needs to do it with some mescaline solution) but is a stoner and hasn't gotten around to it yet. Also, another nobody made up some DMT HCl solution by putting a bit of ultrapure crystal into a little DH2O and adding tiny bits of HCl until the crystal went into solution. This was then added to some saline in a nasal spray bottle. A dose that was calculated to be at least 30mg was then insulfated with no effect whatsoever. He should have felt something - a tiny whiff off a knifeblade is at least discernable.
 
[quote:1ec5e5e244="Noman"]A more chemically minded person than I has speculated that DMT HCl is goo because of forming the salt in an aqueous solution. One of the links in the thread posted by Doerak above has instructions for building an anhydrous HCl gas generator. Someone has all the stuff to do it (needs to do it with some mescaline solution) but is a stoner and hasn't gotten around to it yet. Also, another nobody made up some DMT HCl solution by putting a bit of ultrapure crystal into a little DH2O and adding tiny bits of HCl until the crystal went into solution. This was then added to some saline in a nasal spray bottle. A dose that was calculated to be at least 30mg was then insulfated with no effect whatsoever. He should have felt something - a tiny whiff off a knifeblade is at least discernable.[/quote:1ec5e5e244] This is just speculation, but isn't the following possible: DMT freebase is soluble in non-polar solvents. DMT HCl is soluble in polar solvents. Add ultrapure crystal to (almost) pure alcohol (polar solvent). Add tiny bits of HCl until the DMT falls out. This should happen at exactly pH=7. It's probably impossible to get all the DMT out as crystals so freeze precip the alcohol and see what happens.
 
OK, an update on this discussion. The monkey received some of this the other day. He says the current batch is a pale-yellow color and its a waxy-ish powder. It is undoubtedly a lab synth'd freebase form of DMT. He says the effects are very strange and different than extracted DMT, but then again, the DMT experience is probably the most idiosyncratic experience one could have. Just when you think you know what you're getting into, just when you think you know what to expect from DMT... you have an experience that just blows your mind and has you raving "What the FUCK?!?" again. The onset of this experience was dominated by an ANCIENT theme. When I say ancient I mean, like, pre-historic, reptilian ancient... really fucking strange and slightly creepy, but still very cool. The breakthrough and entity contact with this stuff was one of the strangest the monkey has had so far. He couldn't even begin to describe it. He went into it with somewhat of an expectation of familiarity and then thought, "I didn't expect THIS", it was so alien and foreign, and then the telepathic voice came across from these brilliantly colored, fluid, wax-like, hyper-real, almost stick figure entities... "Nope, but THIS is what you get! Watch!" And they proceeded to do what they do... fuck, it was weird! The monkey has got some serious miles under his belt with this stuff and never had an experience like this one. His opinion of it is still up in the air.
 
thats pretty weird that the experience would be so different than extracted DMT, considering its the same chemical. I wonder if it is actually producing different results or if its more of a psychosomatic thing based on expectations, like how DMT can give you a different trip every time and sometimes a dose that would usually kick your ass does barely anything, and vice versa. what about dosages, time frame and smell/taste of the vapor? same or different?
 
Well, I'm no organic chemist, but I confused as to some of the confusion here and cited on the other forum, so I'm going to have to add my two bits to the various topics in this thread: First of all, there's a very very easy way to tell the difference between freebase DMT and the salt: the melting point. Freebase DMT has a melting point of 49-74°C (depending on the crystal structure), whereas the hydrochloride salt has a m.p. of around 170°C. So just put your sample in a shot glass in a hot water bath (not too hot, since if it is freebase it might literally go up in a puff of smoke (well, vapor)) . If it melts, it's freebase. I'm confused because this is like the whole idea behind the freebase vs. salt issue. The freebase form of a drug will melt and vaporize at a low temperature so can be "smoked" (actually vaporized) easily. This is why people convert cocaine-hcl or cocaine-sulfate into crack, but [i:41d1772df7]everybody[/i:41d1772df7] knows that, right? The salt has a much higher melting point and hence will usually combust before vaporizing, destroying the drug. On the other hand, hcl salts of drugs (including pharamceuticals) are important because they're water soluble (the freebases aren't), so can be injected or insufflated. I'm not a doctor either, but I highly recommend against insufflating or injecting the freebase, and I don't care what that dude at peyote.com says... EDIT: however, see comment on Ott's insufflation of freebase bufotenine three posts down... The next reason why I'm confused is because of the questions regarding converting freebase<->hcl salt. As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the whole [i:41d1772df7]point[/i:41d1772df7] in the A/B extraction teks is to use these conversions to extract the alkaloid. You add acid to convert the freebase in the plant material to the water-soluble salt so it dissolves into your solution. Then you basify to convert back to the water-insoluble freebase (which presumably precipitates out). The freebase is soluble in non-polar solvents, so you mix with a non-polar solvent to pull out the freebase. In mhrb, the DMT already exists as the salt in the bark, which is why Noman can skip the acidification in his wonderful "dmt for the masses" tek. As far as I know (again correct me if I'm wrong or oversimplifying so greatly as to be essentially wrong, especially in light of what Master Chemist Shulgin says. see below.), you can convert any alkaloid to the salt by acidifying with HCL acid and evaporating. You can convert any HCL alkaloid salt to the freebase by adding a strong base and evaporating. This is exactly how they make crack. Read this nice summary from the CIA. The first section is "Production of Cocaine Hydrochloride" and the second is "Production of Cocaine Base (Freebase and Crack Cocaine)": CIA-Contra-Crack Cocaine Controversy also read this Erowid answer on the difference between freebase and salts for drugs in general: Ask Erowid : ID 2348 : What does it mean for a drug to be a "freebase"? How does one make a freebase? On the other hand, the one point that really indicates this is an oversimplification is that Shulgin reports in Tihkal (see reference at the bottom) a rather complicated recipe for producing the HCL salt of DMT and says, "this[...]is the only claim of a valid hydrochloride salt of DMT" and "I have personally had no success [with this recipe] at all", indicating to me that it's not quite as simple as my limited knowledge of chemistry would lead me to believe. The recipe cited by Shulgin uses diethyl ether saturated with anhydrous hydrogen chloride just as Noman mentioned above instead of muriatic acid. [b:41d1772df7]Noman[/b:41d1772df7]: why does one need anhydrous hydrogen chloride instead of muriatic acid? [quote:41d1772df7="Doerak"] This is just speculation, but isn't the following possible: DMT freebase is soluble in non-polar solvents. DMT HCl is soluble in polar solvents. [/quote:41d1772df7] yes, this is the point... [quote:41d1772df7="Doerak"] Add ultrapure crystal to (almost) pure alcohol (polar solvent). Add tiny bits of HCl until the DMT falls out. This should happen at exactly pH=7. It's probably impossible to get all the DMT out as crystals so freeze precip the alcohol and see what happens.[/quote:41d1772df7] again I'm confused. By your very statement, if you add freebase to alcohol it won't be soluble in it. and if you add HCL converting the DMT to a salt, it should become [b:41d1772df7]soluble[/b:41d1772df7] in the alcohol, dissolving into it, and not precipitate!!! Or what exactly do you mean by "fall out"? Regarding IV dosing of DMT-HCL: [quote:41d1772df7="DMTripper"][quote:41d1772df7="orangetonic"] Thanks for the dosing information. I'm 6'4 220 lbs, so that would be about 20mg DMT HCl, if I go on the higher side. Is that I.V. ? [/quote:41d1772df7] I think that's around 40mg but I'm not too familiar with pounds so I'm not sure. And yes thats IV. [/quote:41d1772df7] Strassman reports 0.2mg DMT-HCL per kg bodyweight for threshold psychoactive low dose and used 0.4mg/kg as a high dose. While determining the high dose he administered up to 0.6mg/kg to some experienced users and they found it to be too much. For the 220 lb example above this would mean (2.2 lbs=1kg -> 220 lbs = 100kg, 100kg*0.2mg/kg = 20mg, 100kg*0.4mg/kg = 40mg) 20mg for threshold dose, 40mg for high, and 60mg for a most likely too high dose....hope SWIY has an analytical balance. ;) Doses of DMT for Intramuscular (IM) administration are approximately 1mg/kg. [quote:41d1772df7="orangetonic"]Actually one of my friends referred to this as "research Strassman-style" but I don't have a copy of his premiere DMT tome.[/quote:41d1772df7] Let's keep this quiet, but Strassman's book is available as an online reference for anybody who bothers to have a look around the nexus. Strassman's Text is requisite reading if you ask me. It's in our interest for books like this to be sold and disseminated. Use the electronic version just as a quick reference and buy the book. [quote:41d1772df7="Doerak"][quote:41d1772df7="DMTripper"]You can change freebase to salts but it's more complicated. I read someting about it once but it was written by some chemist for chemists so I didn't really understand a word :p[/quote:41d1772df7] Do you mind posting this tek if you can find it? I have some chemistry knowledge, so I might be able to understand it.[/quote:41d1772df7] Doerak: see Tihkal #6: Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #6 DMT -z
 
[quote:dc720cc0c0="zhah"][b:dc720cc0c0]Noman[/b:dc720cc0c0]: why does one need anhydrous hydrogen chloride instead of muriatic acid?[/quote:dc720cc0c0] My betters tell me that if water is present when the salt is forming, it will forever dry down into oily brown goop unsuitable for snorting. I think we're all barking up the wrong tree with this DMT salt thing. The Antarctican put 200g ultrapure into a small amount of nasal spray solution and added tiny amounts of HCl to that until the DMT dissolved. He then sprayed what must have easily been 25mg into each freshly blown nostril and he felt nothing. He could taste it as it dripped down his throat but he didn't even feel threshold effects. It doesn't burn, BTW.
 
Hey Noman, thanks for your reply. [quote:0cacd2dce0="Noman"][quote:0cacd2dce0="zhah"][b:0cacd2dce0]Noman[/b:0cacd2dce0]: why does one need anhydrous hydrogen chloride instead of muriatic acid?[/quote:0cacd2dce0] My betters tell me that if water is present when the salt is forming, it will forever dry down into oily brown goop unsuitable for snorting. [/quote:0cacd2dce0] this is interesting...did your betters explain why, just for curiosity's sake? Can your betters let me know what's otherwise incorrect in my oversimplification above (again, just for curiosity's sake). [quote:0cacd2dce0="Noman"]I think we're all barking up the wrong tree with this DMT salt thing. The Antarctican put 200g ultrapure into a small amount of nasal spray solution and added tiny amounts of HCl to that until the DMT dissolved. He then sprayed what must have easily been 25mg into each freshly blown nostril and he felt nothing. He could taste it as it dripped down his throat but he didn't even feel threshold effects. It doesn't burn, BTW.[/quote:0cacd2dce0] Well, if rc-vendors are alledging to sell DMT-HCL (swim googled but couldn't find anything...), it would be good to 1) [b:0cacd2dce0]know[/b:0cacd2dce0] whether it [i:0cacd2dce0]is[/i:0cacd2dce0] the salt (i.e. check m.p. as I described above) , and 2) to know what to [i:0cacd2dce0]do[/i:0cacd2dce0] with the salt if that's what you have. This means either insufflating, injecting, mixing with pharmaceutical grade cocoa butter and applying as a suppository, dissolving in water and applying as an enema or nasalspray, swallowing with a maoi, or converting back to the freebase and "smoking" . BTW, as far as I know, it's only the freebase that's supposed to burn when insufflated. I don't even want to know what would happen if you were so stupid as to inject the freebase (well, actually I [i:0cacd2dce0]am[/i:0cacd2dce0] curious to know, but I'd guess it wouldn't be pretty...). Apropo maoi: Noman, if the antartican could taste it going down hir throat, this would indicate to me that it didn't get absorped by the nasal mucosa, but rather swallowed, and we all know dmt is inactive orally. BTW, what do you mean by "nasal spray"? I assume the antartican used saline solution as delivery medium, not some over-the-counter chemical nasal spray with DMT added, right? EDIT: I just read in Ott's [i:0cacd2dce0]Pharmacotheon[/i:0cacd2dce0] that "although DMT-containing plant snuffs are active, intranasal administration of 5-20mg of [b:0cacd2dce0]pure[/b:0cacd2dce0] [boldface mine. does this mean freebase? -z] DMT was inactive" with a ref. to Turner &amp; Merlis 1959. Apropo suppositorial application: as an interesting aside I can highly recommend this very adventuresome article from Ott entitled "Human Intranasal, Sublingual, Intrarectal, Pulmonary and Oral Pharmacology of Bufotenine" in which he used [i:0cacd2dce0]every single one[/i:0cacd2dce0] (edit: ok, he didn't inject it, because it's toxic when you do...), of the above mentioned administration routes to bio-assay bufotenine (5-OH-DMT). He certainly spared himself no effort or discomfort. ;) : Bufo alvarius - Jonathan Ott on Bufotenine peace -z
 
Hmmm, in Ott's article on biassaying bufotenine which I cite above, Ott reports insufflating the freebase of Bufotenine and achieving visionary effects thus, so who knows... anybody here a doctor [i:273041e8d0]and[/i:273041e8d0] chemist and can tell us about the pharmacodynamics of injecting and insufflating freebase forms of drugs vs. doing them same with their water soluble salts? -z
 
Well I'm neather a doctor nor chemist but I've never heard of people snorting crack cocaine. I think it's really weird this guy didn't get any effects with his DMT-HCl nasal spray. He must have mixed it with something other than saline solution. But I'm not specialist on these things. I've only smoked freebase.
 
All of the successful snort reports I've read are from freebase DMT. Yopo snuff is alkaline too. The nasal spray was simply nasal saline. He snorted it and kept it up in his sinus cavity a good ten minutes before the drip started. Not efficient by any means but if the solution was psychoactive, he should have felt [i:f2ce69de65]something[/i:f2ce69de65] from 50mg. He can feel the tryptamine tingle just from inhaling a little wisp of smoke off of a knife blade.
 
[quote:242a4032c0="Noman"]All of the successful snort reports I've read are from freebase DMT. Yopo snuff is alkaline too. The nasal spray was simply nasal saline. He snorted it and kept it up in his sinus cavity a good ten minutes before the drip started. Not efficient by any means but if the solution was psychoactive, he should have felt [i:242a4032c0]something[/i:242a4032c0] from 50mg. He can feel the tryptamine tingle just from inhaling a little wisp of smoke off of a knife blade.[/quote:242a4032c0] Hmmm...well, that sounds pretty inactive to me. I'm sure the [i:242a4032c0]solution[/i:242a4032c0] itself [b:242a4032c0]was[/b:242a4032c0] psychoactive, though, .e.g. if the antartican had injected it, as there's no question as to the activity of intravenously and intramuscularly injected DMT-HCL. This is a question of the administration route, and it seems that intranasal application is a poor route for both the freebase and salt forms of DMT, as it appears both inefficient and uncomfortable. Ever read any of those reports about how S.American Indios (and even more so the western investigators!) get absolutely knocked on their butt when their pal blows about a pound of snuff up their nose with a big blowgun? (I'm exaggerating of course, but you get the idea.) Interestingly, Ott reports in [i:242a4032c0]Pharmacotheon[/i:242a4032c0] that 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenine, and harmine have all been found along with DMT in [i:242a4032c0]yopo[/i:242a4032c0]. [i:242a4032c0]Yopo[/i:242a4032c0], [i:242a4032c0]cohoba[/i:242a4032c0] and [i:242a4032c0]vilca[/i:242a4032c0] snuffs are prepared from seeds of [i:242a4032c0]Anadenanthera pergrina[/i:242a4032c0], [i:242a4032c0]Anadenanthera colubrina[/i:242a4032c0] and other closely related legumes, which contain primarily bufotenine (5-OH-DMT). Ott hypothesizes (supported additionally by his own bioassaying) that bufotenine is the visionary principle of yopo, cohoba and vilca, whereas DMT and 5-MeO-DMT appear to be the visionary principles of [i:242a4032c0]epena[/i:242a4032c0] and the related snuffs of the [i:242a4032c0]Waika[/i:242a4032c0]. Ott's deliberate contrast of the intranasal inactivity of pure DMT with the activity of DMT containing snuffs suggest to me that Ott at least suspects that something other than just DMT is involved here, but I may be interpreting too much into this statement. Anyway, Noman, did you ask your chemistry "betters" why you only get a goo if water is present when forming the hydrochloride salt? -z
 
Back
Top Bottom