I agree with both of you endlessness and bufoman. What I meant about plants is that they are not thinking in the same way we are and they are not self aware in the same way we are. Because yes you both are right that consciousness could be something beyond matter for reasons we covered in reality thread and thus everything could be a manifestation of consciousness. But that is not directly related to the point I am making.
Yes again I agree, although the only thing I am not sure about is a symbiotic relationship through a psychoactive effect, and I will explain why.
There are many explanations why plants make these compounds that are valid and let me just touch upon some of them. Alkaloids and other secondary metabolites are closely connected with the organisms that a plant interacts with. For example symbiotic relationships with bacteria and fungi involve a host of chemical signals. Likewise pathogens elicit a variety of chemical responses by a plant. Also realize that it costs the plant energy to make these compounds so often they are not making them in relatively high levels for no reason. If a plant was just endlessly making some high level of alkaloid that had no activity in its environment and its neighbor didn't make it or need it its neighbor is going to out compete it because its neighbor is going to focus on growing and making seeds (this kind of thing has been shown and proven many times).
But the main issue is the plant doesn't think about any of this. Its all genetically and environmentally controlled. This has been and still is being proven over and over case after case. Even in very specific close relationships in a way its an accident of evolution.
A plant has no way of knowing that any compound it makes will be biologically active against or for something in its environment. It has no way of knowing whether or not the compound it made is working all it knows is its trying to produce seeds without getting killed. Plants evolved to make these compounds first (and still) by random mutations in their genes and metabolic pathways (as well as a few other mechanisms that I won't get into such as gene transfer etc etc). Now plants that just make a bunch of compounds that are useless will not survive because they are wasting their energy on making them. So everytime a plant made a useful compound it survived in its environment and thus it can persist. That is why we have so many plants producing thousands of different chemical compounds all across the world. That is why some plants on totally different sides of the world evolved to make some of the same compounds. It all has to do with biosynthesis and how biosynthetic pathways change and evolve based on the environment and selection pressure being put on the plant.
Let me explain now why the argument that this compound may be involved in some kind of deep relationship with humans is more on the human end and less on the plant end. Its on the human end because it effects us sometimes in a very positive way. Thus we like it. But humans are not exerting strong enough selection pressure on many of these plants to force them to make this compound for us.
Lets make up an imaginary situation to show that it can be dangerous for a plant to make too much of a useful compound. Imagine a group of humans living on an island. On that island is a plant that gets them high but provides no real nutrional benefit. Lets now assume these are dumb humans and did not cultivate the plant. Now lets say the humans have plenty of other food from fruit trees etc. So the human sais I want to get high I'm going to eat this plant. As more humans come into the picture and eat more and more of this plant to have fun and get high less and less of that plant is going to be around. Again we are on an island with a growing human (dumb human) population who is eating more and more of this plant that gets them high. Now the only plant of this species that will survive this human rampage is the plants that make less of the compounds that get the humans high. Humans will then ignore those ones and eat the goods ones.
THIS HAPPENS WITH ALL LIFE ALL THE TIME! That was a crude made up example but you can observe this with insects in the field and many many many other situations.
Sorry for long post but I hope people see the big picture. Its not all about us.
I agree these experiences can make people more friendly towards life. But plants don't care about other life that doesn't benefit them. They only care about making seeds and surviving. Weeds don't care about ripping a garden to shreds with toxic chemicals and killing everything around it. But the main reason I don't really see the evolutionary advantage is that after you eat the plant it has no way of telling its offspring that this works and that they should keep doing it. The only way those traits get passed on is if the plant survives. If we are eating the plants reproductive organs it makes less and less sense.
But yes the plant could have made a compound that in a way makes us like it and breed it and this does make it an evolutionary advantage! And in those kinds of situations your totally right but the point is the plant isn't thinking about it that way. All the plant knows is that its alive and whatever its doing seems to be working.
Yes again I agree, although the only thing I am not sure about is a symbiotic relationship through a psychoactive effect, and I will explain why.
There are many explanations why plants make these compounds that are valid and let me just touch upon some of them. Alkaloids and other secondary metabolites are closely connected with the organisms that a plant interacts with. For example symbiotic relationships with bacteria and fungi involve a host of chemical signals. Likewise pathogens elicit a variety of chemical responses by a plant. Also realize that it costs the plant energy to make these compounds so often they are not making them in relatively high levels for no reason. If a plant was just endlessly making some high level of alkaloid that had no activity in its environment and its neighbor didn't make it or need it its neighbor is going to out compete it because its neighbor is going to focus on growing and making seeds (this kind of thing has been shown and proven many times).
But the main issue is the plant doesn't think about any of this. Its all genetically and environmentally controlled. This has been and still is being proven over and over case after case. Even in very specific close relationships in a way its an accident of evolution.
A plant has no way of knowing that any compound it makes will be biologically active against or for something in its environment. It has no way of knowing whether or not the compound it made is working all it knows is its trying to produce seeds without getting killed. Plants evolved to make these compounds first (and still) by random mutations in their genes and metabolic pathways (as well as a few other mechanisms that I won't get into such as gene transfer etc etc). Now plants that just make a bunch of compounds that are useless will not survive because they are wasting their energy on making them. So everytime a plant made a useful compound it survived in its environment and thus it can persist. That is why we have so many plants producing thousands of different chemical compounds all across the world. That is why some plants on totally different sides of the world evolved to make some of the same compounds. It all has to do with biosynthesis and how biosynthetic pathways change and evolve based on the environment and selection pressure being put on the plant.
Let me explain now why the argument that this compound may be involved in some kind of deep relationship with humans is more on the human end and less on the plant end. Its on the human end because it effects us sometimes in a very positive way. Thus we like it. But humans are not exerting strong enough selection pressure on many of these plants to force them to make this compound for us.
Lets make up an imaginary situation to show that it can be dangerous for a plant to make too much of a useful compound. Imagine a group of humans living on an island. On that island is a plant that gets them high but provides no real nutrional benefit. Lets now assume these are dumb humans and did not cultivate the plant. Now lets say the humans have plenty of other food from fruit trees etc. So the human sais I want to get high I'm going to eat this plant. As more humans come into the picture and eat more and more of this plant to have fun and get high less and less of that plant is going to be around. Again we are on an island with a growing human (dumb human) population who is eating more and more of this plant that gets them high. Now the only plant of this species that will survive this human rampage is the plants that make less of the compounds that get the humans high. Humans will then ignore those ones and eat the goods ones.
THIS HAPPENS WITH ALL LIFE ALL THE TIME! That was a crude made up example but you can observe this with insects in the field and many many many other situations.
Sorry for long post but I hope people see the big picture. Its not all about us.
I agree these experiences can make people more friendly towards life. But plants don't care about other life that doesn't benefit them. They only care about making seeds and surviving. Weeds don't care about ripping a garden to shreds with toxic chemicals and killing everything around it. But the main reason I don't really see the evolutionary advantage is that after you eat the plant it has no way of telling its offspring that this works and that they should keep doing it. The only way those traits get passed on is if the plant survives. If we are eating the plants reproductive organs it makes less and less sense.
But yes the plant could have made a compound that in a way makes us like it and breed it and this does make it an evolutionary advantage! And in those kinds of situations your totally right but the point is the plant isn't thinking about it that way. All the plant knows is that its alive and whatever its doing seems to be working.
