Hi Infundibulum
I thought long about answering your post. I'm going to do it just because the topic is very serious. And a casual reader of this topic may get the idea with some of the opinions expressed here that it is pretty much safe to go for 5-MeO-DMT orally with a MAOI. It is not safe, not even at the same doses used in smoking or vaporizing.
This said, I'm going to dissect a couple of your comments
Infundibulum said:
Do you people ever read the scientific papers or just scan through the title and the abstract and then go to make your conclusions? It is very important to at least read the studies whose results you wish to cite. The authors injected fairly big amounts of 5-meo (20mg/kg, that is 1500mg for an average person and different from the average dose, no?) in mice intraperitoneally (= different from oral, no?) as well as they assessed the 5meo->bufo conversion in in vitro liver cell culture, and an artificial system (that is, the 5meo->bufo metabolism of a transgenic mouse that bears the human CYP2D6 enzyme)
Well, having a PhD and doing actual research in a related area, helps getting through the paper without a fuss!
What I ask you Infundibulum is, if everything is so biased, why bother doing this research at all. Why spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in materials and equipment to do something totally useless? More, if everything is such rubbish (as you imply), why would a very reputable journal as Biochemical Pharmacology (with an ISI Impact Factor of 4.8!) publish it? The authors and the reviewers are probably out of their minds, for sure! It would help to actually read the paper in full to understand the conclusions. Some of the objections you put are correct but without the context are just disinformation. Sometimes scientists have to work with models (being in vitro or in vivo models, like working with mice or rats, or microssomes) as it is dangerous to do the actual tests in humans. Sometimes concentrations of substances must be different because animals do not have the same sensitivity as humans (mice have LD50 for bufotenine of 200 mg!). Also, as you probably know, or should know, in vitro study subjects cannot have the same substance concentration levels as in vivo, for the biological membranes act as dynamic regulators of homeostatic processes, increasing or decreasing concentrations for determined substances (the BBB is an extreme example of such a system). This method of working, even with its flaws, allows for scientists to ground their experiences and derive most of the times correct assumptions. This, I do believe it is the case.
5-MeO-DMT has a markedly different profile in the brain than 5-HO-DMT. That's a fact. But why is it that when taken orally with a MAOI several of the symptoms are markedly similar to bufotenine intoxications? The model argued and (hopefully) demonstrated by the authors explains it. As 5-MeO-DMT enters the GI tract with a MAOI it is not depleted and is progressively released to the blood. As it goes through the liver it gets demethylated into 5-HO-DMT and showing the adverse body reactions (extreme vasoconstriction, dyspnea and seisures, among others) typical of this substance. Why it does not happen with other ROA like vaporization? I have never seen it written but my guess is that 5-MeO-DMT enters the lungs and the blood being pumped by the heart directly into the brain (5-MeO-DMT should pass easily the BBB), showing then the typical 5-MeO-DMT effects
Infundibulum said:
All the elegant observations made by the authors are definitely different from oral administration. Vastly different I may say. In this respect, 69ron is very correct in exercising some caution.
I apologize but I must disagree. Of course one should get the facts. But having an unknown powder extract from a plant, without any quantitative measurement by any of the standard methods (as GC/MS) does not not makes it the truth. If 69ron (or you, or anyone here) has tested the effects of oral bufotenine and 5-Meo-DMT coming from a lab, that would be totally different
I may add that if controlled experiences could be performed with these substances, who knows, we might write a paper together!
Infundibulum said:
[...]
Please be careful with the facts.
Always!
I need to stress the first point I made in the beginning of this longer than expected post.
No one should ingest lab grade 5-MeO-DMT with a MAOI. People can die from it! On the other hand if you extract
"5-MeO-DMT" from chaliponga it should be pretty safe as it probably does not contain a single measurable milligram of the substance (it may contain other alkaloids though).