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Do you believe in karma? And why?
- Thread starter DM3
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Id say it depends on what your definition of karma is. Sometimes is compared to simple cause and effect. There is also the do good and good comes back, which I assume is somewhat distorted.
To me it was explained as something more in line with inertia, once the ball starts rolling it requires effort to stop, its the tendency for things to repeat themselves. In that sense karma is tightly linked to forgiveness.
This is not the usual definition of karma as far as I know though.
Either way things will happen in your present that are related to your past. Sounds believable to me.
To me it was explained as something more in line with inertia, once the ball starts rolling it requires effort to stop, its the tendency for things to repeat themselves. In that sense karma is tightly linked to forgiveness.
This is not the usual definition of karma as far as I know though.
Either way things will happen in your present that are related to your past. Sounds believable to me.
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- Merits
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Not in the West, but I think it's much closer to the actual Hindu idea of karma.
If you believe in it, then it's real. Furthermore, if it can be real, then it is.
Philosophy aside, I would like to add onto what @ShadedSelf said about it depending on your definition of karma. It also seems to depend on your belief system. For example if you subscribe to the Kabbalah system, then karma is rather transformed into the idea that you attract whatever energy you put out in the world. If you vibrate in a low, malevolent frequency and mean harm to others, harm shall come to you, and vice versa. I suppose that's a form of karma, but the central belief in Kabbalah is that it is your certainty that it's all for your good that opens the floodgates for good fortune to come into your life. That no matter how bad a thing happens, you must preserve your certainty that it's happening for a reason, and that reason is to make you better and stronger. So in that system the cycle goes like this:
You cause harm to someone out of insecurity that they're better than you (for example) > later in life harm comes back your way because of this > an opportunity arises for you to recognize the reason why this is happening to you > you either take the opportunity and learn from it, becoming less insecure in the process, or > you don't learn anything, you suffer an blame your bad fortune, creating fertile ground for causing more harm out of an even deeper sense of insecurity > rinse and repeat.
This is what the Kabbalists call your soul's "tikun" - the various imperfections your soul was born with, and the process of healing them one by one by virtue of being exposed to them in a mirror-like manner. Life forces you to encounter that which you are insecure of as a way of dealing with it. You know, kind of like what psychedelic work tends to do
That's just one perspective though, I'm sure there are many more interpretations and belief systems that explore the concept of karma. I personally believe in doing and being good. Not out of some righteous fear that otherwise I will be punished, but because it feels good to be a genuinely kind, good human being. I suppose there's always a portion of selfishness in being kind to others simply because it feels good, but still, if at the end of the day my actions and modus operandi make the world a marginally better place, then I know I'm living properly.
Philosophy aside, I would like to add onto what @ShadedSelf said about it depending on your definition of karma. It also seems to depend on your belief system. For example if you subscribe to the Kabbalah system, then karma is rather transformed into the idea that you attract whatever energy you put out in the world. If you vibrate in a low, malevolent frequency and mean harm to others, harm shall come to you, and vice versa. I suppose that's a form of karma, but the central belief in Kabbalah is that it is your certainty that it's all for your good that opens the floodgates for good fortune to come into your life. That no matter how bad a thing happens, you must preserve your certainty that it's happening for a reason, and that reason is to make you better and stronger. So in that system the cycle goes like this:
You cause harm to someone out of insecurity that they're better than you (for example) > later in life harm comes back your way because of this > an opportunity arises for you to recognize the reason why this is happening to you > you either take the opportunity and learn from it, becoming less insecure in the process, or > you don't learn anything, you suffer an blame your bad fortune, creating fertile ground for causing more harm out of an even deeper sense of insecurity > rinse and repeat.
This is what the Kabbalists call your soul's "tikun" - the various imperfections your soul was born with, and the process of healing them one by one by virtue of being exposed to them in a mirror-like manner. Life forces you to encounter that which you are insecure of as a way of dealing with it. You know, kind of like what psychedelic work tends to do
That's just one perspective though, I'm sure there are many more interpretations and belief systems that explore the concept of karma. I personally believe in doing and being good. Not out of some righteous fear that otherwise I will be punished, but because it feels good to be a genuinely kind, good human being. I suppose there's always a portion of selfishness in being kind to others simply because it feels good, but still, if at the end of the day my actions and modus operandi make the world a marginally better place, then I know I'm living properly.
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In the sense of a divine balance where people get what they deserve, no I don’t believe karma is real. Look at the world. The most psychopathic can transcend consequences through power. Some of the best people are most powerless and frequently taken advantage of.
IMO it’s a human construct to smooth over the pain of being wronged. Similar to heaven/hell, it convinces people to give up their conviction and trust that a make believe justice will look out for them. And reinforces obedience to constructed laws
IMO it’s a human construct to smooth over the pain of being wronged. Similar to heaven/hell, it convinces people to give up their conviction and trust that a make believe justice will look out for them. And reinforces obedience to constructed laws
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newusername1
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I believe that in budhism, karma is indeed more the idea of cause and consequence as shadedself and bligblug said.
So in budhism karma is not inherently moral at all.
I may be wrong but i think karma is the very general idea of cause and effect, but in budhism there is especially a focus on unintended consequences. Consequences as the result of ignorance and false beliefs, and the idea is that when we shed these false beliefs, like ego, there will be less unintended consequences.
In that sense what we are collectively experiencing now is very karmic. Because of ignorance and false beliefs the most evil and psychopathic people around have risen to power and millions of innocent people are suffering because of that.
There is no morality in this interpretation of karma. The morality is in our willingness or lack thereof to check whether our beliefs are justified or not, our willingness to face up to what part we are playing in everything that's happening around us.
And there may very well be no reward at all when we do the right thing. That's why it's moral to do what's right and not simply a matter of self-interst.
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I feel like karma, in simple terms, is detailed as esoteric cause and effect. Or even, dare I say, trans cause and effect.
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Define 'real'.
As others have said, looking at the world, it's hard to accept that doing good will ensure good will happen to you, or vice versa.
I suppose believing this could help you have a more positive feeling about the world, like it isn't actually as unfair as the evidence before your eyes suggests.
For the 800years or so since the term first surfaced in the Rigveda, around 3500 years ago, it seems to have a limited meaning of ritual action. Its philosophical scope was extended in the Upanishads, 2800yrs ago, where the consequences of actions were attached to it.
Looking at Indian/Hindu culture and society, it's hard for me to escape the feeling that the concept has been somewhat warped to justify the brutal inequality that is inescapable. The caste system (I'm not even going to go there) is justified, at least partly, by the concept of past life karma. Hideous justification of the indefensible, imo, so, in answer to DM3's question, I don't believe it is 'real' as the modern world sees it.
As others have said, looking at the world, it's hard to accept that doing good will ensure good will happen to you, or vice versa.
I suppose believing this could help you have a more positive feeling about the world, like it isn't actually as unfair as the evidence before your eyes suggests.
For the 800years or so since the term first surfaced in the Rigveda, around 3500 years ago, it seems to have a limited meaning of ritual action. Its philosophical scope was extended in the Upanishads, 2800yrs ago, where the consequences of actions were attached to it.
Looking at Indian/Hindu culture and society, it's hard for me to escape the feeling that the concept has been somewhat warped to justify the brutal inequality that is inescapable. The caste system (I'm not even going to go there) is justified, at least partly, by the concept of past life karma. Hideous justification of the indefensible, imo, so, in answer to DM3's question, I don't believe it is 'real' as the modern world sees it.
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“If you want to know your past life, look into your present condition. If you want to know your future life, look at your present actions.”
- Buddha
Karma is just a law, similar to gravity. There is no mystery behind it, and trying to understand it from the perspective of a single incarnation is somewhat useless.
It is like trying to see an entire valley from the slope of a mountain; you need a higher vantage point for a reasonable overview.
Here is a good read about prarabdha
- Buddha
Karma is just a law, similar to gravity. There is no mystery behind it, and trying to understand it from the perspective of a single incarnation is somewhat useless.
It is like trying to see an entire valley from the slope of a mountain; you need a higher vantage point for a reasonable overview.
Here is a good read about prarabdha
- Merits
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What if I said that trying to understand it from any other perspective than the exact present moment is useless?
I personally don't believe in reincarnation at all (rebirth is a different issue), as I only have strong claims from other people to support it. Nothing in my experience has ever pointed that way. I make an effort to remain relatively open to any perspective in this regard, but as of now I have zero reasons to consider it beyond an intellectual exercise.
In any case, it seems to me kind of moot to say much about these issues. If someone has not found any reason to consider it true, words won't (or at least shouldn't) change that, having any kind of spiritual belief based on other people's words seems between futile and dangerous to me. If someone has found reasons to believe in it in their experience, they will never be able to communicate such a personal and (presumably) beyond words experience to others successfully. They can at most point the way to see that by oneself, but it may as well be just a way to delude oneself. There are no guarantees in these matters.
Going back to my first paragraph, the problem with any strong assertion in this area, one that's not qualified as being based on one's own experience but purports to express some universal truth, is that the exact opposite can be said as easily, with the same impossibility to bring anything for or against it beyond mere words.
I highly respect your perspective @northape and know that you don't really mean it in absolute terms. But reading absolute words made me say some other absolute words in turn
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As always, I am only preaching my own dogma or sharing my mindI highly respect your perspective @northape and know that you don't really mean it in absolute terms. But reading absolute words made me say some other absolute words in turn
I have strong faith in reincarnation, and many synchronicities in my life point toward it.
However, as you said, there is no evidence. It works for me, but it may raise an eyebrow for someone else. Here is the closest example that resonates with me:
“Reverend Nagasena” said the King, “when a man is born does he remain the same (being) or become another?”
“He neither remains the same nor becomes another”.
“Give me an example!”
“Suppose a man were to light a lamp, would it burn all through the night?”
“Yes, it might.”
“Now, is the flame which burns in the middle watch the same as that which burned in the first?”
“No, Your Reverence,”
“So, is there one lamp in the first watch, another in the middle, and yet another in the last?”
“No, the lamp gives light all through the night.”
“Similarly, your Majesty, the continuity of phenomena is kept up. One person comes into existence, another passes away, and the sequence
runs continuously without self-conscious existence, neither the same nor yet another.”
“Well said, Reverend Nagasena. Reverend Nagasena” said the King, “is it true that nothing transmigrates, and yet there is rebirth?”
“Yes, your Majesty.”
“How can this be? Give me an illustration.”
“Suppose your Majesty, a man lights one lamp from another – does the one lamp transmigrate to the other?”
“No, Your Reverence.”
“So, there is rebirth without anything transmigration!”
“He neither remains the same nor becomes another”.
“Give me an example!”
“Suppose a man were to light a lamp, would it burn all through the night?”
“Yes, it might.”
“Now, is the flame which burns in the middle watch the same as that which burned in the first?”
“No, Your Reverence,”
“So, is there one lamp in the first watch, another in the middle, and yet another in the last?”
“No, the lamp gives light all through the night.”
“Similarly, your Majesty, the continuity of phenomena is kept up. One person comes into existence, another passes away, and the sequence
runs continuously without self-conscious existence, neither the same nor yet another.”
“Well said, Reverend Nagasena. Reverend Nagasena” said the King, “is it true that nothing transmigrates, and yet there is rebirth?”
“Yes, your Majesty.”
“How can this be? Give me an illustration.”
“Suppose your Majesty, a man lights one lamp from another – does the one lamp transmigrate to the other?”
“No, Your Reverence.”
“So, there is rebirth without anything transmigration!”
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Note that the passage you quote is about rebirth, and not reincarnation. Reincarnation implies a form of rebirth, but the opposite needn't be true. I have seen that process of moment to moment rebirth in myself and take it as true for myself (I can't pretend to know how it is for others, I assume it's similar but that's just an assumption), however I have never seen anything pointing towards reincarnation, in myself or otherwise.
Going back to karma, the thread's topic, it's similar: I have observed in myself how the previous mind moment conditions (but not determines) the next, this is actually quite intuitive in its most basic form. However I don't think there's a reason for me to think that good aspects of my life are a consequence of some virtuous acts in past incarnations of mine, and the negative ones consequences of bad actions. And even if that were the case, I don't see why that should change in any way my approach to them. I think their origin, be it past-incarnation karma, a witch's curse, God's punishment, a random event, or anything else, say nothing about what we should do about it now. At least it changes nothing for me if the root cause of issue X was that I once was an Inquisitor torturing heathens or some similar "evil" past life. The path to deal with it is the same, as I see it.
Going back to karma, the thread's topic, it's similar: I have observed in myself how the previous mind moment conditions (but not determines) the next, this is actually quite intuitive in its most basic form. However I don't think there's a reason for me to think that good aspects of my life are a consequence of some virtuous acts in past incarnations of mine, and the negative ones consequences of bad actions. And even if that were the case, I don't see why that should change in any way my approach to them. I think their origin, be it past-incarnation karma, a witch's curse, God's punishment, a random event, or anything else, say nothing about what we should do about it now. At least it changes nothing for me if the root cause of issue X was that I once was an Inquisitor torturing heathens or some similar "evil" past life. The path to deal with it is the same, as I see it.
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We are in total agreement, actually. My limited language skills create more misunderstanding than necessary, which is why I provided a passage from King Milinda. So, I believe in rebirth, thanks. I also agree with your entire approach to dealing with karma. I found a helpful passage on karma from my favorite Dzogchen book:
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u wot m8?
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I think it's more about the limits of language itself. But I did think you were talking about past incarnations.
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I do not believe that past incarnations have anything to do with me, beyond the same energy being passed on, as described in the lamp metaphor. My next incarnation will not be another version of myself, but what I do now will influence how that future being experiences life. I have no way to confirm this, however.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
and Wisdom to know the difference.
- Serenity Prayer
Well, it seems that the spirit of my beloved cat, that somewhat recently passed, has returned in the form of a squirrel.
Kind of interesting because that cat had a special friendly interaction with squirrels. On top of the fact that she and a squirrel had brought me some profound insights. With me sitting by a fire, the squirrel purposely tried to drop a half eaten pinecone on sleeping beauty under the oak tree. Clearly showing intent and thought.
We now have a squirrel in our yard that comes to us and eats out of our hands. Without us trying to train this squirrel. We now collect nuts from all over the place. She prefers pecans, even over peanuts.
So, seemingly, our little sweetheart returned in a different form. The form of a pregnant squirrel.
Coincidence? My days of believing in the stories of coincidence are over. For me it seems like everything is happening with intent, intent that is created by something that is trying to communicate. We just have to learn the 'language' and who knows what we may learn.
Fantastical, for sure. But, what is not a fantastical story? And with everything being a story spun by ourselves, any story created by oneself is as valid as whatever other story.
Kind of interesting because that cat had a special friendly interaction with squirrels. On top of the fact that she and a squirrel had brought me some profound insights. With me sitting by a fire, the squirrel purposely tried to drop a half eaten pinecone on sleeping beauty under the oak tree. Clearly showing intent and thought.
We now have a squirrel in our yard that comes to us and eats out of our hands. Without us trying to train this squirrel. We now collect nuts from all over the place. She prefers pecans, even over peanuts.
So, seemingly, our little sweetheart returned in a different form. The form of a pregnant squirrel.
Coincidence? My days of believing in the stories of coincidence are over. For me it seems like everything is happening with intent, intent that is created by something that is trying to communicate. We just have to learn the 'language' and who knows what we may learn.
Fantastical, for sure. But, what is not a fantastical story? And with everything being a story spun by ourselves, any story created by oneself is as valid as whatever other story.
I'm 100% aligned with your description rkba. We live in a 3 acre field in an RV for the last 7 months. A few months ago we had an incredible moment with a male red kite. I threw up a piece of sausage, the kite swooped down and caught it mid air.
He flew off and right as he crossed the boundary of our land he whistled happily and dropped us a magnificent wing feather.
We bounded across the field to find it. Neither me nor my partner and our two children had any doubt that this was a deliberate gift to thank us. No way a coincidence. I dont believe in coincidence at all at this point in my life.
He flew off and right as he crossed the boundary of our land he whistled happily and dropped us a magnificent wing feather.
We bounded across the field to find it. Neither me nor my partner and our two children had any doubt that this was a deliberate gift to thank us. No way a coincidence. I dont believe in coincidence at all at this point in my life.
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This world is pure magic, filled with conscious intent. Whether or not karma exists, the primary point is to be present and aware.
I am a dream character in my own fantasy, and the entire show is made possible through the knowing that illuminates it all. What is the nature of that knowing?
I am a dream character in my own fantasy, and the entire show is made possible through the knowing that illuminates it all. What is the nature of that knowing?
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