Do you believe in karma?

[n0thing]

if you put good things into the world, good things will come to you, if you put negative things in the world negative things will come to you. "What goes around comes around" "cause and effect"

...but of coarse there is no judge, and you can not expect to be rewarded or punished...

you have a very strange way of understanding these things, at least from my perspective, because I disagree with a good deal here, but I also feel it's not my place to tell a person how to perceive certain concepts. Your views here are for sure very different than my own, I'll just leave it at that.

Maybe because I state with a language of certainty when really nothing is certain, and I should instead pepper my words with lots of "I believe" and "I think". In the DMT Nexus I will take "strange" as a compliment .

We are so out on a limb here, there is no objective evidence for Karma - so we can only argue this if (a)There is Karma and (b)Either of us really knows anything subjectively. So certainly my outlook is not the classic one from Hinduism or Buddhism. You could even say that I do not agree with Karma, but here is option number 2 which I do currently believe and is quite similar.

My issue is that Karma requires context on what is positive and what is negative, these only exist relative to a specific position.

And I don't disagree with what you say in general terms, but I believe that if the generally accepted model were Newtonian Mechanics, that there are more accurate models such as General Relativity.

I believe that the reason it generally works, is because people judge their own actions (the positive and negative are judged by them), and we often have extremely similar conceptions of what positive and negative are. Generally the criminal exploiting people knows that he/she is doing wrong and expects punishment.

The reason I discuss judgement and reward is because that is how the human mind works and how we choose to apply this to ourselves.

Many people, I would judge as good, subconsciously draw negatives to themselves because of their own level of judgement, and many people who have done questionable things feel no issue with it and continue to pull good things to themselves.

One of my luckiest friends works for petrochemical companies finding oil. Many would consider this to be a hideous negative act, but he does not and is chilled, happy, wealthy and lucky.

My point being is that as the judge your own Karma, you have a lot of power to go easy on yourself - but that is the difficult part.

Of course we can only ever "know" anything relatively so it makes no sense to speak of objective truth.

The issue with people believing in karma is how likely they are to make inferences based on how common one occurrence could be linked with another.

For instance, you sell a bicycle to someone knowing that the inner tubing has had it and will pop very soon. You do it knowingly because you want to money. The next week your own tire pops on your own bicycle. Any rational person would put two and two together but there are overly rational scientific atheist types who don't want to draw conclusions like that anymore, even when it is incredibly more evident than that bicycle example they will still refuse to believe anything unless it is tangible. I think that is just plain silly and sort of 'pulling the wool over your own eyes" just for the sake of being sophisticated and methodical. There as bad as Christians I tell you.

 

[nina]

I believe in karma. Everything bad I've done it the past came out during my psychotic break.

I have a blank slate now, so everything I do is that much more important (I can clearly feel the effects of negative thoughts and actions now...it completely changed my life).

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I believe that karma is an undeniable part of existance, yet random chance exists as well, meaning despite your good karma, by random chance, bad things may still happen to you, and vis versa.

Opposites define each other rather than negate each other.

When it comes to Buddhism, I think it would be useful for all people to review the four Nobel truths and the eightfold path at least once, and not even for spiritual reasons, but so they are able to understand existance better.

There are "hidden truths" out there, but theses things are not "hidden" because someone is deliberately hiding them or trying to keep them secret, they are "hidden" truths because they are not obvious, and had they not been pointed out to you, you probably never would have figured it out.

The pictures of the burning monks reminded of a modern situation involving Tibetan monks burning themselves in protest of the theft of their homeland and victimization of their people...

In true Buddhist fashion, they should have "let it go", all things are impermanent, even homelands, you must accept the good and the bad equally, and be mindful of your thoughts, actions and words, as to avoid causing yourself or others suffering.

These monks are deluded by ego, attachment and desire, and it's causing suffering and suicide.

It's their ATTATCHMENT to their homeland, which has been taken, which causes them to suffer, yet all things are impermanent, even homelands.

It's their DESIRE to have their homelandback , and their DESIRE to seek justice which causes them to suffer.

And it's their ego which made them think it was their land to begin with, it's their ego which allows them to feel anger and makes them want to seek revenge, it's their ego that's causing suffering...

When you watched the Tibetans leaving Tibet, you did not see people in tears, you did not see sadness, you saw smiles, laughter, and happiness...

When the dhali lama was asked if he could say anything to the Chinese what would it be, and he replied "I forgive you"

So not all Tibetans have succumbed to the illusions of ego, desire, and attachments, but the ones who are burning themselves, the ones who are suffering over their losses and victimization, the ones who feel they need to hold onto to all if this, have lost their way, and forgotten the basic principles of Buddhist philosophy.

-eg

I have seen the videos of the newer self-immolizations and I saw the monks screaming in pain, obviously a sign of still being wrapped in the ego. But the picture of the burning monk in SE asia that I posted was evidently a monk who had either become enlightened or understood how to switch pain of entirely, something which very few people still attached to their ego could do.

So I think you are wrong to generalize buddhist monks as crazy egotistical wannabes who set themselves on fire because of their ego delusions. It is not true in all cases which is why that picture I posted had the monk sitting the whole time until his death, not flinching a muscle

That's not what I was saying at all.

I was explaining how ego, attachment, and desire was causing a small group of monks to suffer, and that by a simple reexamination of their core principles this suffering could easily be stopped.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

OKay, let's start by examining the NON-WESTERN idea of karma:

Karma literally means action. The law of karma is often misinterpreted to say that essentially "What goes around comes around". This is not the case. Karma is a law that more closely looks like causality.

Westerners look at karma and think of it like "If I do good things, good things will happen and bad things will not." Once again this is a misguided view.
A more Eastern view would say something like "One cannot plant an apple seed and get an orange tree."

That's not to say that Karma as the West is concerned isn't true to some extent; if you do good things, people are much more likely to do good things to you, and vice versa.
Conversely, if you do bad things, often you end up around unsavoury people who are also doing bad things and may do bad things to you, but this doesn't come about as a result of some kind of karmic currency system. This is just simple cause and effect. When it comes to what sort of results you get out of life, Buddha says you might have to wait a few lives to reap what you have sown. Perhaps Hitler was reborn in a city he had laid waste to and had to see the results first hand? See, this enters the realm of speculation.

Modern physics looks more like the law of karma, than say, the justice system. Physics tells us the same thing the Buddha says i.e. "This happens because that happens. This does not happen because that does not happen."

The differences between "western" and "eastern" views on karma are minimal in my opinion.

The origin of the word karma is derived from the Sanskrit "karman" which meams "action, effect, and fate", and while action is a key aspect of karma, you cannot neglect the other definitions of the word, which bring it into proper perspective.

Karma originated from a word meaning "action, effect, and fate", yet the word karma was further defined in the traditions of the east to take on more specific implications.

Below are some definitions of karma, which you should also keep in mind means different things to different people, I'm not very enthused about these definitions, but they carry across the basic point.

According to Buddhism, this inequality is due not only to heredity, environment, "nature and nurture", but also to Karma. In other words, it is the result of our own past actions and our own present doings. We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.

Basic Buddhism: The Theory of Karma

Karma is not a punishment or reward but simply an extended expression or consequence of natural acts from a past action. According to some Indian religions. Karma is not fate. They believe we have free will, so we are always free to create our own destiny.

Take a look at the another notion of karma. Westerners say words like: You reap what you sow, live by the sword die by the sword or what goes around comes around. In other words: What we put out is returned to us.We can expect the same result when we do something for or against another. This is like the Law of Attraction in some ways. Ex: If you think about a person with a good or bad intention for them you are sending energy at that moment. You move on in your life however, At some point in your life that energy will be reflected back to you. Karma will return to the person in some way, no one knows how or when though. The karmic return will happen whenever the universe finds the time to complete its karmic cycle. Other religions say The law of cause and effect is another way of saying The Law of Karma. The life should be measured by the amount of karmic debt one has.

The Law of Karma Defined

Karma is defined as many things. Some say it’s definition is: You get what you put out. Whatever you release into the universe, Comes back to you in one way or another. Some religions say ka…

blissreturned.wordpress.com

-eg

 

[Sherlockian_Holmes]

Karma is simple, it's cause and effect. The word itself means /action/. Nothing more, nothing less.

The problem is that we are not capable of seeing our past conditions clearly, so when something happens, we do not understand why. We think we did not "deserve" it, but that is not the case either. Everything that has ever happened to you, good or bad (good and bad are just interpreted by you as egoic identity and has nothing to do with what you really are which exists outside of duality) happened because of your past actions.

So when we say who is the judge? There's no judge. There's just your actions and the effects of those actions. The Buddha explained it thus:

"These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result; kamma that is bright with bright result; kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result; and kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

"And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication... an injurious verbal fabrication... an injurious mental fabrication... He rearises in an injurious world where he is touched by injurious contacts... He experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result.

"And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an uninjurious bodily fabrication... an uninjurious verbal fabrication... an uninjurious mental fabrication... He rearises in an uninjurious world where he is touched by uninjurious contacts... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Ever-radiant Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result.

"And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a mental fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... He rearises in an injurious & uninjurious world where he is touched by injurious & uninjurious contacts... He experiences injurious & uninjurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? The intention right there to abandon this kamma that is dark with dark result... this kamma that is bright with bright result... this kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

The Buddha, the blessed One, made use of his insight into the nature of cause and effect and was capable of seeing the immensity of effects from our actions. Looking into thousands of past lives one can gather how beings are destined to certain fates due to the action of karma. Buddha awoke to dependent origination/arising (The Buddhist Teaching on the Twelve Links of Existence) and realized the fate of specific types of actions.

 

[tseuq]

Karma ... The word itself means /action/. ... So when we say who is the judge? There's no judge. There's just your actions and the effects of those actions.

This is the principle on which I base my "discusion" in the "A matter of focus" thread.

It has nothing to do with wishes to the universe or anything like that. Also, I don't think of the fullfillment of personal desires, it is not about recieving something, it is about giving and creating. ... I mean, that all actions I do (in the now) have consequeces. ... How I live, how I consciously decide to live in every now, affects me and my/the world, always.

Based on this chain of entanglements, each of us holds/is the power (for any change) by watching her/his own steps.

tseuq

 

[Psykronom]

The problem is that we are not capable of seeing our past conditions clearly, so when something happens, we do not understand why. We think we did not "deserve" it, but that is not the case either. Everything that has ever happened to you, good or bad (good and bad are just interpreted by you as egoic identity and has nothing to do with what you really are which exists outside of duality) happened because of your past actions.

So when we say who is the judge? There's no judge. There's just your actions and the effects of those actions. The Buddha explained it thus:

So, are you saying that everyone are responsible for what happens to them?
Even small children?

 

[upwaysidedown]

So, are you saying that everyone are responsible for what happens to them?
Even small children?

I cannot speak for Sherlockian, but I would say yes in their own experience this is true. But from your perspective you are responsible for everything that happens to them as it is part of your experience. And from my point of view I am responsible for all that happens to all of you.

Once you get your head around general relativity, this sort of stuff is easy to rationalise .

The above therefore has no moral paradox, since although we appear to share realities we actually live each in our own to which we each are fully responsible for everything in it as we perceive it.

I speak as if it were fact, but indeed this is just the insane ramblings of my ego - but my inner self seems to be nodding. (That should be my sig, going to adjust it now)

 

[Hjortron]

No, I do not think karma is a sane and compassionate idea for the following reasons:

[YOUTUBE]

 

[upwaysidedown]

No, I do not think karma is a sane and compassionate idea for the following reasons:

I like what she says as it resonates with my experiences. I have no conscious memory of death, but the value system and the nature of the "non-physical me" as I experience it (with and without chemical help) seem consistent.

I would say though, you sound like you believe it because she said it. Her statement is not enough to warrant belief any more that any statement that anyone else makes. Listen to all, but search your experience and judge by how well it matches. By all means believe (as I do), but doubt those beliefs always.

Thing is that most beliefs limit our potential, and limit the size of our reality. So I suppose I tend to choose always non-limiting beliefs, and Karma in its "Do bad, get bad" form is limiting. It says there is fate and you must suffer, and as a basic interpretation offers no exit from that.

 

[Psykronom]

I cannot speak for Sherlockian, but I would say yes in their own experience this is true. But from your perspective you are responsible for everything that happens to them as it is part of your experience. And from my point of view I am responsible for all that happens to all of you.

Once you get your head around general relativity, this sort of stuff is easy to rationalise .

The above therefore has no moral paradox, since although we appear to share realities we actually live each in our own to which we each are fully responsible for everything in it as we perceive it.

I speak as if it were fact, but indeed this is just the insane ramblings of my ego - but my inner self seems to be nodding. (That should be my sig, going to adjust it now)

Thank you ☺
I like your answer and signature!
My belief is a little different though. I believe that the reigning force on this planet is chaos and that what happens has to do with past actions, but they happen without any meaning what so ever.

 

[Aeternus]

Karma is as real as conditioning.

 

[upwaysidedown]

Thank you ☺
I like your answer and signature!
My belief is a little different though. I believe that the reigning force on this planet is chaos and that what happens has to do with past actions, but they happen without any meaning what so ever.

If you believe past actions determine your experience, then they will. So I'm not disagreeing with you.

And others believe they cannot have happiness because the have caused negative things in the past or in a past life. I am sure this will prevent them being happy.

Limiting beliefs will limit.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

"Karma" is a very old concept that spans across many cultures, lands and time, and it means many things to many people. The core concept seems relatively unchanged, however the variations and subjectivities incorporated into the term are as varied as the many cultures and peoples that have used it.

To me, karma is an obvious and observable intrinsic part of the nature of existance, but then again I have done quite a bit of research, and listened to quite a few peoples personal opinions, and over time have formed a very defined notion of what the core concept of karma means.

-eg

 

[Sherlockian_Holmes]

The problem is that we are not capable of seeing our past conditions clearly, so when something happens, we do not understand why. We think we did not "deserve" it, but that is not the case either. Everything that has ever happened to you, good or bad (good and bad are just interpreted by you as egoic identity and has nothing to do with what you really are which exists outside of duality) happened because of your past actions.

So when we say who is the judge? There's no judge. There's just your actions and the effects of those actions. The Buddha explained it thus:

So, are you saying that everyone are responsible for what happens to them?
Even small children?

Absolutely.

From the Long Discourses of Buddha, on the fruits of the contemplative life, read:

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. Just as if there were a tall building in the central square [of a town], and a man with good eyesight standing on top of it were to see people entering a house, leaving it, walking along the street, and sitting in the central square. The thought would occur to him, 'These people are entering a house, leaving it, walking along the streets, and sitting in the central square.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma..."

The whole spiritual Path is about burning up remnant karma at an accelerated rate, creating merit by doing good deeds and through cultivation work (to work opposite of karma) when one is finally enlightened, one will burn the final remnants of karma away, and finally be completely free. Know that our True Nature is hidden behind then mask of every being, but due to our attachment and clinging on, like a broken record, we cling on.

The whole Path, whether it is Buddhism, Daoism, Islam, Christianity, Kabbalah or whatever else spiritual tradition you can think about... it's about realizing who you are right now so you move outside the five skandhas into pure liberation. There are many realms one can go to after death. Many heavens and many hells, but they're all within samsara, meaning they're all based on a degree of time and one will take birth and have death again. Only when all the fetters are cut will you be fully free.

The video posted is really only about life-themes: but that is still within karma. It is true that the enlightened nature is outside of karma: but so long as we cling and have attachments and fetters, we are still bound by karma. So strive well to realize the dharmakaya (your enlightened nature) and there will be no need to take further birth out of compulsiveness. One will have freedom of choice.

 

[Sherlockian_Holmes]

Thing is that most beliefs limit our potential, and limit the size of our reality. So I suppose I tend to choose always non-limiting beliefs, and Karma in its "Do bad, get bad" form is limiting. It says there is fate and you must suffer, and as a basic interpretation offers no exit from that.

This is wrong understanding of karma. Experiencing karma does not necessarily mean suffering. Remember, suffering is something that happens within you, that is translated and perceived by you as suffering. By filling oneself with the divine principles of joy and bliss from withdrawal of the senses, residing in the awareness, one can go through karmas without any degree of actual suffering.

It is also not true that there is no exit from suffering. The whole Noble Eightfold Path or the Eight Limbs of Yoga, or the many, many other spiritual paths work on exactly that problem. The Path to the cessation of suffering.

 

[tseuq]

It is also not true that there is no exit from suffering. The whole Noble Eightfold Path or the Eight Limbs of Yoga, or the many, many other spiritual paths work on exactly that problem. The Path to the cessation of suffering.

I think it is nothing new to most of you guys, in my opinion, suffering is something we create and keep holding on in every now. In the now, I can "only" recieve pain and suffering is the result of my subjective interpretion of what this pain/happening means to me, in my life.

Like acaian wrote in the "First dmt exp..who are the entities trying to 'alter' us?!" thread, same with suffering:

because if you are busy interpreting the visions while they are still unfolding then you are likely not perceiving them for what they really are - you would be imposing a context onto them..

In the context of "I", in the story of my little self, where rigid ideas determine the way to happieness, I can never be happy again and die lonely after a poor and sad stuggle of hopeless survival, called life. .. if holding on to this idea, well yeah, that is possible.

tseuq

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

The problem is that we are not capable of seeing our past conditions clearly, so when something happens, we do not understand why. We think we did not "deserve" it, but that is not the case either. Everything that has ever happened to you, good or bad (good and bad are just interpreted by you as egoic identity and has nothing to do with what you really are which exists outside of duality) happened because of your past actions.

So when we say who is the judge? There's no judge. There's just your actions and the effects of those actions. The Buddha explained it thus:

So, are you saying that everyone are responsible for what happens to them?
Even small children?

Absolutely.

From the Long Discourses of Buddha, on the fruits of the contemplative life, read:

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. Just as if there were a tall building in the central square [of a town], and a man with good eyesight standing on top of it were to see people entering a house, leaving it, walking along the street, and sitting in the central square. The thought would occur to him, 'These people are entering a house, leaving it, walking along the streets, and sitting in the central square.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma..."

The whole spiritual Path is about burning up remnant karma at an accelerated rate, creating merit by doing good deeds and through cultivation work (to work opposite of karma) when one is finally enlightened, one will burn the final remnants of karma away, and finally be completely free. Know that our True Nature is hidden behind then mask of every being, but due to our attachment and clinging on, like a broken record, we cling on.

The whole Path, whether it is Buddhism, Daoism, Islam, Christianity, Kabbalah or whatever else spiritual tradition you can think about... it's about realizing who you are right now so you move outside the five skandhas into pure liberation. There are many realms one can go to after death. Many heavens and many hells, but they're all within samsara, meaning they're all based on a degree of time and one will take birth and have death again. Only when all the fetters are cut will you be fully free.

The video posted is really only about life-themes: but that is still within karma. It is true that the enlightened nature is outside of karma: but so long as we cling and have attachments and fetters, we are still bound by karma. So strive well to realize the dharmakaya (your enlightened nature) and there will be no need to take further birth out of compulsiveness. One will have freedom of choice.

Great reply.

I was going to.respond to this yesterday, but was tired and had other work to do, you did a better job of articulating what I was going to say any way.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Sherlockian_Holmes wrote:
It is also not true that there is no exit from suffering. The whole Noble Eightfold Path or the Eight Limbs of Yoga, or the many, many other spiritual paths work on exactly that problem. The Path to the cessation of suffering.

I have always thought it was strange that the first Nobel truth basically says "you can not avoid suffering" while the last Nobel truth states that "suffering can be avoided through the 8-fold path"

...and while this is accurate, these are true statements, I have always just thought it sounded strange on the surface. I mean when you dig into these concepts it all makes perfect sense, but on the surface it looks funny.

Four Noble Truths
1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path





-------

As for this egotistical life cycle,
Intolerable prison,
I give up my delusion that it's a garden of delight,
Bless me to educate myself in ethics, meditation and wisdom,
The treasuries of the jewels of Nobel beings,
And raise aloft the victory banner of true liberation!

-R. Thurman;the jewel tree of Tibet;page 93

-eg

 

[Sherlockian_Holmes]

Sherlockian_Holmes wrote:
It is also not true that there is no exit from suffering. The whole Noble Eightfold Path or the Eight Limbs of Yoga, or the many, many other spiritual paths work on exactly that problem. The Path to the cessation of suffering.

I have always thought it was strange that the first Nobel truth basically says "you can not avoid suffering" while the last Nobel truth states that "suffering can be avoided through the 8-fold path"

...and while this is accurate, these are true statements, I have always just thought it sounded strange on the surface. I mean when you dig into these concepts it all makes perfect sense, but on the surface it looks funny.

Four Noble Truths
1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path

Remember that these are translations. I think sometimes dukkha is better translated as unsatisfactoriness. This is perhaps a better explanation of the Four Noble Truths:

1. Dukkha, "incapable of satisfying," painful. Life in this "mundane world," with its craving and clinging to impermanent states and things, is dukkha, unsatisfactory and painful.

2. Samudaya, the origination or arising of dukkha. Dukkha, and repeated life in this world, arises with taṇhā, "thirst," craving for and clinging to these impermanent states and things. This craving and clinging produces karma which leads to renewed becoming, keeping us trapped in rebirth and renewed dissatisfaction.

3. Niroda, the cessation of dukkha. By stopping this craving and clinging nirvana is attained, no more karma is produced, and rebirth and dissatisfaction will no longer arise again.

4. Magga, the path to the cessation of, or liberation from dukkha. By following the Noble Eightfold Path, restraining oneself, cultivating discipline, and practicing mindfulness and meditation, craving and clinging will be stopped, and rebirth and dissatisfaction are ended.

There will always be suffering/stress/unsatisfactoriness in impermanent things. Desires are part of the ego, and the ego is a raging fire that constantly wants wood to feed itself. There is no limit for how big the ego can become, so that's why your desires will never bring fulfillment. You can never put out a fire by feeding it wood.

Only by realizing the dharmakaya is the Deathless found.

In the Buddha's words, the Four Noble Truths stated thus:

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is this noble eightfold path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.