Does too low a PH degrade DMT? (Experiment)

[sleepermustawaken]

I took 1.28 grams of dmt-fumarate and basified with sodium carb and then dumped about 100-200 mls of hydrochloric acid in about 300mls of water.

I boiled for 2 hours on low-medium.

The acid stripped teflon away from my non-stick pot and I was left with a greyish water. :shock:

I based with Lye and pulled 3 times with Naphtha.

evapping

Results to be continued

 

[Nereus]

Would you be kind enough to elaborate a little upon why are you conducting such experiments anyway?What you are trying to do does not make any sence whatsoever!
Why would you base,acidify and base again all in one solution?And upon all boil also?
What is the reason for all this?:?:

 

[Nereus]

Complicating things in these ways is just asking for trouble,presenting risk to your health and above all messing with precious plant resources that should be treated with respect.I advise you review your behaviour regarding these matters,and keep in mind there are solid reasons for which most of the methods around here are kept simple..please keep them that way too!

 

[sleepermustawaken]

Would you be kind enough to elaborate a little upon why are you conducting such experiments anyway?What you are trying to do does not make any sence whatsoever!
Why would you base,acidify and base again all in one solution?And upon all boil also?
What is the reason for all this?
:?:

I don't see how this can't make sense to you.

Let me put it this way, if Newton never began learning physics do you think we would understand gravity the way we do? It is by these kinds of experiments that we learn and grow.

Dmt-fumarate when dissolved is dmt-fumarate so I based make freebase and then convert freebase to dmt-hcl. I was unsure whether dmt-fumarate would convert to dmt-hcl as they are both salts.

I am choosing this experiment because there is no stable conclusion on the matter and there is a demand for it's knowledge even if just on my part. See threads:

PH keeps reseting during acid cook - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Double concentrate Vinegar - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Is too low a ph a problem? - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Personally it could mean the end to people using PH detection methods as you might not need them at all if a low ph didn't present any problem. But it seems it did so now we know. Nothing ventured nothing gained

 

[sleepermustawaken]

Complicating things in these ways is just asking for trouble,presenting risk to your health and above all messing with precious plant resources that should be treated with respect.I advise you review your behaviour regarding these matters,and keep in mind there are solid reasons for which most of the methods around here are kept simple..please keep them that way too!

I am not complicating anything? Why are you so pessimestic towards people who only want to help the nexus with valuable information?

You talk about wasting materials is disrespectful, though that doesn't really seem logical at all seeing as it is for the cause of benefiting a community dedicating to using science as a tool for a desired outcome.

Using your logic it would be like saying, "don't build that large hadron collider because uhm, your wasting valuable recources from the earth that should be treated with respect".

Do you follow me now? Do you see how flawed that logic is?

I don't understand some people around here, you try and help out and you just end with negative illogical remarks.

 

[Nereus]

The information you are looking for already exists on the interwebs,don't get me wrong,but at this stage i honestly think that enough research has been done and made public so maybe i find some experiments quite unusefull when it comes to certain compounds,yes.In conclusion i'm saying that there are enough places to lurk around that will answer your queries without the need of product loss...or else we just cut down trees,yeah why not people,let's cut down some more

 

[Nereus]

And for what it's worth,honestly..look more within..don't build a particle colider,there is no need for such a thing!:!:

 

[Nereus]

Also sleeper,in my pov using some of these extracts creates a powerfull connection to other realms and worlds of nature.

I wouldn't want my final product anywhere near to as processed as possible,or refined or whatever method you might administer it to look at it through the cold eye of science. I'd like to have it as raw as possible,healthy as in uncontamined by reagents and other dangerous chemicals,extracted as fast as possible with the least possible degradation,and stored in small amounts in suitable conditions for short periods of time,use it wise,gain whatever it has to offer,and try to keep it as simple as possible.

The question here is,and maybe you already got your answer, even if you are the more rational inclined person, don't you think magic strips away or spirits run from it when you do such things to it?

I'd say extracting it is already somewhat violent towards the plants and you want to conduct more experiments?

Do so if that pleases you..I just find it wrong:?

 

[NotTwo]

I took 1.28 grams of dmt-fumarate and basified with sodium carb and then dumped about 100-200 mls of hydrochloric acid in about 300mls of water.

I boiled for 2 hours on low-medium.

The acid stripped teflon away from my non-stick pot and I was left with a greyish water. :shock:

I based with Lye and pulled 3 times with Naphtha.

evapping

Results to be continued

I'm guessing you're trying to convert fumarate to freebase, sleeper??

Once you basify the fumarate you have your freebase. Just a matter of warming it then doing some pulls with non polar solvent of your choice.

The only justification for doing an intermediate A/B would be if it contained a lot of impurities that you thought would pass to the NPS layer. I don't know what state your fumarate is in.

I'll stay clear of the hadron collider and plant respect discussion for now :d

 

[sleepermustawaken]

I took 1.28 grams of dmt-fumarate and basified with sodium carb and then dumped about 100-200 mls of hydrochloric acid in about 300mls of water.

I boiled for 2 hours on low-medium.

The acid stripped teflon away from my non-stick pot and I was left with a greyish water. :shock:

I based with Lye and pulled 3 times with Naphtha.

evapping

Results to be continued

I'm guessing you're trying to convert fumarate to freebase, sleeper??

Once you basify the fumarate you have your freebase. Just a matter of warming it then doing some pulls with non polar solvent of your choice.

The only justification for doing an intermediate A/B would be if it contained a lot of impurities that you thought would pass to the NPS layer. I don't know what state your fumarate is in.

I'll stay clear of the hadron collider and plant respect discussion for now :d

No? Did you miss the entire thread topic? I was trying to see if a low ph destroys DMT and was unsure whether dmt-fumarate converted to dmt-hcl in water so a i based it to make sure.

 

[sleepermustawaken]

The information you are looking for already exists on the interwebs,don't get me wrong,but at this stage i honestly think that enough research has been done and made public so maybe i find some experiments quite unusefull when it comes to certain compounds,yes.In conclusion i'm saying that there are enough places to lurk around that will answer your queries without the need of product loss...or else we just cut down trees,yeah why not people,let's cut down some more :|

Really? I couldn't find it anywhere and nor could the other people I was talking to on this forum. If you have a direct link to the evidence I would appreciate it and so would others I think. The very fact that I couldn't find the evidence just demonstrates that you are incorrect in thinking that enough research has been done so that these experiments are unusefull, if you were correct I would have found some information on here and so would have the other users I conversed with.

And for what it's worth,honestly..look more within..don't build a particle colider,there is no need for such a thing!

Pretty sure most scientists would shun you for that comment, I agree with you though to some extent. but if people just looked inside I doubt we would have cars... or even for that matter we wouldn't be talking to each other. So it is a bit of a naive claim to say it is unworthy especially when you don't have any evidence that "looking inside" will generate something more practical than technological advance, subjective advance sure but not technological which is paramount to our survival (solar upsets etc.)

Also sleeper,in my pov using some of these extracts creates a powerfull connection to other realms and worlds of nature.. The question here is,and mybe you already got your answer..even if you are the more rational inclined person..don;t you think magic strips away or spirits run from it when you do such things to it?I'd say extracting it is already somewhat violent towards the plants..and you want to conduct more experiments?Do so if that pleases you..i just find it wrong..

You are inclined to believe what you like about whether plant spirits exist within matter, however as far as it is understood by science n-n-dimethyltryptamine is active and works when it is pure. As for the other alkaloids like nmt, dmt-oxide, b-carbolines and other unkown jungles whether that adds to the spiritual trip is a personal preferance. I am not sure how extracting is violent towards plants as the plant matter is already dead and some would argue 'dead' to begin with (most assume plants arn't concious and have good reason to as there is no evidence).

I don't mind your spiritual talk about the plants healing qualities etc. I am not inclined to believe one over the other but for purposes of practicality then rationality and science dominates. You may think it is wrong but you are in the minority and you have insufficient grounds for believing such things also (your personal experiences & beliefs don't qualify as evidence), just let me remind you of that.

Hope that didn't come across too harsh:thumb_up:

 

[Nereus]

I apreciate your strong will in regard to science..while you do so i remain a convinced naturalist,and don;t forget your scientist had to be firstly a naturalist in order to have something to prove/demonstrate..where would have science been without nature?

In regard to plants not being conscious well i have to contradict your statement and recommend you do more research in botany as a science.There is consciousness even in the simplest life forms on the planet,science fact non fiction,everything is alive but not everything is self aware.

 

[NotTwo]

I was trying to see if a low ph destroys DMT and was unsure whether dmt-fumarate converted to dmt-hcl in water so a i based it to make sure.

Ah, got you.

There's no reason chemically that boiling with an acid should destroy the tryptamine structure. Any available amines will be converted to the equivalent quaternary ammonium salt which will then revert to the amine upon basification.

Get those humble, loving vibes going whatever annoyances you are facing

 

[Nereus]

Dmt-fumarate is already a salt form,also is acetate,citrate,tartrate,maleate and so forth.Salts are stable,more stable than the freebases.I am no chemist but surely some will chime in and clear things out.In my opinion if you wanted to conduct a safe minimal loss experiment you would have approached it the way everyone does around here;dissolve fumarates in water,base acidic water with na2co3,wait for precipitates to occur,filter out precipitates,dissolve in hcl,heat up if you want to,base again,pull,collect precipitates if any,then draw your conclusions.Whereas what you have done,from what i understand in your explanation,is combine all these chems in one soln,heating it up,converting from base to acid with different chems..have you thought of some byproducts getting formed in there?could that be the problem you are facing ?

 

[pitubo]

Hi sleepermustawaken, nice to see you experimenting with enthusiasm!

There are some remarks that I would like to make, I hope you see the criticisms as constructive.
- In general, when doing an experiment, safety is paramount. An experiment can always be repeated, but fingers and eyes can't be regrown! Take worst case scenarios in account.
- For boiling concentrated hydrochloric acid, you really should use laboratory glassware equipped with a reflux cooler. Ideally this should also be done in a fume hood or at least outside, in case something goes wrong, like breaking the glass. In your current experiment you only managed to destroy a kitchen pan, but this contaminated the experiment, which is not good.
- You should be more exact in your descriptions, like: what concentration of hydrochloric acid did you use, how much water did you dilute it with (and why?)
- No need at all to freebase the fumarate salt. When dmt fumarate dissolves, the dmt and fumarate ions will dissociate anyway.
- Like it is advised to start small when learning extractions, perhaps the same should be said with learning experiments. If you need to run the experiment a few times again to get it right, you'll be burning through a heap of dmt if you put in a gram each time.

Also sleeper,in my pov using some of these extracts creates a powerfull connection to other realms and worlds of nature..I wouldn't want my final product anywhere near to as processed as possible,or refined or whatever method you might administer it to look at it through the cold eye of science..i;d like to have it as raw as possible,healthy as in uncontamined by reagents and other dangerous chemicals,extracted as fast as possible with the least possible degradation,and stored in small amounts in siutable conditions for short periods of time,use it wise,gain whatever it has to offer,and try to keep it as simple as possible.

Hello Nereus, that is your point of view. Don't tell others that they must agree. Or even to respect it if you are unable to respect their "cold scientific" views yourself.

Please stop trying to shame them away from a potentially useful experiment on such dubious grounds like "not having respect for the plant". Sleepermustawaken is actually trying to pin down if his highly acidified boiling technique is negatively affecting the outcome of his extraction and thereby wasting plant material. So the goal of the experiment is actually to reduce future waste of precious plant material.

If you think that the answer to his question is easily found on the internet, could you please point us to those answers. I would be much obliged. Thanks in advance.

Using highly purified dmt (or even synthetic dmt) also seems to create powerful effects. Besides, did you know that very often, plants contain dangerous chemicals too?

 

[sleepermustawaken]

Dmt-fumarate is already a salt form,also is acetate,citrate,tartrate,maleate and so forth.Salts are stable,more stable than the freebases.I am no chemist but surely some will chime in and clear things out.In my opinion if you wanted to conduct a safe minimal loss experiment you would have aproached it the way everyone does around here;dissolve fumarates in water,base acidic water with na2co3,wait for precipitates to occur,filter out precipitates,dissolve in hcl,heat up if you want to,base again,pull,collect precipitates if any,then draw your conclusions.Whereas what you have done,from what i understand in your explanation,is combine all these chems in one soln,heating it up,converting from base to acid whith different chems..have you thought of some biproducts getting formed in there?could that be the problem you are facing ?

Look, there is nothing wrong with what I did. When you basify dmt-fumarate it converts to freebase which is in the solution but not dissolved. You also have fumaric acid which is not soluble in water. Then you take hcl and that dissolves the freebase rendering sodium carb mute. then you boil, cool, then base. It is completely unessecary to filter solids etc. as u suggest. there are no biproducts that form. Can you answer where dmt-fumarate converts to dmt-hcl in water?

 

[sleepermustawaken]

I apreciate your strong will in regard to science..while you do so i remain a convinced naturalist,and don;t forget your scientist had to be firstly a naturalist in order to have something to prove/demonstrate..where would have science been without nature?

In regard to plants not being conscious well i have to contradict your statement and recommend you do more research in botany as a science.There is consciousness even in the simplest life forms on the planet,science fact non fiction,everything is alive but not everything is self aware.

A naturalist doesn't believe in things that are not natural. Spirits are not natural they are imaginary. That means to say that at this current time in our understanding of the cosmos spirits only occur to us in our minds (imaginary). They do not have objective existance as we can determine. Better to call your self a supernaturalist, or newagebullshitartist.. jjks ppl who do talk about spirits and folklore and magic do tend to be thought of as irrational people though, not my opinion... just something I have observed in reductionistic western society. I believe in things that can't be proved by science too so I suppose they could call me that too.

As for plants, I agree they are conscious and I ment to say they are not self aware when I said not conscious. But things that are not self-aware do not feel. You could say a computer is conscious because its behaviour is exactly alike in anology to a plant, yet could you say it feels? No, there is no harm in hurting things that can not feel when for the purpose of A HIGHER ORDER... namely what you do when u go to hyperspace, learn, share, grow expand... a higher purpose than a stupid conscious machine that does not feel.

What is wrong with that outlook? I don't buy it conmpletely I'll have you know

 

[sleepermustawaken]

Hi sleepermustawaken

Thnx pitubo a much needed comment, will take in your advice for next time.

 

[Nereus]

A naturalist doesn't believe in things that are not natural. Spirits are not natural they are imaginary. That means to say that at this current time in our understanding of the cosmos spirits only occur to us in our minds (imaginary). They do not have objective existance as we can determine. Better to call your self a supernaturalist, or newagebullshitartist.. jjks ppl who do talk about spirits and folklore and magic do tend to be thought of as irrational people though, not my opinion... just something I have observed in reductionistic western society. I believe in things that can't be proved by science too so I suppose they could call me that too.

As for plants, I agree they are conscious and I ment to say they are not self aware when I said not conscious. But things that are not self-aware do not feel. You could say a computer is conscious because its behaviour is exactly alike in anology to a plant, yet could you say it feels? No, there is no harm in hurting things that can not feel when for the purpose of A HIGHER ORDER... namely what you do when u go to hyperspace, learn, share, grow expand... a higher purpose than a stupid conscious machine that does not feel.

Kind of a blunt point of view on the above matters. The world is fed up by "scientists" that are unable to recycle their trash, plant at least as much trees as they cut down and respect the planet as it is not "ours", never was and never will be.Imo the animals and plant reign have more rights than we do at the moment. The reverse of symbiosis is parasitism... guess your way of viewing things is not far from that but I'll refrain my mumbling in this here antithesis.

Good look with that

 

[Nereus]

For what is worth, the dignity in me encourages me to apologise for being a party pooper. Who am I in actuality to dictate what people should or should not do? Please do what you do but just remember you are not alone living human life on this here floating through space rock.

Last but not least with experience comes wisdom. I am positive that sooner than ever maybe you will find greater things that resonate with you on top of that static meaningless materialistic world view. After all, they say that science and spirituality were one in the beginning.

All the best and sorry for the mess :thumb_up: