DMT & RIMA ratios

[Grizzly Adams]

I am not understanding the need to maintain a ratio percentage for DMT and RIMA.

The amount of RIMA or MAOI that is needed is determine by the amount of monoamine oxidase in the gut, not how much DMT is consumed.

Once one 'inhibits' the monoamine oxidase in the gut, one can take as little or as much DMT as desired, within the recommended limits.

One should not have to take a strong dose of RIMA/MAOI for a strong dose of DMT if a light dose of RIMA/MAOI is adequate for a light dose of DMT.

Whatever ones effective dose of RIMA/MAOI is, that should work for whatever dose of DMT is taken.

If I am wrong with my reasoning, please educate me. Is there something that I am not understanding?

 

[cubeananda]

My suggestion is to experiment.

Would you mind quoting where you got this ratio idea? Afaik I've only ever seen a ratio in regards to making changa and that ratio makes sense because the smoking dose for both is quite similar. I.e. 1:1 is simple and works well so why complicate things?


But it sounds like you're talking about pharma/oral ROA in which case there isn't a scalable ratio...
It is as you describe somewhat but im not really sure where your OP is coming from so this is just my 2 cents.


If you were planning to microdose DMT and harmalas I think a 1:1 ratio makes sense... For instance 15 mg of harmalas and DMT

If you were just going to do a low dose of DMT IME 200mg of harmalas at least is recommended.

I say experiment ! :thumb_up:

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I apologize for not being clear. I assumed that if monoamine oxidase is relevent, then the ROA is oral. Ayahuasa (or an analog).

I have no intention to smoke DMT. Not alteast until I am well expereinced with Ayahuasca journey, then I might try it.

I cannot quote the source, but I will explain where I get my understanding from.

The Essential DMT Guide - DMT Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

2. Oral

2.1 Traditional Ayahuasca brew



Dosage

Caapi: light 50g, moderate 100g, strong 150g

Syrian Rue: light 2g, moderate 3g, strong 4g

Psychotria: light 25g, moderate 50g, strong 75-100g

Mimosa: light 3-5g, moderate 5-7g, strong 7-10g

Mimosa without RIMA (needs to be in cold water non-acidified infusion): 25-50g

Chaliponga: light 7g, moderate 10g, strong 15g (some people say they need +20g, might depend on plant potency)

Banisteriopsis Muricata: light 15g, moderate 30g, strong 45g

The Rue or Caapi is the Reverseable Inhibitor of Monoamine Oxidase. Why would there be a light, medium or strong dose for these. All that is needed it enough to neutralize the monoamine oxidase so that is does not metabolize the dimethyltryptamine. The RIMA relates to the monoamine oxidase, and the dimethyltryptamine relates to the serotonin receptors.

One is needed so that the other can do its job, but they do not interact with each other.

When smoking, no RIMA is needed as there is no monoamine oxidase in the lungs.

With Ayahuasa, or an analog, if a light dose of caapi or rue works for a light dose of psychotria viridis or mimosa hostilis, the a light dose of caapi or rue would also work for a strong dose of psychotria viridis or mimosa hostilis.

I want to digress as I may have read way to much into it. My mind perceived or assumed that the does for the RIMA(brew) had to correspond to or match the dose of DMT(brew) as in light/light, medium/medium or strong/strong.

I think what I should do is start with an extra light dose of RIMA(brew) and a light dose of DMT(brew) and increase the RIMA(brew) until I get the most out of a light dose of DMT(brew). Then I will know how much RIMA(brew) is effective and then can increase the DMT(brew).

If I had full member posting privilege I would have asked in the forementioned thread.

 

[Global]

The Rue or Caapi is the Reverseable Inhibitor of Monoamine Oxidase. Why would there be a light, medium or strong dose for these. All that is needed it enough to neutralize the monoamine oxidase so that is does not metabolize the dimethyltryptamine. The RIMA relates to the monoamine oxidase, and the dimethyltryptamine relates to the serotonin receptors.

One is needed so that the other can do its job, but they do not interact with each other.

When smoking, no RIMA is needed as there is no monoamine oxidase in the lungs.

It's not exactly like an on/off switch when it comes to the MAO. You can take enough to neutralize enough MAO so that the DMT may act moderately, but the higher your RIMA dosage, the less MAO will be involved and therefore less DMT will be broken down, so it translates to a fuller experience.

Also, even though there may be no monoamine oxidase in the lungs, the body still breaks it down incredibly fast anyway, and for this reason, using a RIMA will elongate the experience as the inhaled DMT won't be broken down so quickly. I believe the liver which has MAO may have something to do with this, but I'm not certain.

Additionally the harmalas can become psychedelic in their own right at higher doses without the DMT. The two have incredible synergy, and it's not simply like "turning off" the MAO so the DMT can act. The harmalas lend their own color to the experience. It's not just simply like a long smoked DMT experience. At the end of the day, you can try to reason through the biomechanics as much as you like, but experience suggests that increasing the RIMA dosage (within reason for safety) will lead to an overall more intense experience.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

The Rue or Caapi is the Reverseable Inhibitor of Monoamine Oxidase. Why would there be a light, medium or strong dose for these. All that is needed it enough to neutralize the monoamine oxidase so that is does not metabolize the dimethyltryptamine. The RIMA relates to the monoamine oxidase, and the dimethyltryptamine relates to the serotonin receptors.

One is needed so that the other can do its job, but they do not interact with each other.

When smoking, no RIMA is needed as there is no monoamine oxidase in the lungs.

It's not exactly like an on/off switch when it comes to the MAO. You can take enough to neutralize enough MAO so that the DMT may act moderately, but the higher your RIMA dosage, the less MAO will be involved and therefore less DMT will be broken down, so it translates to a fuller experience.

Also, even though there may be no monoamine oxidase in the lungs, the body still breaks it down incredibly fast anyway, and for this reason, using a RIMA will elongate the experience as the inhaled DMT won't be broken down so quickly. I believe the liver which has MAO may have something to do with this, but I'm not certain.

Additionally the harmalas can become psychedelic in their own right at higher doses without the DMT. The two have incredible synergy, and it's not simply like "turning off" the MAO so the DMT can act. The harmalas lend their own color to the experience. It's not just simply like a long smoked DMT experience. At the end of the day, you can try to reason through the biomechanics as much as you like, but experience suggests that increasing the RIMA dosage (within reason for safety) will lead to an overall more intense experience.

Thank you. You helped me understand this better. So, it's not like the RIMA needs to completely shutdown the MAO's, but take out enough so that some, to most, of the DMT can get through. I got the battle analogy going on in my head right now. The more the RIMA's can take out the MAO's, the the less causalities the DMT experiences.

I didn't know that Syrian Rue or Caapi could be psychedelic by themselves. That would explain the teaching of the traditional Shaman's.

I, being a former devote Christian, now tend look at all teaching and doctrines from all religions and cultures that were formed when we were more primitive and could not fully understand and communicate the reality, are inaccurate. They did the best they could using stories and language the people could understand, but with the advancement of knowledge and science, most are inadequate at this time in our history.

 

[DreaMTripper]

Thats a huge generalisation to make and it was straight after you said this!

I didn't know that Syrian Rue or Caapi could be psychedelic by themselves. That would explain the teaching of the traditional Shaman's.

We still cant fully understand and communicate the 'reality'! Far from it.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Thats a huge generalisation to make and it was straight after you said this!

I didn't know that Syrian Rue or Caapi could be psychedelic by themselves. That would explain the teaching of the traditional Shaman's.

We still cant fully understand and communicate the 'reality'! Far from it.

We are still alot closer than we were thousands of years ago. Today, we would recognize an alien species from another solar system as just that, not GODS.

 

[Infectedstyle]

We are still alot closer than we were thousands of years ago. Today, we would recognize an alien species from another solar system as just that, not GODS.

^You make a good point.

 

[universecannon]

What Global said

Just experiment and figure out what works for you

And that 'light' dosage of mimosa, at 3-5g could easily be more like a high dose if you take enough caapi or rue or harmalas with it. It's a shame many just look at them as activators of DMT when they have profound effects on their own that synergize with it very nicely.

Good luck!

 

[Jees]

When you take rima, the first amount X will lower the mao activity mostly.
But if you took 2 times amount X, it would not double the maoi, it would be less.
So the curve flattens somewhat, making it more difficult to inhibit mao the further you go.
Page 4, fig 3(A)
Forget switching it off as said in previous posts, live/balance on a curve.

The thing is, more rima will deepens the experience, as said also, but not because of the exuberant deeper falling maoi (remember the curve flattens out a bit), but because of the co-working between harmalas and tryptamines. The mentioned synergy.

 

[Ryusaki]

The synergy goes both ways.
I once took a low dose of shrooms (1gr lemon tek) with a high dose of Rue tea (6+gr), and what happened after the shroom experience was exhausted (3hours), the psychedelic effect of the Rue was still running strong, reinforced by the psilocybin. I had distinct trance like floaty OBE's unlike a shroomtrip and unlike Rue alone.

A classy magic carpet ride.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

The synergy goes both ways.
I once took a low dose of shrooms (1gr lemon tek) with a high dose of Rue tea (6+gr), and what happened after the shroom experience was exhausted (3hours), the psychedelic effect of the Rue was still running strong, reinforced by the psilocybin. I had distinct trance like floaty OBE's unlike a shroomtrip and unlike Rue alone.

A classy magic carpet ride.

I don't know guys. I just cannot wrap my head around harmine being a psychoactive or psychedelic by itself.

Monoamine odixdase breaks down dymethyltrypamine, psilocybin and mescaline. So consuming harmine will allow those substance to be absorbed into the bloodstream. I don't believe there is any synergy beyond that.

The more harmine consumed the more DMT, psilocybin or mescaline gets into the bloodstream.

But like Jees pointed out, MO cannot be elimanted and the law of diminishing returns kicks in more the more harmine one consumes.

 

[pitubo]

Monoamine odixdase breaks down dymethyltrypamine, psilocybin and mescaline. So consuming harmine will allow those substance to be absorbed into the bloodstream. I don't believe there is any synergy beyond that.

The MAO enzymes primarily act on various endogenous neurotransmitters like serotonin. When you ingest a RIMA, you also influence the body's own neurochemical equilibria, not just the metabolism of exogenous psychotropic molecules.

 

[inextweekelorp]

I don't know guys. I just cannot wrap my head around harmine being a psychoactive or psychedelic by itself.

Then you might want to start trying really hard to because harmine and harmaline are both incredibly psychoactive. Here's a great report from Erowid where the writer explains the effects of high doses of Rue by itself.

Syrian Rue - Erowid Exp - 'Excerpts and Comments'

An Experience with Syrian Rue. 'Excerpts and Comments' by jim

www.erowid.org

He says that in his experience harmalas spread you out over time while other psychedelics spread you out over space. I don't know if I necessarily agree with the part about other psychs stretching you out over space but I certainly agree with the first part. On high doses of harmalas things speed up and you go into a type of auto-pilot mode where you have less free will than you normally would, which makes sense. Think about it, Mono Amine Oxidase doesn't just break down DMT it also breaks down most of your endogenous neurotransmitters. The elevated levels of Serotonin in your Raphe Nuclei increases the "filtering" of sensation that is kind of anti-psychedelic when Serotonin is at it's normal operating levels. At higher levels though you're ego can't really get a word in because you're just being dragged through time and as your brain fires off filtered descriptions of what you're experiencing to you. Light and sound become incredibly light and loud respectively and you sort of retreat into your internal descriptive mechanisms. Very much like dreaming. Note that melatonin breaks down into harmala like compounds such as Pinoline in your brain.

This is critical to understand because, like I said, while you can't call a high dose of harmalas "anti-psychedelic" this filtering effect of elevated serotonin allows you to remain sort of detached from the overbearing effect of a high dose of DMT. There's a reason everyone here is advising a higher dose of harmalas with higher doses of the light-because the light is insanely bright and you need to have that filtering effect of your endogenous neurochemistry to anchor you somewhat to reality because you're ingesting the most powerful psychedelic jet-fuel there is. The sensations will be so overbearing that you'll be unable extract any meaning from the experience. I've noticed that when I've taken large doses of DMT with the bare minimum of harmalas there isn't the same variation of imagery, rather at some points it looks like I'm seeing the same basic pattern repeated over and over again. Also the shapes in the visions are hard and edgy instead of flowy and lens-like. Things are also way more emotionally unsettling. Keep in mind that while the following isn't known for certain it is worth stating that when the human brain does make DMT it is probably secreted alongside these endogenous harmala-like compounds that your brain makes. They were literally made for each other.

Also as a side note you're wrong about mescaline being metabolized by MAO. The reason MAOIs synergize with mescaline is that mescaline elevates the levels of certain neurotransmitters that MAO breaks down (like Serotonin).

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I don't know guys. I just cannot wrap my head around harmine being a psychoactive or psychedelic by itself.

Then you might want to start trying really hard to because harmine and harmaline are both incredibly psychoactive. Here's a great report from Erowid where the writer explains the effects of high doses of Rue by itself.

Syrian Rue - Erowid Exp - 'Excerpts and Comments'

An Experience with Syrian Rue. 'Excerpts and Comments' by jim

www.erowid.org

He says that in his experience harmalas spread you out over time while other psychedelics spread you out over space. I don't know if I necessarily agree with the part about other psychs stretching you out over space but I certainly agree with the first part. On high doses of harmalas things speed up and you go into a type of auto-pilot mode where you have less free will than you normally would, which makes sense. Think about it, Mono Amine Oxidase doesn't just break down DMT it also breaks down most of your endogenous neurotransmitters. The elevated levels of Serotonin in your Raphe Nuclei increases the "filtering" of sensation that is kind of anti-psychedelic when Serotonin is at it's normal operating levels. At higher levels though you're ego can't really get a word in because you're just being dragged through time and as your brain fires off filtered descriptions of what you're experiencing to you. Light and sound become incredibly light and loud respectively and you sort of retreat into your internal descriptive mechanisms. Very much like dreaming. Note that melatonin breaks down into harmala like compounds such as Pinoline in your brain.

This is critical to understand because, like I said, while you can't call a high dose of harmalas "anti-psychedelic" this filtering effect of elevated serotonin allows you to remain sort of detached from the overbearing effect of a high dose of DMT. There's a reason everyone here is advising a higher dose of harmalas with higher doses of the light-because the light is insanely bright and you need to have that filtering effect of your endogenous neurochemistry to anchor you somewhat to reality because you're ingesting the most powerful psychedelic jet-fuel there is. The sensations will be so overbearing that you'll be unable extract any meaning from the experience. I've noticed that when I've taken large doses of DMT with the bare minimum of harmalas there isn't the same variation of imagery, rather at some points it looks like I'm seeing the same basic pattern repeated over and over again. Also the shapes in the visions are hard and edgy instead of flowy and lens-like. Things are also way more emotionally unsettling. Keep in mind that while the following isn't known for certain it is worth stating that when the human brain does make DMT it is probably secreted alongside these endogenous harmala-like compounds that your brain makes. They were literally made for each other.

Also as a side note you're wrong about mescaline being metabolized by MAO. The reason MAOIs synergize with mescaline is that mescaline elevates the levels of certain neurotransmitters that MAO breaks down (like Serotonin).

I don't need to try really hard when I have good information. Thank you.

I am not wrong, Wikipedia is. Harmine - Wikipedia

Monoamines include neurotransmitters (serotonin, dopamine), hormones (melatonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine) and psychedelic drugs (psilocybin, DMT and mescaline).

I am starting to get it. RIMA's slow down or reduce the MAO's from breaking down several things, not just the dimethyltriptamine.

Is this the major reason that different ROA's produce different experiences because presence or lack of harmine and harmaline.?

 

[jungleDNBplz]

This topic reminded me of a closely related topic Ive been wondering about so I decided not to start another thread.

A. Im wondering if anyone has ever tried the shamanic colonic route of rectally administering distilled water solutions of DMT-Citrate and Harmala-Citrate?

B. Im also wondering about a similar method or a method to combine with A.: oral administration of Harmala salt, followed by rectal administration of the DMT salt 15-30 minutes later.

C. And yet another idea: oral and/or rectal and/or nasal dose of Harmala salt combined with nasal dose of DMT salt. Here I wonder about stinging sensation in the sinus

Just wondering if anyone has anything to say regarding A B or C

Im also wondering, in particular, if there is a qualitative difference between DMT salts like DMT-HCl, DMT-Fumarate, DMT-Tartrate and DMT-Citrate in terms of stinging sensation in the sinus while flooding with solution, and the same for the corresponding Harmala salts

The only anhydrous salts I have are citric and tartaric, so these are the only ones Ill be imminently testing. Will report back with results whether or not anyone responds.

Results 1: Must postpone testing until pH test strips are procured, at which point I will attempt to neutralize the solution to pH 7 with lye. The experiment was cancelled by simply diluting the solution and drinking for a typical pharmahuasca session. This experiment began with freebase DMT and freebase Harmala and anhydrous citric acid.

Results 2: I decided it would be most appropriate to neutralize the citric acid solution with its buffer salt Sodium Citrate, NOT with lye, so I will continue experimentation when my order of it arrives

Results 3 (Preparation of buffered salt solution of ayahuasca active molecules): By adding freebase DMT and freebase Harmala to a hot distilled water solution, then adding a pinch of anhydrous citric acid and mixing, the pH of the 5mL solution was brought to 2-3. Thereafter a pinch and a half of sodium citrate was added and mixed, bringing the pH to 6-7. I may have overbasified(over-buffered?) this solution as I noticed it became opaque when before it was translucent. No rectal discomfort, and only nasal discomfort due to taste.