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DMT-n-oxide reduction with the help of electrolysis

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cli_hlt

cli_hlt

Rising Star
I was wondering if nascent hidrogen resulting from the electrolysis of a NaOH solution could reduce DMT-n-oxide to DMT.

To verify this one could do the following experiment:

1. Oxidize a small amount of DMT to DMT-n-oxide with hydrogen peroxyde.
2. Dissolve some NaOH in distilled water
3. Add DMT-n-oxide to the solution
4. Put two graphite electrodes into the solution and apply current.

DMT should turn the solution clowdy, becouse unlike the n-oxide it is insoluble in high pH water.

I am conducting the experiment right now, wish good luck. :)

If anyone could repeat this, it would be great.

If this would work, it might be possible to create a decent DMT-n-oxide reducing tek.
 
Ok, I made two mistakes:

I did not use distilled water, only tap water, so a lot of xOH precipitated out (not a problem, but takes time to settle).

I used too much H2O2, there are still bubbles floating upwards.
 
If I have DMT n-oxide I just smoke that. I've had some of my best trips with n-oxide so I don't see a reason to convert it.

But good luck with your experiment. Definitely someone who appreciates it more than me :p hehe
 
I don't mind smoking n-oxide. I've taken it in the form of orange old spice, and it is just as nice for me as pure, fresh DMT.

What I trying to do is a method to improve extraction with readily available solvents (naphta), and without things like zinc or aluminium powder.

To create nascent hydrogen you just need some electricity and wires (and well, a salt bridge, but it is as simple as a wet tissue :) ). Ok, I know that one has to control the current, pay attention not to shock oneself and so on, but these are different issues than that of acquiring and using other reducing agents, and might be easier for some weird folks like me. :)

Anyway, knowing +1 method to do something is always good. :p
 
I'm also very curious of the result. I love that kind of weird experimentations, mainly done for fun and to learn something. :)

But I don't see how to dissolve the N-oxyde in salted water ?!
 
n-oxide is soluble in water, even at high pH. This part of the experiment went well. :)
 
n-oxide is soluble in water, even at high pH.
Click to expand...

Oh !:shock: Interresting but quite mysterious to me. I thought that when freebasing, the dmt was *precipitating*, meaning that it is no more soluble in the liquid. Therefore existing as micro particles that can be gathered by naphta.
 
That is right.

But DMT-n-oxide is a different molecule and is significantly more polar than DMT freebase. That is why it is soluble in water.

But when you reduce it for example with nascent hydrogen, it precipitates. This is how the electrolysis stuff should work. :)
 
Hey, Its now 7th of October; What were your results?
Can DMT N-Oxide be converted to DMT with electrolysis?

Im assuming not, because it'd be a fairly healthy discovery if it could be!
 
cli_hlt said:
I don't mind smoking n-oxide. I've taken it in the form of orange old spice, and it is just as nice for me as pure, fresh DMT.

What I trying to do is a method to improve extraction with readily available solvents (naphta), and without things like zinc or aluminium powder.

To create nascent hydrogen you just need some electricity and wires (and well, a salt bridge, but it is as simple as a wet tissue :) ). Ok, I know that one has to control the current, pay attention not to shock oneself and so on, but these are different issues than that of acquiring and using other reducing agents, and might be easier for some weird folks like me. :)

Anyway, knowing +1 method to do something is always good. :p
Click to expand...

You could use a 12volt DC source and a variable resistor to control current flow. You would need to know the approx resistance or the salt solution in order to calculate the value needed for the variable resistor.

This is not a dangerous setup and you would have to try real hard to get shocked and even if you did it would not be life threatening. I once took a good hit from a electron beam power supply used in thin film deposition. It hit me with 12kilo volts and knocked me in to the wall so hard you could see the imprint of my body in the broken drywall. I was fine a hour later except for a nice big burn on my arm and a bad head ache. It was the last time I asked someone else if the power was off! I make sure power is off myself and do not trust others to check for me anymore.

This is the same principle as the old experiment were one puts 2 electrodes in a salt water solution and apply a DC voltage. The salt water will begin to release small amounts of gas at each electrode.

One electrode will produce oxygen the other will produce hydrogen this is a basic electrolysis setup. What will happen to DMT oxide dont know never done the experiment.

PEACE
MV
 
@shoe:

There were no results, everything went wrong.

First of all, I added too much H2O2 to the DMT. The solution bubbled for days (!!!). Than I added KMnO4, to catalyse the H2O2 decomosition. After few hours, there were no bubbles.

Than I started the electrolysis, and the anode fell apart.

The good part:

I tried to electrolyse H2O2 - NaOH solution, and there were heavy bubbling at the anode (oxigen was forming), but there were almost no bubbles at the cathode, so something ate the hydrogen => hydrogen reduced something (H2O2).

So at least it turned out that it is possible indeed to reduce _something_ with electrolytically produced hydrogen.

I will start another experiment soon, with cleaned water, clean DMT-n-oxide, and a proper salt bridge.

@MagikVenom:

I used a 12V power supply, and the resistance of the solution was so big, that I did not need a resistor (the electrodes were small graphite rods from a pencil)
 
I might try this procedure some time in the near future. I have some chaliponga (sans the plant material and fats) in a base solution (NaOH), but it seems that all the alkaloids are in the n-oxide form and I don't have a proper solvent to extract them.

So I was thinking about trying this electrolysis to reduce the oxides and then just extract with naphta. So I'll set up one jar with water, one jar with the alkaline liquid, and a wet tissue as a conductor between them. Put the cathode in the alkaline jar and the anode to the water jar, then apply current. Right?

ps. doesn't matter if this doesn't work, I just want to try something easier before I start searching for solvents & equipment to pull oxides & zinc to reduce them.

pps. I was thinking about another reduction method. Someone said n-oxide converts to the amine when vaporized, so what if you put the n-oxide in a jar, close the jar, then heat it until the oxide vaporizes inside the jar, then let it cool and crystallize on the sides of the jar? This should be a neat experiment to try. If only I had the means to extract that oxide I would try it myself...
 
dread said:
I might try this procedure some time in the near future. I have some chaliponga (sans the plant material and fats) in a base solution (NaOH), but it seems that all the alkaloids are in the n-oxide form and I don't have a proper solvent to extract them.

So I was thinking about trying this electrolysis to reduce the oxides and then just extract with naphta. So I'll set up one jar with water, one jar with the alkaline liquid, and a wet tissue as a conductor between them. Put the cathode in the alkaline jar and the anode to the water jar, then apply current. Right?

ps. doesn't matter if this doesn't work, I just want to try something easier before I start searching for solvents & equipment to pull oxides & zinc to reduce them.

pps. I was thinking about another reduction method. Someone said n-oxide converts to the amine when vaporized, so what if you put the n-oxide in a jar, close the jar, then heat it until the oxide vaporizes inside the jar, then let it cool and crystallize on the sides of the jar? This should be a neat experiment to try. If only I had the means to extract that oxide I would try it myself...
Click to expand...


Not sure if it would work with a base solution. A acid salt solution is the norm. But you said you did not care if it works remember there is no such thing as a failed experiment. There are just experiments some have different results thats all so try it and let us know. I suspect .......never mind let us know. Maybe a real chemistry person could comment on this.
 
That's a nice idea here!

SWIM doubts whether electrolysis will work, but the process does hold some promise. Nascent hydrogen just by itself is not a strong reducing agent. (at least not as strong as elemental zinc and elemental magnesium). Which means that if it can knock oxygens off teh dmt n oxide, it will do much less vigorously.

SWIM has some issues with the setup. dmt -n-oxide is slightly soluble in water just as dmt itself is slightly soluble in water (and basic solutions. But in practise a basic solution is not really necessary. Just dissilve te n-oxide in some water (even add some acid) and some electrolyte and electrolyse.

DMT-n-oxide gives yellow aqueous solution whereas the pure dmt ones are colourless. If the conversion works after running the apparatus few days the solution should become close to colourless from yellowish.
 
Infundibulum: You are right with the acidic pH. Besides what you mentioned it is possible that freebase DMT would be deposited on the electrode lowering the conductivity significantly. So doing the electrolytic reduction in basic pH was a bad idea.
 
Garulfo said:
n-oxide is soluble in water, even at high pH.
Click to expand...

Oh !:shock: Interresting but quite mysterious to me. I thought that when freebasing, the dmt was *precipitating*, meaning that it is no more soluble in the liquid. Therefore existing as micro particles that can be gathered by naphta.
Click to expand...

I think that preciptiation can be thought of more as a continual process, with DMT ions picking up an -OH and then, finding themselves drawn by the mysterious laws of equilibrium, to end up in the naptha. magical. :D

and P.S ... Sorry! I just took a dislike to your use of the term 'micro particles.' which suggests to me, pollen grains, or dust, or honey nut clusters. or something like that.
 
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