DMT while breastfeeding

[jamie]

cows milk is for baby cows..human milk is for human babies.

Unless there is some serious reason(like a mother getting chemo) I dont really see giving a baby cows milk as a good idea..especially if it is not organic grass fed milk..all the hormones in most commercial baby formula can not be good for an infant. You can get soy baby formula but still..evolution did it the way it did it for a reason.

Nature designed mothers with breasts that feed human milk for a reason..becasue it is what human infants evolved to feed on..just like how cows milk is for infant cows.

 

[Shayku]

"It is entirely acceptable in this world to bullshit yourself, but it is criminal to bullshit someone else."

You mean like giving medical advice you’re not qualified to give to someone who didn’t ask for it after reading a couple of short forum posts?

My girlfriend and I are well aware that breast milk is the best for our baby and the decision to supplement was not a happy one but a necessary one. She feels unjustly guilty already. The type of discourse you’re holding is insensitive, presumptuous, paternalistic and sexist. We’re used to it though; it’s a predictable approach in some new-agey circles, as I’m sure you know.

"Your gonna have to take my word on this.... babies didn't starve to death in prehysterical days when there was no formula around."

I think you mean pre-historical – interesting slip. I fail to see why I have to take your word on this. Our baby was not eating enough, gaining less and less weight and crying at the boob once it was empty despite efforts to feed him often, using different methods, consulting with midwives, lactation specialists, nurses and doctors and trying different herbs and diets. He’s now happy and healthy, getting what he can from the boob and the rest from formula and food. We know what we’re doing. Your activist advice is baseless and dangerous. You should step away from the keyboard before someone takes you seriously.

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Now, I was asking about DMT in breastmilk.

Does it pass over? Does it stay there for long? Do babies also have MAOs in their stomachs? Etc.

Opinions welcome, advice on how well I'm doing in other areas of parenting not so much.

 

[jbark]

cows milk is for baby cows..human milk is for human babies.

Unless there is some serious reason(like a mother getting chemo) I dont really see giving a baby cows milk as a good idea..especially if it is not organic grass fed milk..all the hormones in most commercial baby formula can not be good for an infant. You can get soy baby formula but still..evolution did it the way it did it for a reason.

Nature designed mothers with breasts that feed human milk for a reason..becasue it is what human infants evolved to feed on..just like how cows milk is for infant cows.

There is theory and there is practice. I know you mean well, Jamie, but it is quite clear you have never had a kid (correct me if I am wrong). Maybe you will be able to transfer your theory to practice, maybe not, but judging people in a sphere in which you have ZERO experience (again, correct me if i am wrong) is misplaced at best.

And in terms of SERIOUS reasons, there are more serious reasons than you can imagine. In general, people these days do not take failing at breastfeeding lightly. It can be heartbreaking, but often the child's health is at stake, sometimes their life. IMO, La Leche has gone a long way to pushing us back a few centuries, and exhibits many qualities of a sect or cult.

For reasons I won't get into, I wasn't breastfed myself, and La Leche and their adherents would have you believe I am inferior. This is deeply offensive to me. Some of the comments in this thread run along those lines as well.

AND MAY I REMIND YOU ALL, SHAYKU WAS NOT ASKING FOR YOUR ADVICE ABOUT HIS AND HIS SPOUSE'S BREASTFEEDING REGIMEN.

'Nuff said.

Now can those of us with some knowledge advise Shayku about his original question and get this thread back on track?

Keep it up Shayku.

JBArk

PS - incidentally, if I have a strong response to this, it's perhaps because my son, now three, would likely be DEAD if it weren't for intravenous support and formula milk. Yes he was breastfed, but not healthily until he was 3 months old and had gained a pound to put him out range of being dangerously small and an infant mortality stat (not premature, just some complications that modern medicine mitigated and allowed him to live.)

PPS - despite this and three years later, we still have people look down their noses at us for feeding him formula when it was necessary. What any parent will tell you is that others' judgments are the least of your concerns when confronted with the health of your baby, but it is irritating nevertheless.

 

[Vodsel]

I'm sorry if I contributed to keep the thread off topic. The fact I have positively experienced breastfeeding through my daughter, and that I think it's preferable, doesn't change the fact that there ARE cases and circumstances where the choice might be hardly possible. So let's acknowledge that and keep it like this.

Now, ON TOPIC. DMT While breastfeeding.

The question made me curious and I've made a little searching. I am not a health professional, so I cannot give a thorough, detailed answer. But I'm leaving here bits of information, opinions and links I've come across.

There is (understandably) more bits about ayahuasca and pregnancy/breastfeeding than specifically DMT. In these lines, you can check this little community in facebook. I found this post in an online tribe:

I was told by doña María Tuesta that a woman should not drink ayahuasca while lactating. I was not given a reason -- just that ayahuasca should not be in the breast milk.

Surprisingly, both mestizo and Shuar women believe that it is a good thing to drink ayahuasca while pregnant. The idea is that the ayahuasca gets into the child and gives it fuerza, power.

That is what I was told. You should presume that it has no scientific basis, and treat it as as folklore.

So folklore it is. If it was folklore with a basis, we should also consider the possibility of b-carbolines being the inconvenient, not DMT.

Regarding DMT, I'm leaving comments from a thread in another community. Some points make sense to me, others not so much. If any other nexian has more experience or knowledge, please discuss.

What makes the difference is if the substance is lipid soluble(swim could be wrong here but thats just what he thinks). Formula feeding would probably be appropriate for a few days after(no more than a week should be necessary) as DMT is lipid soluble which is shown in its ability to cross the blood brain barrier. Swim hopes this helps but swim is not a doctor so he may be wrong, perhaps someone else can offer some advice?

A very small amount of most drugs have the potential to be present in breastmilk. In addition, half-life is important in determining whether a drug might be present... as DMT's half life is extremely short, only about 15 minutes, and only about 1% of most drugs perhaps show up in the breastmilk (http://life.familyeducation.com/brea...e=2&detoured=1), AND DMT dosage is only a fraction of a gram, unless you are breastfeeding immediately after smoking then my dog says that there will be an incredibly small amount of DMT available in the body to even possibly be a part of the breastmilk... my dog would say as long as SWIY gives an hour or two before feeding after smoking the DMT, it is quite safe. My dog would say it is probably completely safe no matter what, but obviously with a child (and an extremely young one at that), better safe than sorry. My dog would suggest formula for a few days just to be even safer, but again, my dog says SWIY really has nothing to worry about.

I have to fall on the 'it's safe' side. A miniscule amount of DMT won't hurt a baby - its body has a built in defense, MAO, which will make short work of the drug - and in all likelihood the amount of DMT would be completely insignificant.
The only way I could see this being a problem is if you take DMT literally at the same time as breastfeeding - but seeing as you are able to write coherent sentences I'm assuming you're smart enough to know that's a bad idea.

Let me add some real world facts. In Santo Daime workings where people drink Ayahuasca, several pregnant women are there, and yes they drink the Daime. Other women have toddlers and are breastfeeding, yet they are there 2-3 times a month receiving the Sacrament. This is an ongoing practice for over 50 years for tens of thousands of people, and as far as I know there has never occurred any single issue.

As people have said, there will only be miniscule amounts of DMT in the breastmilk, and the baby's monoamine oxidase will rapidly degrade the molecule if it makes it into the stomach. Remember that everyone ingests tiny bits of DMT from everyday foods. It is not known to be at all harmful.

My first reaction was in agreement with the majority of prior posts in supposing that it's likely harmless, and presents negligible damage. However, this is really a question of risk to benefit - as no studies have been conducted on this particular interaction. We can inform this question with some extrapolation from the activities observed from other serotonergic drugs during pregnancy, and though the interactions certainly wont be identical, they are certainly relevant.

Here is a study named Effects of Exposure to Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors During Pregnancy on Serotonergic Symptoms in Newborns and Cord Blood Monoamine and Prolactin Concentrations, in which I was fortunate to come upon some potentially relevant statements; if interested, allow me to direct your attention to a few of the more salient ones:

Originally Posted by Kari Laine, MD, PhD; Tuija Heikkinen, MD; Ulla Ekblad, MD, PhD; Pentti Kero, MD, PhD

The exposure to SSRI treatment during pregnancy ranged from 7 to 41 weeks. In the SSRI group, 9 women were exposed to citalopram and 6 women to fluoxetine already during the first trimester of pregnancy. No malformations were detected. The duration of pregnancy was similar in the SSRI group and the control group.

There were no major differences in the vital signs of the infants during the first 2 months of life (Table 3). The only difference was significantly higher heart rate in the SSRI group compared with the control group (P = .049, t31 = 2.039) at the age of 2 weeks.

A clear difference was seen in the perinatal clinical serotonergic symptoms between the study groups. There was a statistically significant, 4-fold difference in the serotonergic symptom score during the first 4 days of life between the SSRI group and the control group. The most prominent symptoms in the newborns included tremor, restlessness, and rigidity. One of the newborns in the SSRI (fluoxetine) group had myoclonus, which is considered a specific symptom of serotonergic overstimulation in adults but rarely seen in newborns.

Treatment with SSRIs induced a significant (69%) reduction of umbilical vein whole blood serotonin concentrations compared with the control group. Similarly, significantly lower concentrations of whole blood 5-HIAA (18%) and HVA (23%) were observed in the SSRI-exposed infants compared with the control group.

Treatment with SSRIs induced a significant (69%) reduction of umbilical vein whole blood serotonin concentrations compared with the control group (Table 4). Similarly, significantly lower concentrations of whole blood 5-HIAA (18%) and HVA (23%) were observed in the SSRI-exposed infants compared with the control group.

...we report increased risk for central nervous system serotonergic adverse effects during the first days of life in newborns of mothers taking the SSRIs citalopram or fluoxetine during the third trimester of pregnancy. However, these symptoms seem to subside quickly without any need for specific treatment. A timely relationship between declining drug concentrations and resolution of the adverse symptoms suggests that the mechanism behind the symptoms was central nervous system serotonergic overstimulation rather than an SSRI withdrawal syndrome.​

There are a few significant differences between typical DMT usage patterns and SSRI treatment - namely, DMT is typically taken in acute doses/sessions, and not over the course of several days or weeks. Accordingly, given the mild reactions observed in these infants, as well as typical usage of the psychedelic, there most likely isn't anything significant to worry about.

However, as the title of the thread is "Is it safe to take DMT while breastfeeding," it's certainly worth mentioning that sustained use of any serotonergic psychedelic while pregnant is almost certainly hazardous - given the results observed in infants from enhanced serotonergic activity. This is speculation, but given the apparent lipophilicity of DMT, it's not unreasonable to anticipate reasonably conserved levels of DMT in breast milk, and may persist for a reasonably prolonged duration.

In sum, it's unlikely that acute doses of DMT will generate any significant repercussions during pregnancy - but studies do indeed show that enhanced serotonergic activity, derived from prolonged maternal exposure to drugs enhancing serotonergic activity, is deleterious to early development of infants. Accordingly, it's likely prudent - in effort to eliminate any probability of danger to the infant - to reserve potential DMT experiences for after a pregnancy has come to fruition. I suppose this is somewhat subjective, though.

And I'd like to finish with this one:

True, monoamine oxidase is responsible for degradation of the molecule before it can reach relevant receptors - but are such metabolic enzymes sufficiently active in developing infants to ensure no activity will be realized? Given enough DMT, granted very large doses will be required, psychoactive effects may be realized without ingestion of an MAOI in adults (though not nearly as severely). Additionally, infant biochemical factors are characterized as hosting consistently higher affinities for ligands than those expressed in adults - thereby ensuring an infant will optimally obtain nutrients from maternal sources. Also, the compound may indeed accumulate in breast milk, and be characterized as persisting for prolonged periods of time. Accordingly, the inactivity of oral DMT in adults isn't a safe assumption to be applied to infants. However, you may indeed be right - it could be a moot issue, as MAO may indeed be highly active in developing infants.

Additionally, the authors state that observed complications likely didn't arise from SSRI accumulation in fetal circuits - but rather that enhanced serotonergic activity alone was likely the culprit causing serotonergic symptoms observed post-birth. This is why the results of the above-mentioned study may be applicable to this dynamic, as DMT is actually a serotonergic agonist (among other things) while SSRIs act at transporter proteins.

The point here is whether ingesting DMT while breast-feeding is safe. While any activity realized by the infant may be negligible, the potential for unanticipated interactions to occur is such that potential harm can't be ruled out.

 

[polytrip]

There probably is some risk. The use of substances like melatonin is discouraged as well, for women who´re pregnant or breastfeeding. Beside that..A year ago, or so, infundibulum started a thread about hormonal effects of DMT. Apparently there are some (at least in women).

I don´t think that movements like the santo-daime offer ground for arguments here. No scientific study has ever been done, as far as i´m aware, concerning THIS peticular issue.

About the breastfeeding discussion: love and care are extremely important for a baby. If a baby doesn´t receive enough love during the first few months....this actually results in BRAINDAMAGE that is so dramatic that even layman like myself can easily see it on a brainscan.

While breastfeeding is a normal part of this 'maternal love and care', taking care of a newborn child is such a daunting, complex and hugely underestimated task that NO parent in the world will ever succeed in doing a perfect job here.
But as long as a child is loved and cared for, a little mistake here or there will have no big consequences. As long as a child is getting ENOUGH of this 'love and care-package', it´s no big disaster at all if it´s not 'completely perfect'.

I would not make too big a deal out of it. Breastmilk is definately more healthy than replacements, during the first months. But it´s part of a 'package'. And as long as the total package is good, it´s no big deal at all when for some reason, breastfeeding isn´t an option.
Part of why breastfeeding is so beneficial for a child, is because it strengthens the bond between mother and child. That bond is much more vital than milk is.

 

[Korey]

Jamie, I find it interesting that you would rather your baby consume breast milk, than cow's milk, but you're totally okay with your baby receiving psychedelic doses of ayahuasca while in utero. I am not attacking you, just curious if you could expand on these ideas.

 

[jamie]

Sure, I believe ayahuasca is great for humans and I think cows milk is discusting. Im sorry I just dont beleive humans are designed to ingest dairy. It is fine if people believe otherwise, I just dont. Cows milk is for baby cows. Human infants evolved to ingest human milk..and then when we reach a certain age we eat other foods. Sucking on the tits of some other lactating animal who is really making that milk for it's own infant offspring while we are full grown adults seems absurd to me..but hey that is just me.

That is not really the point though..becasue I know that infants are sopposed to drink milk..but mothers breast milk..from a HUMAN mother.

For one, a child who is not breast fed from the mother is going to have a much weaker immune system..human milk and cows milk are not the same! I will never ever give my children(when I have them) cows milk! I am lactose intlerant anyway..my mother is lactose intolerant etc..my gf had problem with cows milk..why would I think my children should have cows milk? I drank it for years and my mothers doctor told my mother I was probly intolerant when I was a child..later on as a kid I had problems and I was tested because they thought again I was intolerant to it..they gave me crappy skin prick tests that are baiscally useless..came back negative of course..later on about 5 years ago when I was 23 I was tested again..this time full blood tests that cost alot of money and I come up completely lactose intolerant. Never drank milk again and I dont miss it one bit. I always thought milk was completely discusting anyway and did not drink it, though I did eat cheese. I always had a natural aversion to dairy and now I know why..my body was trying to say no.

I wonder how many other people are lactose intolerant and just dont know?

So I just dont believe personally that we have evolved to ingest cows milk or fermented cows milk products. I have alot of reasons to believe this and wont subject any future children to it, they will be breastfed. I do not however, have any evidence to suggest that a mother drinking mild doses of ayahuasca while pregnant like the diame do causes any harm at all..and until we have some actual evidence it is all just people speculating, while the whole thing about breast feeding a child vs bovine baby formula does have some solid information behind it.

 

[Korey]

I understand the milk aspect of your argument completely, and actually agree with most of it.(I don't think it's insane for an adult to drink dairy ) I would not be okay with my baby ingesting dairy over breast milk until the he/she reaches the age my wife and I saw fit for the baby to cease breastfeeding.

Of course it's all speculation at this point, but how many studies have actually been done on this? To want to protect your child by not allowing he/she to consume dairy milk is commendable, but to allow your wife to consume psychedelic doses of DMT while pregnant with another human being, is not only selfish and reckless behavior on her part, but not admirable to condone her in doing so.

To say you're okay with it because there's no evidence that proves it's unsafe does not make sense to me, because I know of no literature that proves that it is safe.