DMT n-oxide and zinc.

[Jees]

So Zn-ing a raw rue tea is a nono.

Goes for mimo too?
This particular batch of mimo yielded consistently, in weight, 50% white fluffers and 50% heavy oil. This oil submitted to 2x Zn-ing turned into nice fluffers with only a very tiny loss in weight which made me suspect it must have been n-oxides mostly.

I know mimo has been reported to have no n-oxides, and previous batches mimo did not do that heavy oil trick as such, and then there is the polymorphism thing, but why did the Zn do it's trick so well? I don't want to deviate to this but was just wondering if the Zn trick could be done on mimo in the wood-in-liquid-acid stage? Or would this be not advised because of same reasons as rue: too many '?' components in that stage that could reduce as well.

If I read Pitubo's adds it would be a nono too.
Yet the difference here with mimo compared to rue is that the mimo gets pulled with a non polar, that stage does not happen with rue.

 

[ijahdan]

I forgot about the quinazolines and their reduction products. Probably a bit risky ingesting them. Ive already got mansked rue harmalas from a previous extraction and will eventually get round to separating harmine/harmaline, ready for an attempt at the harmaline-thh reduction. I just like the idea of quick, crude methods due to time constraints and laziness.

Ive started reading the thh thread started by endlessness but never got to the end. Did anyone come up with a definitive way to remove zinc salts from the final product? Maybe using methanol to dissolve the thh and then evap onto changa? If there was still zinc present, maybe it would not combust at changa smoking temperatures anyway?

Sorry about derailing this thread.

 

[pitubo]

So Zn-ing a raw rue tea is a nono.

Goes for mimo too?

With mimosa it is a bit different. The acid/base extraction procedure ensures that only alkaloids are extracted as the end result. Mimosa contains dmt as the only alkaloid present (perhaps a small trace of nmt) and the reduction procedure will not create new alkaloids.

With rue, the extraction procedure is slightly different and possibly less selective. Rue also contains several different alkaloids apart from harmine and harmaline. This means more unknown circumstances and I'm not sure if this could cause problems. It could also be okay, I just can't say.

In any case there is no big win in adding zinc to the rue tea initially, there are no harmalas stuck in the tea that would be freed up for extraction through reduction. In fact, it might make extracting any formed thh more difficult. With mimosa, the zinc could make reduced n-oxides more available for nonpolar extraction than they would otherwise have been. But even with mimosa, I'd first filter the tea from plant material before adding zinc - if only to avoid wasting zinc powder.

 

[Jees]

Splendid, thank you. I'll give that a try later.
The only difference with the ZN reduction as per wiki here is the volume. In wiki it's like an after-treatment in a very small volume. Curious how it prospers in a bigger volume like one ready to make pulls from.

ijahdan, keep on reading
Harmaline -> THH by a non-chemist of little brain

 

[intosamadhi]

Did anyone come up with a definitive way to remove zinc salts from the final product? Maybe using methanol to dissolve the thh and then evap onto changa? If there was still zinc present, maybe it would not combust at changa smoking temperatures anyway?

Sorry about derailing this thread.

Following endlessness thread, I used acetone to separate zinc carbonate from a thh + harmine mixture, since zinc carbonate is not soluble in acetone. Seemed to work well, got +/- 8g from 10g crude mansked harmala freebase and left a whole heap of zinc carbonate behind in the jar.

 

[Jees]

...Following endlessness thread, I used acetone to separate zinc carbonate from a thh + harmine mixture, since zinc carbonate is not soluble in acetone. Seemed to work well, got +/- 8g from 10g crude mansked harmala freebase and left a whole heap of zinc carbonate behind in the jar.

How much acetone did you use to dissolve 8 gr harmalas please?
Wiki here (due 1 test only) speaks of 4mg/ml, meaning with these numbers you should have needed 2000ml or 2 liter acetone, that seems very much, therefore my question.
Was your acetone dried? Water in acetone could skew results.

Googling, one find different voices about solubility of harmalas in acetone, is not funny.

 

[ijahdan]

So if acetone worked, I suppose methanol would be even better? (assuming zinc carbonate is not very soluble in methanol.)

Also, did anyone prove whether a manske could separate thh (hydrochloride) from zinc or if it would be stay in solution like the quinazolines.

And, I wasnt sure about the formation of zincate salts under high pH conditions. Does that happen or is it still speculation?

I did read all endlessness' thread this time, and the other thh separation thread which uses ammonium chloride, but it seemed like no definite conclusions were reached.

One last thing, Ive noticed zinc supplements being sold in health food shops, so maybe ingesting small amounts of zinc is harmless or even beneficial?

 

[Jees]

Mansking THH is an unclear topic, too bad actually.

The rest of your post makes me Sighh..

 

[ijahdan]

Mansking THH is an unclear topic, too bad actually.

The rest of your post makes me Sighh..

Not sure why you're sighing. I'm probably missing something really obvious. I guess I'm not much of a chemistry wanker!

 

[Intezam]

Mansking THH is an unclear topic, too bad actually.

The rest of your post makes me Sighh..

Not sure why you're sighing. I'm probably missing something really obvious. I guess I'm not much of a chemistry wanker!

Hypothetical:
We was thinking (for harmaline to racemic THH reduction), that for oral ingestion, magnesium ribbon (if handled with care in the absence if direct heat) and with right amount of acidity could be a real alternative to zinc-dust. Why? because the final precipitate would only be adulterated with magnesium-chloride/acetate (a common supplement and harmless/beneficial). So for harmal haoma/pharma there shouldn't be any problem. Now, we don't know what happens with mangesium-cloride if one tries to smoalk/evap it and how it would behave......but perhaps someboday else can answer that???

(No information available)

https://www.neb.com/~/media/Catalog/All-Products/F52A41B41A0B4F849CD665959BF43E1B/MSDS/sdsB9021gh.pdf

The need to clean up the THH/harmine could be skipped

*sorry it's off topic again

 

[Jees]

Food supplements come as dosed, how much you make in the reduction step is a complete unknown factor. Unless you separate it & weight it, but then you've separated it already, no use to mix it again.

So if acetone worked, I suppose methanol would be even better?

methanol 1.5mg/ml < acetone 4 mg/ml for harmalas solubility, RTFWiki :twisted:
Just poking your in-build investigators talent

Never mind I sigh easily when on a wrong leg
(My bad, I thought you were questioning the ZnCarbonate formation singly.)

 

[Intezam]

Food supplements come as dosed, how much you make in the reduction step is a complete unknown factor. Unless you separate it & weight it, but then you've separated it already, no use to mix it again.

Yes, but can't we establish an estimate, by let's say weight the total amount of magnesium prior/and after use? Wouldn't that give us a rough estimate of how much magnesium-chloride has been donated into the final outcome?

 

[Jees]

Yes, but can't we establish an estimate, by let's say weight the total amount of magnesium prior/and after use? Wouldn't that give us a rough estimate of how much magnesium-chloride has been donated to the final outcome?

Maybe, but would you stop the reduction process from going on by taking your amount of food supplement as a measure? For Zn, taking all your Zn out to weight it a few times during the reduction might be cumbersome. Would a ribbon work at all? We know Zn should be very fine powder, why not the magnesium?

 

[ijahdan]

Food supplements come as dosed, how much you make in the reduction step is a complete unknown factor. Unless you separate it & weight it, but then you've separated it already, no use to mix it again.

So if acetone worked, I suppose methanol would be even better?

methanol 1.5mg/ml < acetone 4 mg/ml for harmalas solubility, RTFWiki :twisted:
Just poking your in-build investigators talent

Never mind I sigh easily when on a wrong leg
(My bad, I thought you were questioning the ZnCarbonate formation singly.)

Ok Ive now read the wiki. Cant believe I never read that thread before, where trav demonstrates how much harmala can be dissolved by acetone. Im sure I read elsewhere that methanol was a better solvent, in the order; methanol>ethanol>acetone, but maybe this was referring to soaking caapi leaves, which would contain harmalas in salt form, not freebase.

In any case, as you stated earlier, it would require litres pf acetone to dissolve a few grams of harmalas. Might be better at higher temperatures.

Ill look into zinc supplement overdoses and the vapourisation point of zinc carbonate next.

Just noticed, the wiki gives solubility for ethanol but not methanol, so Ill try dissolving my mixed harmalas (from rue) in methanol and see if I can get some idea. Got slightly dodgy digital scales, so dont know how accurate itll be.

 

[Intezam]

Yes, but can't we establish an estimate, by let's say weight the total amount of magnesium prior/and after use? Wouldn't that give us a rough estimate of how much magnesium-chloride has been donated to the final outcome?

Maybe, but would you stop the reduction process from going on by taking your amount of food supplement as a measure? For Zn, taking all your Zn out to weight it a few times during the reduction might be cumbersome. Would a ribbon work at all? We know Zn should be very fine powder, why not the magnesium?

Perhaps the magnesium powder would react too violently with the acid since it is a very strong reducing agent (hydrogen gas might escape). If, we plan to using ribbon (oxides brushed off/and cut into little strips). And we'd definitely experiment with the first batches until we gained (some amount of) certainty about the total required reducing time, the product, and it's safety for bio-essaying.

When heated, Magnesium Chloride solution thermally
decomposes to form toxic vapors. (i.e. Magnesium oxides and
halogenated compounds).

One reason not to smoalk it...

 

[Jees]

...Im sure I read elsewhere that methanol was a better solvent, in the order; methanol>ethanol>acetone,...

You're right, we certainly have contradicting information here between the wiki info and this thread:

Drinkable grain ethanol (I'm in the states so I use Everclear) works better than ISO or acetone at dissolving harmalas (all three work fine for DMT). 99.9% ISO is my backup whenever I run out of everclear for changa.

Drinking/grain ethanol will work better than acetone and IPA. Maybe vodka would work, dont know if it would leave a taste (for changa or whatever). Ethanol is not the best but quite better than acetone or IPA. The best solvents for harmalas are more toxic, like methanol and DCM. If you use them, make sure its properly dry before using (better let it soak again in some non denatured ethanol and let it air dry again for many hours to help getting rid of traces of those solvents)

DCM and chloroform are the solvents that dissolve harmala freebases well... I know it's frustrating that things like acetone (that dissolves the hell out of fb dmt!) is so crap with harmalas!

The info in the wiki was not obtained by side by side comparison, but gathered from different sources to put numbers on solubility. That could explain something.

And in practical terms of 'good enough':

SWIM has tried all sorts of solvents for freebase harmalas; methanol, ethanol, IPA, acetone, xylene are just not good enough. DCM and chloroform are the only way to go.

There's a funny mixing going on in this thread between reduction of spice oxide --> nndmt and the reduction of harmaline --> THH.

 

[DMTripper]

I just found some very old MHRB in my freezer and it yields very oily stuff.

I was thinking to boil the bark with acetic acid and throw a bit of elemental zinc powder into the aqueous solution and stir that up for a while before converting to freebase and pulling with hexane.

Shouldn't that give me whiter dryer DMT?

So the bottom line is:

This bark I've been using is at least 5 years old.
It used to yield very pure white freebase dmt at first, then it got lost in a freezer for 4-5 years. After that it only yielded yellow oily sticky honey-like goo.

But adding elemental zinc powder to the bark while boiling in vinegar gives me pure white crystals now but reduces yield from maybe 1.5% down to 1.2-1.3%

 

[Jees]

Nice experiment.
Thus you did the reduction before the very first pull was executed?

Is it as active as supposed?

Can you give numbers please: how much wood, how much liquid (+vinegar) to boil in, how much zinc, what base was used, how much pulls with what solvent?
Thank you.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

That's really interesting, for that's about the tek I would have planned to do for extracting my phalaris - to zinc them right at the beginning during the extraction.

 

[soulfood]

Nice!

I've got some old bark that's been waiting so I may try this out