do you experience tyramine interactions with caapi or rue?

[jamie]

I am curious. I eat alot of cultured food like kimchi while comming down from ayahuasca and harmel based brews all the time and I have never had a negative food interaction this way. I have had headaches on rare occasions after ayahuasca, it was when I drank with a neck pain before hand or I had my neck in some funny position while peaking..or I had too much caffine/cacao afterwords. Never have I noticed that even after the heaviest tyramine foods that I seem to have an interaction.

Most people will say the same thing...and the data we have does not suggest that harmine and harmaline inhibit maoB at all, other than the speculation that very high doses might have slight inhibition of maoB, but not full inhibition.

Now I read in a thread on the ayahuasca forums that in polls they find that 30% of ayahuasca drinkers have negative interactions..and that sounds very weird to me as that does not reflect what I have read of people here at all. This place and the ayahuasca forums must have the largest online community of ayahuasca drinkers and drinkers of harmel based brews so I think these 2 sites are a good reflection of the general spectrum of effects of ayahuasca on a large group of people..

So, I want to know if the people here experience these interactions. I am talking about oral harmala users(from caapi and rue), not people smoking changa..

edit..I voted no

 

[ragabr]

I voted no, but conditionally. Twice I have had cheese make me exceptionally sick after aya, when I thought I was pretty much already completely baseline.

Red wine has given me amazing headaches after very strong brews of aya, just a sip or two even, again when I thought I was baseline.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I voted no...I've had headaches after one pharma session, but as that was unrelated to food (hadn't eaten anything) and probably more to the insane dose, I don't think it's relevant to the issue. I have smoked plenty of bowls of cannabis that are heaped with harmala fb (~25-150mg) on top while drinking coffee. I've never experienced anything that would lead me to believe I'm having interactions between RIMAs and tyramine.

 

[jamie]

I voted no, but conditionally. Twice I have had cheese make me exceptionally sick after aya, when I thought I was pretty much already completely baseline.

Red wine has given me amazing headaches after very strong brews of aya, just a sip or two even, again when I thought I was baseline.

That is interesting...have you ever had the cheese or wine after without an interaction or does this happen every time?

 

[nen888]

..i think it really depends to what extent one is MAO inhibiting..there isn't just On/Off..much higher levels of inhibition can occur than the standard 3-5grams P. harmala type dose..such brews still fall short of harmala-overdose as, with a clean system, they do not cause toxic effects on their own..
..i voted yes, based particularly on higher harmala-dose ayahuasca brews designed to emulate some amazonian brews..i.e approx. three times the amount of harmala required to activate tryptamines, and the DMT kept constant at about 30-40mg..
..in several people various cheeses (ingested as the ayahuascan effects were diminishing) resulted in nausea and, in the case of cottage cheese, increased visions and pins-&-needles sensations in the limbs..
..1-2 glasses red wine lead to severe headache in one person, and liver ache for two days in myself..none of this happens without the MAOIs...

i don't think tyramine is as dangerous with MAOIs as stated in old literature, however there are some toxic amines in other foods which may be (lentils, chick peas)

ps. i don't quite understand why you voted 'no' ragabar..?

 

[joedirt]

I voted no, but conditionally. Twice I have had cheese make me exceptionally sick after aya, when I thought I was pretty much already completely baseline.

Red wine has given me amazing headaches after very strong brews of aya, just a sip or two even, again when I thought I was baseline.

I voted maybe...
Both alcohol and sushi (soy sauce) have given me bad bad headaches after an experience.

Alcohol is a no-no for me from now on. I just don't like the way it combines with psychs.

 

[tigerstrike92]

I can not speak for caapi, but I have taken rue three times.

Two out of the three times, all I had in my stomach was some ramen, and no interaction was felt at all.

The third time was a little different though. I did not observe any diet with it whatsoever, and it was a much more nauseous ride until la purga, after which i felt fine. But when coming down, near baseline, I drank an energy drink. I'm not sure if it was the caffeine, or a different ingredient, but almost immediately I got a dull headache that lasted into the next day. Not terrible, just slightly annoying.

 

[jamie]

^that is typical for me of caffine after ayahuasca, especially the ammounts that would be found in an energy drink..cacao will do it also if I have more than like 1/4 of a flat teaspoon worth after a journey. It can make me feel way speedy, also mescaline like but with bad headache. A bowl of miso though 4 hours after 100g of caapi has never bothered me..

 

[jamie]

..i think it really depends to what extent one is MAO inhibiting..there isn't just On/Off..much higher levels of inhibition can occur than the standard 3-5grams P. harmala type dose..such brews still fall short of harmala-overdose as, with a clean system, they do not cause toxic effects on their own..
..i voted yes, based particularly on higher harmala-dose ayahuasca brews designed to emulate some amazonian brews..i.e approx. three times the amount of harmala required to activate tryptamines, and the DMT kept constant at about 30-40mg..
..in several people various cheeses (ingested as the ayahuascan effects were diminishing) resulted in nausea and, in the case of cottage cheese, increased visions and pins-&-needles sensations in the limbs..
..1-2 glasses red wine lead to severe headache in one person, and liver ache for two days in myself..none of this happens without the MAOIs...

i don't think tyramine is as dangerous with MAOIs as stated in old literature, however there are some toxic amines in other foods which may be (lentils, chick peas)

ps. i don't quite understand why you voted 'no' ragabar..?

So how much rue would you typically use to emulate a traditional brew? 5g is alot of rue for me with the rue I have and maybe the highest I went in a night has been 6 grams give or take, and that was within a 2 hour period not all at once..I am still getting the feel for higher dose rue though as I have far more experience with caapi in large doses..with caapi I usually drink 80-100g, and minxx has on occasion gone up to 175g of caapi and still had tyramine foods without problems..

I do prefer a brew heavy on harmalas and light on the DMT. I think that alot of people here have no idea what a traditional brew is like..when I hear of people needing 7g of mimosa etc...the different between 50g of caapi and 100+g is ALOT, and at 100g+ of caapi 1 or 2 grams of mimosa can really floor me with full color visions for a few solid where 50g of caapi I might actaully need 4-5g of mimosa to get near that level, but then the harmala space is not as present..and I like the harmala space..with a touch of light..

I should have made another poll choice that said "yes, when larger doses of harmalas are consumed"..that might help paint a better picture of what is going on here.

 

[nen888]

..7-10 grams P. harmala (or 150-250grams caapi) plus 30-40mg dmt (or plant equivalent) .. such brews are not for the dietarily uncautious or novices..
using larger amounts of dmt with less harmalas is, to me, not as like the amazonian 'shamanic' brews i experienced a few times, and less 'jungle'..
it's great, thanks, that you're doing this survey jamie...

 

[lyserge]

I voted maybe...I got very sick (diarrhea/vomitting for two days) after eating a scoop or so of cookie dough ice cream, ten days after returning from the Upper Amazon - and I drank the caapi brew 5 times there. The aftereffects of the ayahuasca were quickly deadened after eating the ice cream. I had a very uncomfortable experience chewing a small amount of coca leaf after one of the drinking sessions - I had hoped the coca would numb the stomach pain, but the pain was exacerbated and my heartbeat began to race, as if the ayahuasca alkaloids potentiated the coca alkaloids. In this instance, however, I did not have a headache or other accompanying symptoms.

 

[ragabr]

That is interesting...have you ever had the cheese or wine after without an interaction or does this happen every time?

Haven't tried it since. Next time I drink, I'll have some wine coming down and see (don't ever want to repeat the cheese experiences, even for science).

ps. i don't quite understand why you voted 'no' ragabar..?

Because I've had plenty of other items on the watch list, like beer, soy and miso without any issue.

 

[nen888]

^..soy and miso only have very trace tyramine, as far as i know..beer varies..but the difference in tyramine levels could explain this difference..we would need to be sure of the tyramine levels to be sure of such conclusions..

..Even consuming as little as 6 to 8 mg of tyramine can increase your blood pressure and heart rate.
Cheese
Aged cheeses contain tyramine. A 1 oz. portion of New York cheddar cheese contains 42 mg of tyramine and a 1 oz. portion of Canadian cheddar cheese contains 43 mg of tyramine. Other aged cheeses with high amounts of tyramine include Swiss cheese, Stilton, Camembert, Muenster, Mozzarella, blue cheese and Gorgonzola cheese. Processed cheese, such as American cheese, contains 0.2 to 1.6 mg of tyramine per 1 oz. serving and can be eaten in small quantities when following a low-tyramine diet.
Alcohol
As fermented beverages, some alcoholic drinks contain high amounts of tyramine. A 12 oz. serving of tap beer contains 38 mg of tyramine. Vermouth, Korean beer, Chianti red wine, sherry and liquers also contain high amounts of tyramine. A 4 oz. serving of red wine contains 0 to 0.6 mg of tyramine, and bottled or canned beer contains 1.5 mg of tyramine.
Meat
Aged meats also contain tyramine. A 1 oz. serving of aged chicken livers contains 60 mg of tyramine. Sausage, salami, hot dogs, bacon, corned beef, duck liver, pickled herring, smoked fish and caviar all contains high amounts of tyramine. A 1 oz. serving of pepperoni contains 1.75 mg of tyramine. Meats prepared with a meat tenderizer also contains tyramine.
Produce
Fermented, overripe and spoiled fruits and vegetables can contain tyramine. A 4 oz. serving of sauerkraut contains 3.5 to 14 mg of tyramine. Kim chee, fava beans, broad beans, pickles, olives and avocado also contain tyramine. Fermented soy, such as tempeh and tofu, also contain tyramine. Raspberries and figs contain very small amounts of tyramine.
Condiments
A 2 tbsp. serving of a yeast extract, such as Vegemite, contains 1.5 to 34 mg of tyramine. One tsp. of soy sauce contains 0.05 to 4.7 mg of tyramine. Thai and Vietnamese fish sauces and teriyaki sauce also contain tyramine.
Miscellaneous Foods
Other foods with tyramine include gravies, meat extracts used in soups, ginseng and chocolate. Colas, coffee or teas with caffeine also contain high amounts of tyramine. Hot chocolate is also a source of tyramine.

Read more: [10 Foods High in Tyramine to Limit if You're on MAOIs | Livestrong.com]

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[joedirt]

Nen. I wouldn't put to much weight in literature reported values of tyramine. Not because I think they are wrong. But because I think every human has a totally different sensitivity level. Actually I guess measure levels would still be important.

Without a doubt I've noticed bad interactions (well bad meaning noticeable headaches...in one case two day's long) after eating sushi...which I use a lot of soy sauce.

Also I should note that the alcohol has been both beer (Imported mostly) and red wine. Both cases have generated long lasting headaches.

When I do aya with a few day's after no alcohol or tyramine heavy foods it's a non issue. Not scientific, but my oen subjective opinion.

Peace.



BTW Jamie...good thread. Much needed IMHO.

 

[nen888]

joetdirt wrote:

Nen. I wouldn't put to much weight in literature reported values of tyramine. Not because I think they are wrong. But because I think every human has a totally different sensitivity level. Actually I guess measure levels would still be important.

..yeah, sure..i said earlier i don't think it's as problematic as older literature suggests, just would be good to have a better idea of actual levels..
..found a few interesting comments (regarding prescribed MAOIs) [CNS Spectrums | Cambridge Core]

Due to this potential danger of a hypertensive crisis from a tyramine reaction in patients taking an irreversible MAOI...various myths have arisen surrounding the amount of tyramine in certain foods and which dietary restrictions are necessary. The “cheese reaction” has led to the myth that all cheese must be restricted. This is not the case, as only aged cheeses (eg, English Stilton) are high in tyramine, whereas most processed cheeses or those utilized on commercial chain pizzas do not contain high levels of tyramine.
Another myth is that patients on an MAOI must avoid all wine and beer. Canned and bottled beer are low in tyramine, and many wines, including Chianti, contain low levels of tyramine...Generally, only draft and unpasteurized beers should be avoided. Thus, unless someone taking an irreversible inhibitor of MAO-A is going to eat 25–100 pieces of standard pizza or drink 25–100 glasses of most wines or 25–100 cans or bottles of most beers at a party, it is likely that they can still have a moderate amount of fun.

Two recent developments appear to mitigate the risk of tyramine reactions with MAOIs. First, inhibitors have been developed that are not only selective for MAO-A, but are also reversible. Second, an MAOI can now be delivered through a skin patch, resulting in inhibition of both MAO-A and MAO-B in the brain, but with much less MAO-A simultaneously inhibited in the gut. While neither of these innovations enhances MAOI efficacy, both reduce the risk of a hypertensive crisis with ingestion of tyramine.

..i know lots of you may already know much of this, but i present it for general information..
high harmala dose ayahuasca, however, has presented dietary problems for myself and others in the past, which i wouldn't wish on anyone...

 

[Shaolin]

joedirt, I agree with nen. Even if sensitivity level varies it's good to know what's the actual content.

Pics&papers attached.

 

[Awakened]

I voted no. I have been micro dosing 30mg every day with no ill effects. I am a vegetarian though so meat is never consumed and I don't drink much. I avoid aged cheese though and caffeine

I sometimes get a minor headache after smoking Harmalas infused changa, but don’t know what a brew would do, perhaps a stronger headache?

 

[Doodazzle]

I was dosing rue every day for a couple months, from 1/4 a gram to 1 gram rue per day. I was doing this in prep for my first psuedohuasca. I was also on a raw vegan diet for most of that time. One day I had some sharp cheddar and advocado, followed by a headache and stomache ache.

Oh yea, I had nutritional yeast that day also.

So I'd say maybe, but it's a slim enough maybe that I almost want to vote "no". I'd like to try that again--I like taking the rue daily, but I am not trying to spend my whole life avoiding tyramines. As such, I'd love to get to the bottum of this.

 

[nen888]

..great list shaolin..

..i think maybe, as you suggested earlier jamie, there should be a separate category for high-dose-harmala interactions..and micro-dosing would be a third category again, where we would expect almost no negative food interactions..

i can really relate to lysergify's comments regarding breaking dieta after some amazonian style brews:

I voted maybe...I got very sick (diarrhea/vomitting for two days) after eating a scoop or so of cookie dough ice cream, ten days after returning from the Upper Amazon - and I drank the caapi brew 5 times there. The aftereffects of the ayahuasca were quickly deadened after eating the ice cream. I had a very uncomfortable experience chewing a small amount of coca leaf after one of the drinking sessions - I had hoped the coca would numb the stomach pain, but the pain was exacerbated and my heartbeat began to race, as if the ayahuasca alkaloids potentiated the coca alkaloids. In this instance, however, I did not have a headache or other accompanying symptoms.

..i think there are other compounds potentially more troublesome than tyramine, especially at higher ß-carb doses..
.

 

[jamie]

I should mention that I eat a raw vegan diet so meat and dairy(cheese) is not ever in my diet and I never drink alcohol. I do eat cultured foods though like unpasturized miso and kimchi..I eat alot of avacados and other really ripe fruits but I doubt they have enough tyramine to really be much concern..I dunno about kimchi..but my diet could play a role in why I dont have side effecs..same goes for minxx.